[[I'm afraid that's it for me tonight. I'm working tomorrow and need to sleep. Ciao.]]

[[ No worries, I appreciate the effort over the weekend. I'm much less stressed than I might have been. It was also fun! ]]

Stealth: 25

[[Edit: OMG. I won't complain about rolls for a while after tonight. Went through a bit of a drought before. ]]

Assuming he gets away long enough to go invisible next round, he will, swap Far Reaching for Uplifting, and  head back to the River and look for (a) where the guards are looking -- hoping one followed Rawl -- and (b) if Tinkerbell is anywhere in sight. He will move as rapidly as he can, starting downriver, and working back to the guards. How wide is the river?

[[ Re: Movement speed, I agree in principle...it should be slower, but then they'd probably create class attributes or feats like "Fast Sneaking" (they did in DDO), which creates a whold class of things that you "must have", thereby reducing build diversity. It's a complex business. It would probably be OK if Rogues got "Fast Sneaking" at level 3 or something. In any case, I'm happy with the status quo ;-) ]]

[[And at this point, we'll drop out of combat. I needed to find out what happened with ex-drunk, which you took care of.]]

Brand, invisible and moving quietly, heads as quickly as he can towards the guard who disarmed ex-drunk, who it seems is now following the escaped Rawl's progress downriver while moving along the edge of the river in the dark. When Brand gets close enough, he sees that Rawl is swimming slowly with the current, but away from the bank (he is now about 30' out from the bank), and that he will soon be lost in the darkness.

[[Brand cannot see Madame Damass's focus anywhere and the river at this point is wide, at least several hundred feet across.]]

[[ isnt dark vision 60'?

Three options occur to me. #2 is probably my preference.

1. The special power of the far reaching stone: swap, and use on Rawl....after getting away from the guard.

2. If I were willing to be visible, could I follow with levitate and mage hand to push me? Perhaps 40' ABOVE him.

3. Is there a bridge in the direction he is heading?

Edit: the thinking for #2 is: put invisibility and mage hand in pocket (or both in glove if possible); follow down bank until he is getting close to the limit of dark vision (45', say); then leap/levitate in his direction while invisible; this should result in being closer to him, and hopefully 30'+ from bank; when 30+ feet from bank, become visible, and start using far reaching to push me along.

Edit 2: If #2 is possible, the plan would be to wait until he is well away from the shore, harry him with VM, ideally until he is unconscious/dead. Then drop down, grab his body, levitate us both, kill him, if possible grab the dagger, and if there is a secluded bank nearby, take him there and search him, otherwise dump him back in the river.

Edit 3: 40' above seems excessive and would increase risk of being spotted from shore. Behind and above seems good, especially if he plans to use the VM to do damage. 30' max distance when attacking, so 15 seems prudent, but 40' or so at start

Edit 4: ok, it's a slow morning...thinking back, I'd there were secluded bank of river, taking him unconscious, tying him up, reviving him enough to survive...can he be knocked unconscious but not killed? The taking him back for Bacchi Cob would be a good option.

]]

[[Too busy to answer this now, so I'll do it when I get home. However, the ability that allows Brand to see the Madame Damass's focus is nothing to do with the Darkvision spell. It is a side effect of the Stone of Unseeing and only has a range of 30'.]]

[[Too busy to answer this now, so I'll do it when I get home. However, the ability that allows Brand to see the Madame Damass's focus is nothing to do with the Darkvision spell. It is a side effect of the Stone of Unseeing and only has a range of 30'.]]

[[ No problem; I was concerned because you said Rawl would soon be lost in the darkness, and he's about 30' away ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Too busy to answer this now, so I'll do it when I get home. However, the ability that allows Brand to see the Madame Damass's focus is nothing to do with the Darkvision spell. It is a side effect of the Stone of Unseeing and only has a range of 30'.]]

[[ No problem; I was concerned because you said Rawl would soon be lost in the darkness, and he's about 30' away ]]

[[He's 30' from the riverbank and swimming away from the bank, while at the same time being swept downriver. Chances are, he will be more than 60' away quite quickly.]]

[[I've been thinking about this situation during the day. Rawl in the water is effectively Prone, which would mean a ranged attack against them would be at Disadvantage. However, as the level of the road is about five feet above the level of the river, I will rule that shooting at the target isn't at Disadvantage, but I will give Rawl three-quarters cover (i.e., +5 to AC) because most of his body is underwater.]]

[[ That sounds good...do the guards have crossbows? Though the cover is like hiding behind a shrubbery. A crossbow bolt would probably be easy to target based on what you can see, but the water should provide some DR would say.

Minor point...for any reasonable chance to hit, +5 AC is MUCH nastier than disadvantage, statistically, iirc. But...is 20 always a hit?

 Brand wants to follow him, per option 2 above ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ That sounds good...do the guards have crossbows? Though the cover is like hiding behind a shrubbery. A crossbow bolt would probably be easy to target based on what you can see, but the water should provide some DR would say.

[[Brand doesn't remember seeing any crossbows on the guards or in the guard station, but then he wasn't particularly looking for them at the time. However, it is not uncommon for Constantine city guards to carry crossbows when warranted.]]

Minor point...for any reasonable chance to hit, +5 AC is MUCH nastier than disadvantage, statistically, iirc. But...is 20 always a hit?

[[Yes. You're right. I'll keep it at Disadvantage as three-quarters cover also gives +5 to saving throws, which I don't see as being relevant.]]

 Brand wants to follow him, per option 2 above ]]

[[Sorry, but Brand can't push or pull himself with the Stone of Far Reaching. There is no overlap in the basic powers of the stones (i.e., He cannot lift another person using the Stone of Uplifting, and he can't give himself the capability of flight using the Stone of Far Reaching). When Brand has been moving across the rooftops, he's been using the Stone of Uplifting to control his height vertically, but he has been having to push himself off roofs and walls to move horizontally—I have been imagining his movement as similar to parkour.]]

[[And finally, yes, there is a bridge downstream. It is the bridge that connects this piece of land to the island on which the king's palace sits. This bridge is several hundred yards downstream the other side of the Brand residence's jetty.]]

Leaving the guard behind, Brand continues to move along the bank of the river tracking Rawl's progress in the water. The man is not an elegant swimmer, but he is a fairly a strong one, despite his wounds. He is also moving away from the bank with every stroke (For the record, he's doing breaststroke).

[[ Brand can't push or pull himself with the Stone of Far Reaching ]]

This is something he used to do, and I think you previously agreed.

Quoting from you, earlier:

Brand can use the stone of far reaching and the stone of uplifting to move himself, horizontally, but not very fast. Note that the levitation stone only works on the holder of the stone. It was never intended to do otherwise and I have amended the description to specify this. I also seem to remember that Brand also built up speed running before taking to the air, so with this in mind he could start with a horizontal movement of 30'

[[ I get that it's slower and more unweildy than Fly, but it seems reasonable that he should be able to do so. ]]

[[ Also, just to make sure we are on the same page re levitation; I believe he can lift things, so long as he in in contact with them. The limitation on other things, mentioned above, was when I started wondering about lifting enemies out of cover...]]

[[ Edit: Also, I'd completely understand that to use the two stones in conjunction this way, he probably has to actually concentrate while adjusting trajectory, at least ;-) ]]

The bad new is, I have a rush job that I have to get done as soon as possible. This is going to slow me down for a while.

The good news is, I start some rec. leave from ASTA as of COB Wednesday, which means I should have more time then.

Will reply to last post later today.

[[ No pressure. I'm not under direct threat, so not anxious. Just need to float after Rawl is all ;-) ]]

[[Edit: if it helps at all, when discussed years ago, the stone provides thrust effectively. In this case, 10lb of thrust. Against air resistance, back of the envelope says max speed is about 50kph.

Note this is not a useful measure for speed, since mage hand is 30'/round which is 18kph.

What it does do, is help working out the effect of prevailing winds (with gales, he is not going anywhere into the wind). On the Beaufort scale, a 5-6 (Fresh Breeze, 31-39 kph; Strong Breeze 40-49kph) starts affecting his speed into the wind. Anything 7 or above (7 Moderate Gale, 52-54kph) means he cant move into the wind. It should also probably be noted that in winds above 50kph, if he is travelling AT the wind speed, the hand probably cant even keep up...though that is a little weird, but I'm thinking it works in its own fixed frame of reference, not mine.

This is quite distinct from the Fly spell which I assume operates in its own frame of reference as well, and completely ignores the wind, being magic and all. Air elementals FTW? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ No pressure. I'm not under direct threat, so not anxious. Just need to float after Rawl is all ;-) ]]

[[Edit: if it helps at all, when discussed years ago, the stone provides thrust effectively. In this case, 10lb of thrust. Against air resistance, back of the envelope says max speed is about 50kph.

Note this is not a useful measure for speed, since mage hand is 30'/round which is 18kph.

What it does do, is help working out the effect of prevailing winds (with gales, he is not going anywhere into the wind). On the Beaufort scale, a 5-6 (Fresh Breeze, 31-39 kph; Strong Breeze 40-49kph) starts affecting his speed into the wind. Anything 7 or above (7 Moderate Gale, 52-54kph) means he cant move into the wind. It should also probably be noted that in winds above 50kph, if he is travelling AT the wind speed, the hand probably cant even keep up...though that is a little weird, but I'm thinking it works in its own fixed frame of reference, not mine.

This is quite distinct from the Fly spell which I assume operates in its own frame of reference as well, and completely ignores the wind, being magic and all. Air elementals FTW? ]]

[[According to the definition of the spell, if the Mage Hand is ever more than 30' from the caster, it is automatically dispelled. This implies to me that the Mage Hand is not connected to the caster by any means that would 'pull' it along with the caster, and that the Mage Hand could be dispelled by moving its caster more than 30' away from it. Therefore, I see the maximum speed that a caster could achieve being pushed by the Mage Hand is 30' per round, if the caster could be move at all by the spell.

I did some calculations and the force required to support 10 lbs against gravity is great enough to move a 220 lb mass over 30' in a 6 second period in a frictionless environment, which leaves me with a quandary: allowing this in these circumstances is giving an at will cantrip an effect approaching the effect of a third level spell (i.e., Fly) for no cost.

Therefore, what I am going to rule is that the use of the Mage Hand feature of the Stone of Far Reaching to achieve horizontal movement while levitating is going to be constrained—sort of—by the rules of the Gust cantrip, so that horizontal movement using Mage Hand is limited to 10' per round, assuming that the caster is not resisting or being otherwise constrained and they are already in the air in a relatively friction free environment.]]

[[Addressing other issues:]]

[[ Also, just to make sure we are on the same page re levitation; I believe he can lift things, so long as he in in contact with them. The limitation on other things, mentioned above, was when I started wondering about lifting enemies out of cover...]]

[[Brand will have to be able to physically carry objects to be able to levitate them, not just touch them. It is him that is being levitated.]]

[[ Edit: Also, I'd completely understand that to use the two stones in conjunction this way, he probably has to actually concentrate while adjusting trajectory, at least ;-) ]]

[[He will certainly need to use his action to move in this fashion, as that is a limitation of the Mage Hand cantrip (i.e., this is not Movement). However, only the normal rules for Concentration need apply otherwise.]]

Therefore, I see the maximum speed that a caster could achieve being pushed by the Mage Hand is 30' per round, if the caster could be move at all by the spell.

Totally agree; 18kph is 30'/round. So no way he could move faster than that. It can only move 30'/round, so can not keep up with the caster even if summoned next to them.

allowing this in these circumstances is giving an at will cantrip an effect approaching the effect of a third level spell (i.e., Fly) for no cost.

I disagree with this; at the end of that round he will be travelling at 30' per round in a specific direction, and will have to spend most of another round stopping (or hit a wall, drop to the ground etc). He is also subject to winds etc, and the more he carries, the slower he accelerates. This is a very dodgy Fly spell at best.

Further, your calculation is (I think) based on the distance/acceleration equation. It does not take into account the mage hand speed limit, which is 5'/s; or 1.8 m/s. In the example given, he will achieve max speed in 3.6 seconds, then spend 2.4 seconds travelling at 1.8ms. Which means he (only?) travels 25' in the first round.

I do think this is a skill, however, that pushing yourself in the back to accelerate forwards, or pushing your shoulder to turn, and not spinning around etc would be an absolute nightmare.

Any chance we can make this speed limit a non-absolute, but merely a reflection of his current skill?

And where does this fit with Dash? Fly can be done 3 times effectively, can this? If not, it really doesn't need to be limited to 10', imo.

[[ Upon further reflection....if we went with your 10' model, at the end of round 1 I would be travelling 10'/round in a direction ... so what happens when I push harder?

How about a compromise that captures the inherent clunkiness: using mage hand add 10'/round vector in a given direction; three rounds in one direction results in 30' per round (max). Slowing to a stop will require another 3 rounds (or landing).

ISTM that this is so far from a Fly spell as to be incomparable; Fly can achieve 120/180 feet per round AND had no inertia.]]

[[ Re Levitate....why is it no just the levitate that it was? Stuff I am dolding, including up to one person of (some) weight can be levitated...this seems a much simpler approach

This was the original (revised) spec:

"When attuned and held in the hand, this magical stone allows its user to cast the Levitate spell on themselves at will. "

The levitate spell allows extra "stuff"]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ Upon further reflection....if we went with your 10' model, at the end of round 1 I would be travelling 10'/round in a direction ... so what happens when I push harder?

How about a compromise that captures the inherent clunkiness: using mage hand add 10'/round vector in a given direction; three rounds in one direction results in 30' per round (max). Slowing to a stop will require another 3 rounds (or landing).

[[I can live with the above, but such a technique couldn't be sped up by using other parts of your turn to do the pushing. The reason for this is that it is technically not movement, it is the result of doing something as your action, a thing that can't be done as a bonus action or as a movement.]]

ISTM that this is so far from a Fly spell as to be incomparable; Fly can achieve 120/180 feet per round AND had no inertia.]]

[[That's because Fly (a 3rd level spell) gives you flight as a form of movement for the duration of the spell, which allows the 120/180 move because you can sacrifice other parts of your turn to do movement. The Mage Hand cantrip effect of the stone doesn't allow this.]]

[[ Re Levitate....why is it no just the levitate that it was? Stuff I am dolding, including up to one person of (some) weight can be levitated...this seems a much simpler approach

[[I'm happy for Brand to pick someone up and levitate with them, the stone is capable of lifting 500 lbs, but it is Brand that is being lifted, so he would have to be able to carry that weight himself (or have it attached to him with the resultant strain) to be able to lift it; not just touch it.

The stones are supposed to each have their own domains of uses, and as I have hinted, these uses can be improved. Maybe in future Brand will be able to levitate someone at a distance using the Stone of Far Reaching, but he will never be able to levitate someone else at a distance with the Stone of Uplifting, as that is not the purpose it was made for. This is also the reason why I'm not enthused by the idea of using the Stone of Far Reaching for a flight substitute, but I'm going to allow its limited use as described above because it will only really work in concert with the Stone of Uplifting providing the necessary upward lift.]]

This was the original (revised) spec:

"When attuned and held in the hand, this magical stone allows its user to cast the Levitate spell on themselves at will. "

The levitate spell allows extra "stuff"]]

[[Gack! Look at the time. Night.]]

How about a compromise that captures the inherent clunkiness: using mage hand add 10'/round vector in a given direction; three rounds in one direction results in 30' per round (max). Slowing to a stop will require another 3 rounds (or landing).

[[I can live with the above, but such a technique couldn't be sped up by using other parts of your turn to do the pushing. The reason for this is that it is technically not movement, it is the result of doing something as your action, a thing that can't be done as a bonus action or as a movement.]]

That makes sense; if there's anything that allows two uses of a magic item (pretty sure there is something...), then he could only do i once in a turn.

ISTM that this is so far from a Fly spell as to be incomparable; Fly can achieve 120/180 feet per round AND had no inertia.]]

[[That's because Fly (a 3rd level spell) gives you flight as a form of movement for the duration of the spell, which allows the 120/180 move because you can sacrifice other parts of your turn to do movement. The Mage Hand cantrip effect of the stone doesn't allow this.]]

The reason  raised that is you commented that it was inappropriate for a cantrip to give a fly spell; the point was that this is so far from a Fly spell that you need not worry. Even if he could get to 30' per round in the first round, it would be miles from being anywhere near as useful as a Fly spell. I think the motivation to change it was flawed.

I would also note that it's not a cantrip giving fly, it's a level 2 spell plus a cantrip giving a very watered down fly; even as originally proposed.

I'm happy for Brand to pick someone up and levitate with them, the stone is capable of lifting 500 lbs, but it is Brand that is being lifted, so he would have to be able to carry that weight himself (or have it attached to him with the resultant strain) to be able to lift it; not just touch it.

My misunderstanding; I thought levitate was up to 500lb of whatever the target (Brand) was touching. I'm sure I read that somewhere, but can't find it. The spell seems to be non-specific on what a target is. So, fair enough.

[[ Back to Rawl: how fast is he swimming? Or perhaps more importantly, how fast is the river flowing? Can Brand keep up at 30' per round ? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

How about a compromise that captures the inherent clunkiness: using mage hand add 10'/round vector in a given direction; three rounds in one direction results in 30' per round (max). Slowing to a stop will require another 3 rounds (or landing).

[[I can live with the above, but such a technique couldn't be sped up by using other parts of your turn to do the pushing. The reason for this is that it is technically not movement, it is the result of doing something as your action, a thing that can't be done as a bonus action or as a movement.]]

That makes sense; if there's anything that allows two uses of a magic item (pretty sure there is something...), then he could only do i once in a turn.

[[It's actually defined by the number of actions a character can do in a turn (NB. Not attacks). Someone under the influence of a Haste spell gains an action and one of those can be the use an object action. I would allow this double use of the stone.]]

ISTM that this is so far from a Fly spell as to be incomparable; Fly can achieve 120/180 feet per round AND had no inertia.]]

[[That's because Fly (a 3rd level spell) gives you flight as a form of movement for the duration of the spell, which allows the 120/180 move because you can sacrifice other parts of your turn to do movement. The Mage Hand cantrip effect of the stone doesn't allow this.]]

The reason  raised that is you commented that it was inappropriate for a cantrip to give a fly spell; the point was that this is so far from a Fly spell that you need not worry. Even if he could get to 30' per round in the first round, it would be miles from being anywhere near as useful as a Fly spell. I think the motivation to change it was flawed.

I would also note that it's not a cantrip giving fly, it's a level 2 spell plus a cantrip giving a very watered down fly; even as originally proposed.

I'm happy for Brand to pick someone up and levitate with them, the stone is capable of lifting 500 lbs, but it is Brand that is being lifted, so he would have to be able to carry that weight himself (or have it attached to him with the resultant strain) to be able to lift it; not just touch it.

My misunderstanding; I thought levitate was up to 500lb of whatever the target (Brand) was touching. I'm sure I read that somewhere, but can't find it. The spell seems to be non-specific on what a target is. So, fair enough.

---

[[ Back to Rawl: how fast is he swimming? Or perhaps more importantly, how fast is the river flowing? Can Brand keep up at 30' per round ? ]]

[[Rawl is swimming away from the bank at 15' per round and is currently being swept down river at 20' per round. Trigonometry tells us that he is moving at 25' a round, so Brand should be able to catch up, and keep up, using his stones, but he will need to become visible to do this. He is currently also Stealthed, but there is a guard also following Rawl's progress but they are back aways because they can't see in the dark. Further back towards the guard post Brand can see the silhouette of someone carrying what looks like a crossbow in the light being given off by the streetlight.]]

[[ OK. Here's the broad plan:

Brand will run and leap off river bank (trying to match speed with Rawl, so maybe walk-and-leap, not sure), targeting a point ahead of Rawl initially. When he crosses the 60' line (ie. he can't see shore any more), swap stones, and try to match speed with Rawl, but remain behind him and upriver (not between him and the shore!).

IF the guard on the shore is far enough away, then Brand might consider just start with the stones swapped, and target a place a little nearer Rawl, so as to arrive behind him. But he doesn't want to be seen by Rawl, so this is unlikely to be a good plan.

In this setup, he will have the Uplifting stone in his left glove, and, if possible, the other two in his right glove (taking a round or two to swap, I assume). If he can't do that, he would take off his right glove, and put them both in his pocket, with his hand to enable swapping.

Does this sound like a plausible plan? ]]