"Potentially, though I was hoping for something with more broad coverage than just the Itich. ANd...would you have anything covering the arcane matters I mentioned?"

[[Do you get notifications when I post, or do you also suffer the 2+ hour delay?]]

[[Do you get notifications when I post, or do you also suffer the 2+ hour delay?]]

[[They only come up when I open a new window or refresh a page, the main delay is that I'm quite often doing other things. For example, since I've gotten home, I've been preparing for a client appointment I have tomorrow morning.]]

"Potentially, though I was hoping for something with more broad coverage than just the Itich. ANd...would you have anything covering the arcane matters I mentioned?"

"Broad coverage... I'm afraid not really. Of course, it doesn't help that Stemian has no written form..." He lapses into thought.

Then he snaps his fingers and says, "The reports of the first Sorendenese explorers to this region would be what you would be after, I suspect. But they are as rare as lion claws, and very expensive when they can be found."

Then he adds, "And I have some Gundian texts, which would tell you about the native inhabitants of that country: alfarens, durros, giants and the like. Do you speak the language like your mother does?"

[[And it's now after midnight, so that is it for me for the night, I'm afraid.]]

[[They only come up when I open a new window or refresh a page, the main delay is that I'm quite often doing other things. For example, since I've gotten home, I've been preparing for a client appointment I have tomorrow morning.]]

[[ Yeah, that's fine. Life gets in the way of the important things sometimes ;-). I just wanted to check if I was not alone in the slow email notifications. ]]

"The reports of the first Sorendenese explorers to this region would be what you would be after, I suspect. But they are as rare as lion claws, and very expensive when they can be found."

"That sounds potentially interesting, but what does 'very expensive' mean?"

[[Nod sagely when he gives some kind of price range, if any;

- if a price is given, he will say "That actually sounds promising; I might have to discuss this with my mother this evening; she may have some advice."

- if he asks more questions, then just answer "I see this is more complex than I imagined, I might have to give that some thought", then move on:]]

"Thinking about it though, I'm not sure we need to restrict ourselves to Engle. Is there no general survey of the races in the Sorendenese empire?"

[[ From the way he's been speaking, I assume that will result in some form of "no", so Brand would move on:]]

Then he adds, "And I have some Gundian texts, which would tell you about the native inhabitants of that country: alfarens, durros, giants and the like. Do you speak the language like your mother does?"

[[Guessing that's also a "no"? If he doesn't know it, Brand will shake his head regretfully, the move on...]]

"Perhaps it would be better to discuss whether you have anything covering the arcane matters mentioned earlier?"

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

"The reports of the first Sorendenese explorers to this region would be what you would be after, I suspect. But they are as rare as lion claws, and very expensive when they can be found."

"That sounds potentially interesting, but what does 'very expensive' mean?"

[[Nod sagely when he gives some kind of price range, if any;

- if a price is given, he will say "That actually sounds promising; I might have to discuss this with my mother this evening; she may have some advice."

- if he asks more questions, then just answer "I see this is more complex than I imagined, I might have to give that some thought", then move on:]]

[[He tells Brand that the price of such a book, if he could find it, would run into the tens of engles.]]

"Thinking about it though, I'm not sure we need to restrict ourselves to Engle. Is there no general survey of the races in the Sorendenese empire?"

[[Even more expensive and finding it would probably involve engaging agents in New Nineveh.]]

[[ From the way he's been speaking, I assume that will result in some form of "no", so Brand would move on:]]

[[This society is pre both printing press and library internet search capability, so availability is poor and knowledge of what is out there scarce.]]

Then he adds, "And I have some Gundian texts, which would tell you about the native inhabitants of that country: alfarens, durros, giants and the like. Do you speak the language like your mother does?"

[[Guessing that's also a "no"? If he doesn't know it, Brand will shake his head regretfully, the move on...]]

[[Brand gets one language from his race (i.e., Sorian) and one language from his background (i.e., Stemian), the last of which has no written form. So no.]]

"Perhaps it would be better to discuss whether you have anything covering the arcane matters mentioned earlier?"

He muses for a moment on the last question and says, "I have many books on the arcane... And I have something that deals with latent sorcerers, but that book itself is not for sale. I could have a copy of it made up for you, if you're interested?"

"Well! That all sounds very promising! I must admit the volume on the Itich you mentioned, the possibility of the collected reports of early explorers, and a copy of the work on latent sorcerers are all quite appealing. Would it be possible to examine the volumes in your possession, perhaps when I have had a chance to dry off? And if I wanted you to pursue the collected reports... How would we proceed?"

 [[Am I correct in assuming Brand is probably too wet to examine books? Or did his cloak do a good job?]]

 [[CAUOOC (Completely and utterly OOC): I just remembered a name from the original game: Sounds like "Ba-harl Nock-a-darn" ... I think he was Veade's weapon master. He may have been injured. Of course there's also The Raven  and Thorien, but both are dead, IIRC. Is it useful if a mention any other random recollections that may occur?]]

 [[ Interesting link on scribes: https://thalesandfriends.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/manuscript_production-ENG.pdf

And Khan Academt even: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/medieval-book/making-medieval-book/a/making-books-for-profit-in-medieval-times

Pretty amazing video: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/medieval-book/making-medieval-book/v/making-manuscripts

Though I imagine Prestidigitation may come close....]]

[[ Also an interesting quote, because of the variation:

"A single scribe, it is estimated, could write as two or three books a year.
As time went on, the scribes improved their processes, until by the end of the manuscript era in the 15th century, a book could be written and illuminated in as little as a few days. One of the fastest known writers in the 15th century boasted he could produce the old testament in three days."

from StackExchange

I still vote for Prestidigitation, and unlike Drizabone, the people who have the skills, also have the need for book duplication!]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

"Well! That all sounds very promising! I must admit the volume on the Itich you mentioned, the possibility of the collected reports of early explorers, and a copy of the work on latent sorcerers are all quite appealing. Would it be possible to examine the volumes in your possession, perhaps when I have had a chance to dry off? And if I wanted you to pursue the collected reports... How would we proceed?"

 [[Am I correct in assuming Brand is probably too wet to examine books? Or did his cloak do a good job?]]

[[Brand is fairly wet from the waist down, but above this not so much.]]

"If you will give me a moment, I will get the book on the itich; it is here in the shop," says the bookseller, hurrying away and leaving Brand to trade stares with Malfos for a while.

Then, with a cry of triumph, the bookseller appears out from behind a bookshelf with a small book raised high. "Here it is," he says, "'The Rise of the Itich' by Journeyman Abel Tamaz."

He brings the book to Brand and goes to pass it to him, but then stops. "I'm sorry, but do you mind taking off those gloves," the bookseller says. "They are both dirty and wet." [[Brand didn't get to change gloves earlier because he spotted the rat.]]

The bookseller then turns away and heads towards the back of the shop saying over his shoulder, "I will get you a towel."

He returns momentarily with the towel, saying, "The book on latent sorcerers is not here. It is in my private collection and I would only be interested in selling a copy of it. The copy, of course, would be freshly transcribed onto the finest paper and bound within the best covers."

"Anyway," he says proffering Brand the book. "Here's the treatise. I could let you have this for say... three engles?"

Brand smiles and dries his hands, then wipes any errant drops from his face and hair. "Today did not go as I planned, but it has been eventful."

He nods, and looks at the book the book seller is holding, "I'm sure that would be a fair price, but what I need to decide is if it's a price I'm willing to pay. I'm sure you understand. Perhaps I could peruse its pages for a few moments? In the mean time, if you could consider when I might be able to peruse the other book, how long a copy would take, and how much it might cost, that would be helpful?"

[[Brand examines the book, looking for things that interest him. My theory here is that Brand has learned that his formal teaching has unexpected prejudices (not the least of which is against women, given what he saw of Melitta). He has also learned (contrary, I assume, to some of his education) that Itich are much more than animals; they are capable militarily, highly dedicated (the dead at the tower attest to that), and clearly have capable sorcerors of their own. He is looking for:

- Shamanic practice. He wants the swors back!
- Cultural structures and belief: he wants to understand their behaviour and basis for thir actions
- Common ground with his own culture, if any
- Seats of past strength: they've been around for a long time, where are their places of power?
- Religious and spiritual beliefs
- Connections or intersections with Set worship or Mithran worship

He probably has a fairly black and white view of the likely outcomes of the conflict: these are peoples to be conquered or to be at peace with with, so in both cases, given the fall of Last Chance, he sees considerable value in understanding them. Especially if he continues to work with his father. The last thing he wants to do is underestimate them, again.

You (Phill) do not need to answer the above question, I just want some idea that the book might address this kind of stuff, rather than being a book on how they cook, build houses, or have sex...though maybe the latter could be useful at some point.

I wouldn't mind knowing, of course....but I suspect that's a whole other novel]]

[[If he finds enough interest, he will pay 3e: ]] "This is good! Just the sort of thing I was after."

[[If it's not of interest: ]] "I'm afraid this doesn't really contain the kinds of things that I was after; the writing is good, but farming practices and building methods are not really the sort of thing I want to understand. I want to know more about the people, their beliefs, and their culture. Perhaps I have too much of my mother in me!"

[[In both cases...]]

"Now about that other book..."

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Brand smiles and dries his hands, then wipes any errant drops from his face and hair. "Today did not go as I planned, but it has been eventful."

He nods, and looks at the book the book seller is holding, "I'm sure that would be a fair price, but what I need to decide is if it's a price I'm willing to pay. I'm sure you understand. Perhaps I could peruse its pages for a few moments? In the mean time, if you could consider when I might be able to peruse the other book, how long a copy would take, and how much it might cost, that would be helpful?"

[[Brand examines the book, looking for things that interest him. My theory here is that Brand has learned that his formal teaching has unexpected prejudices (not the least of which is against women, given what he saw of Melitta [[I wouldn't put too much weight on this as Melitta is a special case for a number of reasons I won't go into. Brand would know of many successful women in Sorendenese society and ever since the Empress Constantina (about a century ago) there have been laws implemented across the Empire against sexual discrimination.]]). He has also learned (contrary, I assume, to some of his education [[I suspect his education did not cover the itich at all, being most likely totally dominated by Sorendenese culture and traditions. However, his experience in Last Chance would have been very educational.]]) that Itich are much more than animals; they are capable militarily, highly dedicated (the dead at the tower attest to that), and clearly have capable sorcerors of their own [[They don't have sorcerers, they have shamans. Whether this is anything more than a semantic difference is something this book might answer, but Brand would not know at this point.]]. He is looking for:

- Shamanic practice. He wants the swors back!
- Cultural structures and belief: he wants to understand their behaviour and basis for thir actions
- Common ground with his own culture, if any
- Seats of past strength: they've been around for a long time, where are their places of power?
- Religious and spiritual beliefs
- Connections or intersections with Set worship or Mithran worship

[[Make an Investigation check.]]

He probably has a fairly black and white view of the likely outcomes of the conflict: these are peoples to be conquered or to be at peace with with, so in both cases, given the fall of Last Chance, he sees considerable value in understanding them. Especially if he continues to work with his father. The last thing he wants to do is underestimate them, again.

You (Phill) do not need to answer the above question [[What question?]], I just want some idea that the book might address this kind of stuff, rather than being a book on how they cook, build houses, or have sex...though maybe the latter could be useful at some point.

I wouldn't mind knowing, of course....but I suspect that's a whole other novel]]

[[The rest will need to wait until we get the result of the Investigation check. This will be an uncertain roll and I will give the result as an evaluation out of 10 as to how he perceives the book meets the above criteria in the short amount of time he has to flick through its pages.]]

[[If he finds enough interest, he will pay 3e: ]] "This is good! Just the sort of thing I was after."

[[If it's not of interest: ]] "I'm afraid this doesn't really contain the kinds of things that I was after; the writing is good, but farming practices and building methods are not really the sort of thing I want to understand. I want to know more about the people, their beliefs, and their culture. Perhaps I have too much of my mother in me!"

[[In both cases...]]

"Now about that other book..."

[[Make an Investigation check.]]

Investigation: 18

[[Not planning to edit this, but I worry about one roll that representation a summation over time. One roll is good for 'to-hit' (and for spotting Malfos).

The process here should be about checking here and there, looking at other sections and so on, until he forms a 'reasonable' view that he is comfortable with. This should represent a normal distribution in some way, like "Take 10', "Take 20" or "advantage" tries to emulate. No idea how it should be done, but this seems like it should be a summative assessment.

It's almost like he needs to roll repeatedly until he achieves a result reflecting high level of confidence. No idea how.]]

[[lol. glad I wrote all that crap before I rolled a 1.

I think, it also encourages me to be specific in future. eg. "What does the table of contents say? How many pages on the subject of X? If Y is something I know about, do I agree with the sentiment expressed bu the author?"

...which would be very slow]]

[[Thinking about this, I think the combat analogy is good. Brand lost to Vosel because, statistically, he almost always would. The sequence of rolls resulted in a common and likely outcome. Despite Vosel's fumble at the start, and two good rolls by Brand.

Assessing something over time should be a sequence of rolls, perhaps a combat between the authors quality/deceptiveness/hollowness/skill and Brand's ability to asses that. One roll doesn't seem right.

In this particular instance, I imagine if he says "It's all about farming, I don't really want it" then the owner will say "What about, the second half? It covers religion,. magic, and sacred sites!"

But in a more general sense, given time, I think a more statistically valid approach is needed. Just like combat.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Make an Investigation check.]]

Investigation: 6

[[Not planning to edit this, but I worry about one roll that representation a summation over time. One roll is good for 'to-hit' (and for spotting Malfos).

The process here should be about checking here and there, looking at other sections and so on, until he forms a 'reasonable' view that he is comfortable with. This should represent a normal distribution in some way, like "Take 10', "Take 20" or "advantage" tries to emulate. No idea how it should be done, but this seems like it should be a summative assessment.

It's almost like he needs to roll repeatedly until he achieves a result reflecting high level of confidence. No idea how.]]

[[He doesn't have the time to do any of the above in this situation. Based on a mechanism I decided on prior to asking you to roll, Brand currently thinks the book provides about 80% of what he wants. This might actually be the case, or he could be very wrong. You will need to role play his thinking the book is good. Brand will find out just how good or bad the book is through a closer investigation over a much longer period of time. At that time, I will get you to make another roll for experience.]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[lol. glad I wrote all that crap before I rolled a 1.

I think, it also encourages me to be specific in future. eg. "What does the table of contents say? How many pages on the subject of X? If Y is something I know about, do I agree with the sentiment expressed bu the author?"

...which would be very slow]]

[[There is no table of contents in this book and he doesn't have the luxury of time. Based on his flicking through the pages, it does seem to give him the sort of things he is interested in.]]

[[There is no table of contents in this book and he doesn't have the luxury of time.]]

[[Well, he kind of does. He's under no pressure to make a purchase now. He'll be back here tomorrow. He could easily say "not sure about this, I might come back when I have more time".

But, I'm happy to go with a fumble...if that is what it is.]]

"This is good! On [[a quick and completely inadequate]] inspection, it seems like it may be just the sort of thing I was after. Details on the other races in the empire like this might be very useful."

He rummages in his belt for his other purse, and hands over 3e. [[removed]]

""Now about that other book..."

[[ Can we discuss the way these assessments are made in the future: eg. what time does he require to make a good assessment, can we have a way of saying "he's not sure"? In the case of the next book, can you tell me what he finds by checking every few pages, and assessing what is being discussed and looking for bit he knows a little about to assess if he thinks they are facts? Bottom line: I need to know how to avoid a single roll (or just advantage) for a longer assessment in future.]]

[[ I think this leads to interesting , preferably drunken, conversations about the way knowledge is acquired...

It seems to me that one can recognize work that is inside or which intersects ones understanding.

It also seems that one can completely fail to comprehend work that is "outside" ones understanding; that incomprehension could take two forms: "this is gibberish written by an idiot" vs "this is gibberish to me, but written by a genius whom I can not comprehend". The choice is probably idiosyncratic and ego based.

It also seems that *most* work should be recognizable as "inside" or "intersecting" or "outside".

In the case of "inside": one can derive useful data from simple facts, but not gain much from the insights of the author.

In the case of "intersects": one can gain useful data from simple facts, AND may gain from the insights of the author.

In the case of "outside" one might say "maybe I'll look at this later".

In assessing a book (or someone's research), looking for points of shared knowledge, and branching from their seems the natural approach. Reading stuff completely outside ones area is a hard task.

I suspect this is what I was trying to get to in the assessment of the book.

In the game sense, I'm pretty sure I'd be happy if the book covered any one of the topic Brand is interested in!

]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[There is no table of contents in this book and he doesn't have the luxury of time.]]

[[Well, he kind of does. He's under no pressure to make a purchase now. He'll be back here tomorrow. He could easily say "not sure about this, I might come back when I have more time".

But, I'm happy to go with a fumble...if that is what it is.]]

"This is good! On [[a quick and completely inadequate]] inspection, it seems like it may be just the sort of thing I was after. Details on the other races in the empire like this might be very useful."

He rummages in his belt for his other purse, and hands over 3e. [[removed]]

""Now about that other book..."

[[ Can we discuss the way these assessments are made in the future: eg. what time does he require to make a good assessment, can we have a way of saying "he's not sure"? In the case of the next book, can you tell me what he finds by checking every few pages, and assessing what is being discussed and looking for bit he knows a little about to assess if he thinks they are facts? Bottom line: I need to know how to avoid a single roll (or just advantage) for a longer assessment in future.]]

[[It will depend on the circumstances. If you like, I can make the rolls in secret for you and tell you what Brand thinks. That is actually the better way to handle these sorts of situations, and I'm happy to do this in the future, if you want. The whole problem with this sort of situation is that the roll can tell the player information the character shouldn't have, and I only had you make the roll because there was a chance to gain some experience. In this case, Brand will only know that the book wasn't what he thought it was until after he actually reads it, and even then it might give him precisely the information he wants, just not in the way he thought (i.e., being uncertain about an investigation check doesn't mean the answer arrived at is wrong). Cutting to your last point, sometimes it must come down to a single roll made quickly because of the situation.]]

The bookseller takes the proffered coins and sticks them in a pocket of his waistcoat. 

"A pleasure doing business, Master Brand," he says with a smile. "Now about that other book. If you could come back tomorrow, I will bring the book in with me from home so you can peruse it to see if you would like me to make a copy of it for you. My normal copying charges are a 3 lions a page, and I must warn you that the process does takes time."

"That sounds most agreeable, and for the book in question, that would total...? In any case, I shall endeavour to return tomorrow, but events must play their course. Would you mind wrapping this one also?" he says, handing the book back to the man.

"Now, if I were interested in the reports of the first Sorendenese explorers...how would you wish to proceed? I would like to inspect such things if possible, but I appreciate that might be difficult?"

[[Re rolls: broadly, I think I would prefer GM rolls for things I should not know. [[Edit: and as I think I said before, I'm very happy for GM to make rolls for me (publically) that are purely mechanical: eg. to see a thing, if not seeing it means action continues, but seeing it means action pauses; like the rat...I'd be happy if you made the roll and told me afterwards when appropriate. Or just gave me XP.]]

BUT...I still remain concerned about a single roll for "is this the book for me". Based on this post I think I might be better off asking:

- Is this covering any subjects he has reasonable knowledge of, and if so what areas?
- What is his level of knowledge in these overlapping areas?
- Does he agree with the view expressed on stuff he knows well?

Then move on to:

- Does he find the stuff he disagrees with, or which he can at least follow, to be well argued?
- Has he found evidence of stuff he does not know in areas he is interested in?
- Does he find the writing style and assertions about things he knows a little about to be credible?

The first three are close to empirical fact, the last three are probably 'investigation'.

I'm also very happy if he remains uncertain after 15 minutes (or an hour). He can come back another day, perhaps after doing some research to verify stuff that makes him uncomfortable.

Does this sound reasonable? If so, I'd probably go with GM rolls for each; and a simple yes/not for the first three (they are a bit like "is it day time?"]]