Some people may have seen my earlier thread about my proposed Large size Minotaur race, well I'm finished! I've also used the same basic framework to make a Large sized Troll race along similar lines, plus some support feats, and may make more in future, so I've decided to gather them together in a new thread rather than to try and re-edit the other one.
Common Traits
My Large sized races have several traits in common, these are the basics of how I've made something Large:
Powerful: These races are intentionally stronger than medium sized ones, but hopefully not so much that they feel like a no-brainer. Depending on sub-race you will have as many as 4 points of ability score increases, and also increased maximums for one or more ability scores. The Minotaur for example has +2 to STR and CON, and can get to STR and CON of 22 without magic items.
Fearsome Reputation: This is the main balancing factor to the increased power, as it makes dealing with most races socially more difficult, and the DM is encouraged to push back against heavily optimised Large characters.
Large Creature: This is really just a convenient summary of what being Large means, since rules for size are all over the place in the player's handbook. Also some suggestions for DM's on accounting for size, as a Minotaur should absolutely have a harder time hiding behind (or disguising themselves as) a potted plant than a Halfling.
Large Weapons: Large characters have a penalty on light medium sized weapons, can wield one two-handed or versatile medium sized weapon in one hand, can wield Large weapons at DM's discretion, either found on monsters or crafted. Includes a basic homebrew for crafting (double cost and weight, +2 damage or reach for a basic weapon, penalties for medium or smaller to use).
Races
Brute Minotaur: STR/CON boost with nasty horn charging and intimidation. Sub Races: Herdborn (nomad) and Labyrinthine (underground).
Brute Troll: CON boost with vicious claws and regeneration (short-resting in combat). Sub Races: Cave, Fire, Forest, Ice.
Feats
Gentle Giant (Large): CHA bonus. Partial counter to Fearsome Reputation. At start of combat can take no hostile action for an attack bonus later.
Heavy Duty (Large): INT or WIS bonus + tool proficiency. Can do large crafting faster/cheaper.
Bellow of the Minotaur: Minotaur only (doesn't have to be Large). CON + cross between Dragon Fear and Dissonant Whispers.
Flesh Eater: Available for anyone, but appropriate for feral/evil Minotaur or Troll.
Troll's Reach: Troll only (doesn't have to be Large). DEX + Reach on claws, and can grapple as a reaction.
I'd love some feedback on these; I've tried to keep them as straightforward as possible, and to keep the layouts as clean as I can despite the relatively high number of total traits a Large player will end up with, and the associated notes that go with them.
I've done some test sessions to see how they play and I think they're a blast, but not overpowered, though they do require a proactive DM who will push back against abuse (though this is true with any race). A DM should let a Large player feel powerful at times, but should also emphasise the disadvantages with hostile towns, confined spaces and other challenges to overcome that an all medium/small party wouldn't struggle with.
how does such an race interact when weilding an medium versatile weapon in one hand? Also you should probably specify that the damage from the horns is limted to when you attack with them using the attack action on your turn, becuase RN an minotaur monk could dish out some silly amounts of damage with their horns since they can use an bonus action to make an unarmed strike after using the attack action to attack with an monk weapon, having to specify in the race description that the campaign needs to be sulpted in such a manner as to prevent abuse / to make shure their limitations even out seems a bit weird also
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I… forgot all about versatile while writing the Large Weapon rule! I mean really there's no reason for a Large creature to use one when they could just use a Two-handed weapon one-handed instead, but that doesn't mean they won't ever be in a situation where they need to (it's the only weapon available or the best they have proficiency in); I'd say you can use it two-handed in one hand in the same way. It's unfortunately a very tricky one to correct, I'll just have to add it as a comment for now, as updating homebrew parent races is annoying.
On Minotaur horns for a Monk, I'm not sure this is actually too unbalanced; a Ravnica Minotaur can use their horns on all unarmed strikes (not just one per turn), and the Large Minotaur's horns don't increase in damage until 8th and 16th levels which is when Monks start to plateau a bit in terms of damage anyway, and there's a lot of competition for a Monk's bonus action so I don't think it's too abusable. It might be more of a problem if a player takes a level in Monk just for the unarmed strike so they can use the horns instead; on that basis I'd like to implement your suggested change, but I'm going to have to hold off for the same reason as versatile.
As for DM pushback; the Large races are intentionally a bit stronger than regular sized races, and they definitely have potential to be abused, but heaping more direct penalties onto them just wasn't fun, as it either ended up making them weirdly bad at some aspects of combat, or extra hopeless outside of combat. For the Large Creature rule it's more about reminding a DM what the implications of having a Large player are, while for Feared Reputation these two races are both monstrous in nature (even if the player plays them as cuddly giants, NPCs might not see them that way), and if a player is going around overly abusing large creature bonuses (such as the horns) then it's the ideal time for the DM to turn around and say "the townsfolk call for the guard at the sight of a blood-soaked minotaur heading their way". This isn't necessarily unique to Large races as such, as DM's need to balance out their players anyway (give magic items to a weak player, reign in a well optimised one, make sure fights let everyone be a badass at least some of the time etc.), it's just intended as advice for where a DM might balance out an overall strong race while fitting the theme.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep the "once per Attack action" change and Versatile clarification in the back pocket for now, as updating parent races with sub-races on DDB is currently a nightmare (it doesn't copy or link the existing sub-races, meaning you have to recreate them and end up copies that you can't get rid of), I'm hoping if they ever get around to overhauling the homebrew section that they'll make it a lot easier to make such changes, until then I'll just add a comment to each parent race.
*Update*: I've add the following in an errata comment for now, based upon your feedback (thanks again):
Large Weapons
Replace the second bullet point with the following:
You may wield one medium sized or smaller two-handed or versatile weapon in one of your hands with the same effectiveness as if you were wielding it in two.
Basically you can wield one medium sized versatile weapon two-handed just as you would one medium sized two-handed weapon.
Long Horns
Replace this section with the following:
Your horns are natural melee weapons which may be used when making an unarmed strike (headbutt) during your attack action, dealing piercing damage equal to 1d8 + your Strength modifier instead of the normal damage. You may attack with your horns only once per turn. At 8th level the damage increases to 2d8 + your Strength modifier, and at 16th level this increases again to 3d8 + your Strength modifier.
This should prevent the possibility of abusing the increased damage of a Horns strike in a bonus action (such as a Monk's bonus unarmed strike), as it must replace a "proper" attack (or be performed as part of a Goring Rush).
I've updated the Brute (Large) Minotaur with the following changes:
Long Horns: This feature has been removed due to various complexities with how it interacts with other attack actions. Instead it has been replaced with Brute Strength which gives you a Brute Strike unarmed bludgeoning attack with a d4 damage die. This allows you to still do decent damage if disarmed/brawling.
Goring Rush: This is now the only way to attack with your horns, as it means giving up all of your attacks to do-so (except in certain cases, e.g- Action Surge), and it does not benefit from a Monk's martial arts. This feels more balanced and a better fit overall for the large minotaur as using your horns at full effect up close would be difficult, and feels more like a proper charge.
Pummelling Horns: This has now been extended to any melee attacks (as it is with Ravnica Minotaurs), allowing you to use your reaction to try and push an enemy back. If used as part of a Goring Rush you can also knock them prone.
Large Weapons: Clarified this to include versatile when wielding one medium sized two-handed weapon in one hand.
These changes feel a little more natural, and remove an issue with the horns granting a big damage boost to multi-attack martial characters. The horns can still be a strong option for characters with a single attack, but since you also need to move and use your bonus action (and will probably want to use your reaction as well) it's not without a cost.
The Large Weapon clarification is the only one that's really needed for the Troll so far, and I'm reluctant to update that for a minor change, as my creations are already littered with sub-race copies I can't get rid of.
I've updated the Brute (Large) Minotaur with the following changes:
Long Horns: This feature has been removed due to various complexities with how it interacts with other attack actions. Instead it has been replaced with Brute Strength which gives you a Brute Strike unarmed bludgeoning attack with a d4 damage die. This allows you to still do decent damage if disarmed/brawling.
Goring Rush: This is now the only way to attack with your horns, as it means giving up all of your attacks to do-so (except in certain cases, e.g- Action Surge), and it does not benefit from a Monk's martial arts. This feels more balanced and a better fit overall for the large minotaur as using your horns at full effect up close would be difficult, and feels more like a proper charge.
Pummelling Horns: This has now been extended to any melee attacks (as it is with Ravnica Minotaurs), allowing you to use your reaction to try and push an enemy back. If used as part of a Goring Rush you can also knock them prone.
Large Weapons: Clarified this to include versatile when wielding one medium sized two-handed weapon in one hand.
These changes feel a little more natural, and remove an issue with the horns granting a big damage boost to multi-attack martial characters. The horns can still be a strong option for characters with a single attack, but since you also need to move and use your bonus action (and will probably want to use your reaction as well) it's not without a cost.
The Large Weapon clarification is the only one that's really needed for the Troll so far, and I'm reluctant to update that my creations are already littered with sub-race copies I can't get rid of.
with the change you made to goring rush, you probably ought to make it stack with the charger feat
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
with the change you made to goring rush, you probably ought to make it stack with the charger feat
I actually decided against this as you already deal extra damage (2d8 from level 8 and 3d8 from level 16), and can use Pummelling Horns when you do a Goring Rush for a chance to push and prone your target, so you don't really have a lot of reason to take the Charger feat to begin with.
You can however use Pummelling Horns with a Charger attack, you just don't gain the prone bonus as you're not using the horns to attack.
Some people may have seen my earlier thread about my proposed Large size Minotaur race, well I'm finished! I've also used the same basic framework to make a Large sized Troll race along similar lines, plus some support feats, and may make more in future, so I've decided to gather them together in a new thread rather than to try and re-edit the other one.
Common Traits
My Large sized races have several traits in common, these are the basics of how I've made something Large:
Races
Feats
I'd love some feedback on these; I've tried to keep them as straightforward as possible, and to keep the layouts as clean as I can despite the relatively high number of total traits a Large player will end up with, and the associated notes that go with them.
I've done some test sessions to see how they play and I think they're a blast, but not overpowered, though they do require a proactive DM who will push back against abuse (though this is true with any race). A DM should let a Large player feel powerful at times, but should also emphasise the disadvantages with hostile towns, confined spaces and other challenges to overcome that an all medium/small party wouldn't struggle with.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
how does such an race interact when weilding an medium versatile weapon in one hand? Also you should probably specify that the damage from the horns is limted to when you attack with them using the attack action on your turn, becuase RN an minotaur monk could dish out some silly amounts of damage with their horns since they can use an bonus action to make an unarmed strike after using the attack action to attack with an monk weapon, having to specify in the race description that the campaign needs to be sulpted in such a manner as to prevent abuse / to make shure their limitations even out seems a bit weird also
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I… forgot all about versatile while writing the Large Weapon rule! I mean really there's no reason for a Large creature to use one when they could just use a Two-handed weapon one-handed instead, but that doesn't mean they won't ever be in a situation where they need to (it's the only weapon available or the best they have proficiency in); I'd say you can use it two-handed in one hand in the same way. It's unfortunately a very tricky one to correct, I'll just have to add it as a comment for now, as updating homebrew parent races is annoying.
On Minotaur horns for a Monk, I'm not sure this is actually too unbalanced; a Ravnica Minotaur can use their horns on all unarmed strikes (not just one per turn), and the Large Minotaur's horns don't increase in damage until 8th and 16th levels which is when Monks start to plateau a bit in terms of damage anyway, and there's a lot of competition for a Monk's bonus action so I don't think it's too abusable. It might be more of a problem if a player takes a level in Monk just for the unarmed strike so they can use the horns instead; on that basis I'd like to implement your suggested change, but I'm going to have to hold off for the same reason as versatile.
As for DM pushback; the Large races are intentionally a bit stronger than regular sized races, and they definitely have potential to be abused, but heaping more direct penalties onto them just wasn't fun, as it either ended up making them weirdly bad at some aspects of combat, or extra hopeless outside of combat. For the Large Creature rule it's more about reminding a DM what the implications of having a Large player are, while for Feared Reputation these two races are both monstrous in nature (even if the player plays them as cuddly giants, NPCs might not see them that way), and if a player is going around overly abusing large creature bonuses (such as the horns) then it's the ideal time for the DM to turn around and say "the townsfolk call for the guard at the sight of a blood-soaked minotaur heading their way". This isn't necessarily unique to Large races as such, as DM's need to balance out their players anyway (give magic items to a weak player, reign in a well optimised one, make sure fights let everyone be a badass at least some of the time etc.), it's just intended as advice for where a DM might balance out an overall strong race while fitting the theme.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll keep the "once per Attack action" change and Versatile clarification in the back pocket for now, as updating parent races with sub-races on DDB is currently a nightmare (it doesn't copy or link the existing sub-races, meaning you have to recreate them and end up copies that you can't get rid of), I'm hoping if they ever get around to overhauling the homebrew section that they'll make it a lot easier to make such changes, until then I'll just add a comment to each parent race.
*Update*: I've add the following in an errata comment for now, based upon your feedback (thanks again):
Large Weapons
Replace the second bullet point with the following:
Basically you can wield one medium sized versatile weapon two-handed just as you would one medium sized two-handed weapon.
Long Horns
Replace this section with the following:
This should prevent the possibility of abusing the increased damage of a Horns strike in a bonus action (such as a Monk's bonus unarmed strike), as it must replace a "proper" attack (or be performed as part of a Goring Rush).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I've updated the Brute (Large) Minotaur with the following changes:
These changes feel a little more natural, and remove an issue with the horns granting a big damage boost to multi-attack martial characters. The horns can still be a strong option for characters with a single attack, but since you also need to move and use your bonus action (and will probably want to use your reaction as well) it's not without a cost.
The Large Weapon clarification is the only one that's really needed for the Troll so far, and I'm reluctant to update that for a minor change, as my creations are already littered with sub-race copies I can't get rid of.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
with the change you made to goring rush, you probably ought to make it stack with the charger feat
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I actually decided against this as you already deal extra damage (2d8 from level 8 and 3d8 from level 16), and can use Pummelling Horns when you do a Goring Rush for a chance to push and prone your target, so you don't really have a lot of reason to take the Charger feat to begin with.
You can however use Pummelling Horns with a Charger attack, you just don't gain the prone bonus as you're not using the horns to attack.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.