Actually the wording of Magic Stone is of poor quality in some places, but the magic of the spell imbues anyone (or any living thing really) to be capable of making one attack with each of the stones once... if you have 2 or 3 and can make extra attacks or something I can see making the argument for getting to attack more than once with them in a single round (3d6+5 if the spellcasting ability is maxed out).
I think familiars... and even pet mice from the Urchin background can use these magic stones.
The magic of the spell imbues the pebbles with the properties of "can be used to make an attack by throwing or slinging and has X range and does X damage." The spell does not effect creatures in anyway, and a creature must be able to make attacks and throw the Pebble in order to "make an attack by throwing".
I would say familiars and pet mice can't use the magic stones because of that.
Yeah familiars generally can’t attack. I see the loophole here because they are not taking the attack action, but the spell’s wording covers it anyway.
Yeah familiars generally can’t attack. I see the loophole here because they are not taking the attack action, but the spell’s wording covers it anyway.
But it doesn't. The spell doesn't grant an action, and even if it did, familiars can't attack. Period. It isn't limited to the attack action, they can't throw acid (use an object) either.
“A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.”
Wait, are you saying this goes beyond “familiars can’t Attack”, and means they can never do anything that results in an attack roll? Even delivering touch attack spells?
If this is really a prohibition on attacking and not Attack, can familiars take the Attack action to do non-attack things, like grapple or shove?
Are you questioning whether “technically, you attack even though it isn’t an attack” is an attack? I think any reasonable person knows the answer to that.
Is a grapple attempt or a shove an attack? Neither involves an attack roll. Both can only be attempted using Attack.
Recall that the source material doesn’t actually have hyperlink green text. I’m just honestly asking what the intent of that sentence is, I’d always read it in my head as them not being able to take the Attack action or their special monster attack actions. I’d never considered that they also couldn’t use items to throw acid or deliver attack touch spells for you.
Bees is arguing (whether they realize it or not) that Familiars CAN take the Attack action, so long as they don’t attack with it and instead merely shove or grapple.
Never mind, grapples and shoves may not have attack rolls, but they’re still “special melee attacks.” Okay, that’s not as bad as I thought then... no attacks AND no Attack action, that’s tidy enough.
Yeah familiars generally can’t attack. I see the loophole here because they are not taking the attack action, but the spell’s wording covers it anyway.
But it doesn't. The spell doesn't grant an action, and even if it did, familiars can't attack. Period. It isn't limited to the attack action, they can't throw acid (use an object) either.
I am saying the spell’s wording prevents an attack whether by the attack action or otherwise.
Bees is arguing (whether they realize it or not) that Familiars CAN take the Attack action, so long as they don’t attack with it and instead merely shove or grapple.
Confusing.
No, I’m really not. And the fact that you misunderstood that is annoying. Grapple and shove, for example are in a section called “Melee Attacks,” both say that they are attack, and both require the attack action. They both, in fact use attack and attack in their wording. My point was that if they say they are an attack and/or an attack then they are an attack.
As I said, I’ve taken it literally. If the feature uses “attack” in the text, then it is some sort of attack whether you have spent an attack action on it or not.
I had forgotten shove and grapple were special attacks, despite having no attack rolls. They break the magic rule of “if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.” Which I acknowledged. Relax, you don’t always have to come out swinging for me.
Well, to explain a little more, I would say that any thing that requires an attack (again, green text or no) is not allowed for a familiar with a single exception: If the familiar is not actually attacking but instead delivering a touch spell with an attack roll for the familiar's caster. This is because delivering spells is specifically called out at the end of the relevant rule text and the familiar isn't making the attack; it is just delivering the spell.
Under Acid in the equipment section of the PHB. it starts off by saying you can use an action to splash or throw and later says make a ranged attack roll but this can also be argued that since it doesn't say attack action your familiar can do this using the Use an Object action.
Grapple and Shove are listed as taking the attack action to do them. Familiars cannot take the attack action.
Familiars can make attack rolls and deal damage through other means without taking the attack action.
There are not 2 types of attack action, one with green text and one without, there is just one type of attack action that covers every kind of attack made with it (melee, ranged, spell melee, spell ranged etc.) The green text just helps people look up the attack action right there in the post without having to search through rule books.
The relevant text for familiars makes no mention of "attack action," only "attack." The text says the familiar cannot attack. That means what it says; if you are making attack rolls, that is as its nature part of some attack. That is not allowed for familiars by the text of the spell. It is in fact incorrect to state that a familiar can make attack rolls other than the single exemption made in the spell.
There are not 2 types of attack action, one with green text and one without, there is just one type of attack action that covers every kind of attack made with it (melee, ranged, spell melee, spell ranged etc.) The green text just helps people look up the attack action right there in the post without having to search through rule books.
Sorry but this simply isn't true. The Attack action is a specific action that allows you to make some sorts of attacks. But you do not attack with your spells through taking the Attack action, that is done via the [Tooltip Not Found] action. The rules clearly allow for an attack to be made through the use of several different actions, bonus actions or reactions.
Familiars can make attack rolls and deal damage through other means without taking the attack action.
This is just not the case, as has been emphasized a number of times. A familiar cannot attack, period. It has absolutely nothingto do with the Attack action.
Familiars cannot throw acid as it involves making an attack.
Familiars cannot make opportunity attacks with their reaction, as it involves making an attack.
If you somehow grant the familiar access to spellcasting, it cannot use the "cast a spell" action to cast firebolt, as that involves making an attack. Nor could it use a Flame Blade or Spiritual weapon to make attacks.
The only exceptions to the rule are explicitly spelled out, like Pact of the Chain.
Familiars can make attack rolls and deal damage through other means without taking the attack action.
This is just not the case, as has been emphasized a number of times. A familiar cannot attack, period. It has absolutely nothingto do with the Attack action.
Familiars cannot throw acid as it involves making an attack.
Familiars cannot make opportunity attacks with their reaction, as it involves making an attack.
If you somehow grant the familiar access to spellcasting, it cannot use the "cast a spell" action to cast firebolt, as that involves making an attack. Nor could it use a Flame Blade or Spiritual weapon to make attacks.
The only exceptions to the rule are explicitly spelled out, like Pact of the Chain.
The main exception is that they can deliver touch spells even if they require attack rolls.
But pact of the chain and some of its invocations does have a few more.
Okay, so, interactions with familiars aside... the consensus was mostly that Magic Stone (both with or without sling, yourself or a third party), is used with Attack or other actions/bonus actions/reactions that use weapons, not with [Tooltip Not Found]. Plenty of stuff still to hash out about range, whether it’s a spell attack made with a ranged weapon, etc... but at the most basic level, use it like a weapon, not like an acid flask.
Okay, so, interactions with familiars aside... the consensus was mostly that Magic Stone (both with or without sling, yourself or a third party), is used with Attack or other actions/bonus actions/reactions that use weapons, not with Use an Object. Plenty of stuff still to hash out about range, whether it’s a spell attack made with a ranged weapon, etc... but at the most basic level, use it like a weapon, not like an acid flask.
Yup, that is correct. You are not granted a special action of any sort. The Attack action is going to be the most common way for you to use it.
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The magic of the spell imbues the pebbles with the properties of "can be used to make an attack by throwing or slinging and has X range and does X damage." The spell does not effect creatures in anyway, and a creature must be able to make attacks and throw the Pebble in order to "make an attack by throwing".
I would say familiars and pet mice can't use the magic stones because of that.
I also assume you for the 1 in 3d6+15.
Yeah familiars generally can’t attack. I see the loophole here because they are not taking the attack action, but the spell’s wording covers it anyway.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
But it doesn't. The spell doesn't grant an action, and even if it did, familiars can't attack. Period. It isn't limited to the attack action, they can't throw acid (use an object) either.
“A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.”
Wait, are you saying this goes beyond “familiars can’t Attack”, and means they can never do anything that results in an attack roll? Even delivering touch attack spells?
If this is really a prohibition on attacking and not Attack, can familiars take the Attack action to do non-attack things, like grapple or shove?
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Are you questioning whether “technically, you attack even though it isn’t an attack” is an attack? I think any reasonable person knows the answer to that.
Is a grapple attempt or a shove an attack? Neither involves an attack roll. Both can only be attempted using Attack.
Recall that the source material doesn’t actually have hyperlink green text. I’m just honestly asking what the intent of that sentence is, I’d always read it in my head as them not being able to take the Attack action or their special monster attack actions. I’d never considered that they also couldn’t use items to throw acid or deliver attack touch spells for you.
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Are you confused if an attack is an attack still?
I’ve always taken it literally. No attacks. Green text link or no.
Brian, that’s how I used to read it.
Bees is arguing (whether they realize it or not) that Familiars CAN take the Attack action, so long as they don’t attack with it and instead merely shove or grapple.
Confusing.
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Never mind, grapples and shoves may not have attack rolls, but they’re still “special melee attacks.” Okay, that’s not as bad as I thought then... no attacks AND no Attack action, that’s tidy enough.
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I am saying the spell’s wording prevents an attack whether by the attack action or otherwise.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, I’m really not. And the fact that you misunderstood that is annoying. Grapple and shove, for example are in a section called “Melee Attacks,” both say that they are attack, and both require the attack action. They both, in fact use attack and attack in their wording. My point was that if they say they are an attack and/or an attack then they are an attack.
As I said, I’ve taken it literally. If the feature uses “attack” in the text, then it is some sort of attack whether you have spent an attack action on it or not.
I had forgotten shove and grapple were special attacks, despite having no attack rolls. They break the magic rule of “if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.” Which I acknowledged. Relax, you don’t always have to come out swinging for me.
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Well, to explain a little more, I would say that any thing that requires an attack (again, green text or no) is not allowed for a familiar with a single exception: If the familiar is not actually attacking but instead delivering a touch spell with an attack roll for the familiar's caster. This is because delivering spells is specifically called out at the end of the relevant rule text and the familiar isn't making the attack; it is just delivering the spell.
The relevant text for familiars makes no mention of "attack action," only "attack." The text says the familiar cannot attack. That means what it says; if you are making attack rolls, that is as its nature part of some attack. That is not allowed for familiars by the text of the spell. It is in fact incorrect to state that a familiar can make attack rolls other than the single exemption made in the spell.
Sorry but this simply isn't true. The Attack action is a specific action that allows you to make some sorts of attacks. But you do not attack with your spells through taking the Attack action, that is done via the [Tooltip Not Found] action. The rules clearly allow for an attack to be made through the use of several different actions, bonus actions or reactions.
This is just not the case, as has been emphasized a number of times. A familiar cannot attack, period. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Attack action.
Familiars cannot throw acid as it involves making an attack.
Familiars cannot make opportunity attacks with their reaction, as it involves making an attack.
If you somehow grant the familiar access to spellcasting, it cannot use the "cast a spell" action to cast firebolt, as that involves making an attack. Nor could it use a Flame Blade or Spiritual weapon to make attacks.
The only exceptions to the rule are explicitly spelled out, like Pact of the Chain.
The main exception is that they can deliver touch spells even if they require attack rolls.
But pact of the chain and some of its invocations does have a few more.
Yep you're right, I consider that part of 'explicitly spelled out'.
Okay, so, interactions with familiars aside... the consensus was mostly that Magic Stone (both with or without sling, yourself or a third party), is used with Attack or other actions/bonus actions/reactions that use weapons, not with [Tooltip Not Found]. Plenty of stuff still to hash out about range, whether it’s a spell attack made with a ranged weapon, etc... but at the most basic level, use it like a weapon, not like an acid flask.
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Yup, that is correct. You are not granted a special action of any sort. The Attack action is going to be the most common way for you to use it.