One of my players is playing a half-orc with a goblin sidekick. They had an idea recently that I want to run by you: Could the goblin ride the half-orc’s shoulders?
Personally, I want to allow it. My current thinking is to have the goblin hold on with one hand, but also be able to purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands.
What do you think? How would you handle this concept?
One of my players is playing a half-orc with a goblin sidekick. They had an idea recently that I want to run by you: Could the goblin ride the half-orc’s shoulders?
Personally, I want to allow it. My current thinking is to have the goblin hold on with one hand, but also be able to purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands.
What do you think? How would you handle this concept?
Nope. PC's (or NPC's) cannot end their turn sharing the same space as another player, under all "normal" conditions. You want to trash that rule, then you are entering into a world of hurt as who knows what other mechanics are changed. (Grappling comes to mind).
One of my players is playing a half-orc with a goblin sidekick. They had an idea recently that I want to run by you: Could the goblin ride the half-orc’s shoulders?
Personally, I want to allow it. My current thinking is to have the goblin hold on with one hand, but also be able to purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands.
What do you think? How would you handle this concept?
Nope. PC's (or NPC's) cannot end their turn sharing the same space as another player, under all "normal" conditions. You want to trash that rule, then you are entering into a world of hurt as who knows what other mechanics are changed. (Grappling comes to mind).
But now you’ve brought up an entirely different question: does a mount occupy the same space as the rider? The rules say that no creature can end its turn in another creature’s space, yet mount rules say that a mount and rider can occupy the same space.
In a way, the half-orc becomes an independent mount while the goblin is a rider. No rules violated.
Mount rules specifically override general “can’t end in same space” rules when there’s mounting going on. OP’s idea is a bit silly, but it doesn’t break anything so if the players wanted to do it, I don’t think I’d have any issue with it?
The rules of mounted combat don't prohibit riding other characters, but put it in the DM's domain to decide if mount/rider have the appropriate anatomy to serve in that capacity.
If you are the DM and want to allow it, go right ahead and have fun.
For the finer points of the mechanics, Treantmonk has a video out that I found illuminating.
Mount rules specifically override general “can’t end in same space” rules when there’s mounting going on. OP’s idea is a bit silly, but it doesn’t break anything so if the players wanted to do it, I don’t think I’d have any issue with it?
You see where this leads. Half Orc moves and Grapples a target, and then Goblin sits pretty and wails on the target. Or Goblin dismounts at end Orc's movement, and then does his own movement. Yes, Mounted rules already cover this, but to have an NPC / PC do this just seems very very wrong. How do opportunity attacks work? Does the Goblin now get to Jump from the Orc's shoulders, and we assume the Goblin is already 5 feet in the air, and that gets added to max High Jump?
Further, as soon as the player says "purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands", the flood gates are opened, as the archer in the group "purchases a custom shield that allows the archer to use a bow while said shield provides a +1 to AC". And yeah, I was in a campaign where the player asked for, and received, such a buckler. Every player wants a "custom object" to circumvent a rule.
I think I'd allow the goblin to sit on the half-orc's shoulders, but I would probably limit some things. It sounds like a fun thing to do, but I feel it should have some reasonable downsides too, given it would make the half-orc less manoeuvrable and the goblin will not be totally stable. I think requiring them to use one hand to hold on is a good idea (or just generally disallow use of a shield, heavy/two-handed weapons, dual-wielding etc). I wouldn't allow them to get a saddle. Maybe a papoose, but I'd make that severely limit the actions the goblin could take. I'd consider giving them disadvantage on Dex saves, and there would be a chance that the goblin could be knocked off in some circumstances.
As a DM i'd rule that a humanoid creature doesn't have the appropriate anatomy to serve as a mount. While IRL creature of the same size of less can climb on each other's shoulder, IMO bipedal creatures don't have the balance and stability of a mount to move around with a large weight on their shoulder, especially in combat. Exception could be if they drop prone and go on all four but it'd be clumsy (crawl) and painful on the knees over time for sure.
Mounted Combat: A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount
Mount rules specifically override general “can’t end in same space” rules when there’s mounting going on. OP’s idea is a bit silly, but it doesn’t break anything so if the players wanted to do it, I don’t think I’d have any issue with it?
You see where this leads. Half Orc moves and Grapples a target, and then Goblin sits pretty and wails on the target. Or Goblin dismounts at end Orc's movement, and then does his own movement. Yes, Mounted rules already cover this, but to have an NPC / PC do this just seems very very wrong. How do opportunity attacks work? Does the Goblin now get to Jump from the Orc's shoulders, and we assume the Goblin is already 5 feet in the air, and that gets added to max High Jump?
Further, as soon as the player says "purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands", the flood gates are opened, as the archer in the group "purchases a custom shield that allows the archer to use a bow while said shield provides a +1 to AC". And yeah, I was in a campaign where the player asked for, and received, such a buckler. Every player wants a "custom object" to circumvent a rule.
Of course players are going to ask to be able to do cool stuff, or for cool items which help them do cool stuff. It's important that the DM knows when to say no, but it's also important that a DM knows when to say yes, when the action or item will enhance the game. Answering "No" every single time is the easiest way to deal with it, but it is also the least fun and, IMHO, the way which follows the spirit of D&D the least. To my mind, a good DM will find a balance between what they allow and what they won't.
Well, the mount rules say "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount," so by RAW that comes down to GM judgement about "appropriate anatomy." Most parents (not to mention many other people) have some experience carrying a smaller person on their shoulders, so...
Without any special equipment I'd treat it like grappling with minor adjustments. So either the orc or goblin must treat one arm as occupied, orc can move at 1/2 speed. Goblin speed set to 0 until top of initiative after dismount(can dismount to any square adjacent to the orc.
Edit: Harness removes the 1 occupied hand penalty, if nothing goes wonkey you can offer a magical version of the harness removing speed penalty for carrying a willing creature
You all bring up very good points. It is worth mentioning that the “custom” saddle I would likely give to the players would be considered an exotic saddle. That would mean it would take 60gp and 12 workdays to craft, as well as render the armor that the saddle is being grafted into useless until the craft is done. That may not seem like much, but the player is only at level 3.
Plus, the saddle could work a little differently than a normal saddle. To keep the goblin from falling off, there would be leg straps on the armor shoulders. Those would take an action to fasten/unfasten, and half your speed to mount/dismount. While strapped in, the goblin wouldn’t fall off and could use both hands (No two-handed or heavy weapons). However, the half-orc might have to make strength saves whenever the goblin experiences force that would normally knock it off.
In a homebrew game I played in once, this issue came up, since I was playing a gnome who was consistently being left in the dust by her larger, faster party members. One of the other PCs had proficiency with leatherworker’s tools, so he made a backpack-style harness that he could wear, for me to ride around in.
The DM allowed it, with two caveats: I was always facing backwards, and I couldn’t get in and out by myself. It actually introduced some really fun mechanics into the game. In combat, for example, my “mount” would cast his spells, and then turn in place, on his turn, and on mine, I would cast my spells. It made things complicated, requiring more strategy, but it was a ton of fun! The comedy and RP value far outweighed the inconvenience.
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The "appropriate anatomy" portion of the rule is explicitly in place to avoid PCs mounting other PCs, while at the same time leaving just enough wiggle room for the DM to rule otherwise if they desire. In practice, its not a feasible scenario, at least if you want both combatants at peak performance. Humanoids just don't have good anatomy for acting as a mount.
But some games like to be wacky and handwave this sort of thing. Really depends on your group.
Is it impractical and silly? Yes. And that’s why I love it. But for real, the Half-Orc basically adopted this Goblin in the first session (Their names are Gorg and Mink (Bonus points if you get the reference (which was accidental XD))) so this could be a cool role playing tool.
Mount rules specifically override general “can’t end in same space” rules when there’s mounting going on. OP’s idea is a bit silly, but it doesn’t break anything so if the players wanted to do it, I don’t think I’d have any issue with it?
You see where this leads. Half Orc moves and Grapples a target, and then Goblin sits pretty and wails on the target. Or Goblin dismounts at end Orc's movement, and then does his own movement. Yes, Mounted rules already cover this, but to have an NPC / PC do this just seems very very wrong. How do opportunity attacks work? Does the Goblin now get to Jump from the Orc's shoulders, and we assume the Goblin is already 5 feet in the air, and that gets added to max High Jump?
Further, as soon as the player says "purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands", the flood gates are opened, as the archer in the group "purchases a custom shield that allows the archer to use a bow while said shield provides a +1 to AC". And yeah, I was in a campaign where the player asked for, and received, such a buckler. Every player wants a "custom object" to circumvent a rule.
Except, of course, that custom shields have nothing to do with people riding on each other's shoulders so it's a non sequitur.
54MU31, if you think that it's a fun idea and you want to allow your players to do it, I see no reason why they couldn't. Just make sure that you work out how it's going work so that there are no surprises because it will require some houserules. For example, I'd say that the goblin could never move more than half it's movement in the same turn as it is being carried/piggy back rides. It would probably also have disadvantage on Dex saves and melee attacks simply because they're busy holding on. On the other hand, I'd probably allow half cover for the goblin when calculating AC if the attacks come from the "right" direction.
I'd also let the player know in advance that if this leads to too much shennanigans, they will have to stop doing it. If they can't accept that, they can't do it at all.
One player running two different characters is rarely a good idea.
In this case the potential for rules abuse is immense. Imagine if you will, both the Half-Orc and the Goblin using Lances. 15 feet long pointy sticks. What happens when they charge? Can they both use their lances in one hand? This is a D12 weapon. I suppose they could even *throw* the goofy things if it suits them, although a 6 pound weapon might not travel that far. Just how many of them can they carry? Can they each have one in each hand? Four lances, all at the same target. Just for fun let's make them both Fighters so they can get two attacks on the Attack Action. How many total times can they poke the same target if they both burn an Action Surge? Throw in some Feats and Fighting Styles for good measure. When it comes down to Bonus Actions and Attacks of Opportunity all hell is going to break loose.
I get a headache just thinking about all the ways a Half-Orc with a Goblin riding on them could end up causing rules arguments 4D12 damage, strength mods, or maybe go with some nice dex builds. Half-Orc Barbarian running along (with higher base speed) swinging a pair of lances while raging with a berserk Goblin on their back. Can we switch all mention of Strength over to Dexterity, and use Finesse while in a Cold Rage? (Yes, there was a thread once where someone asked to do just that. Lances and mounted combat were not mentioned.)
Raw: Yes PCs can ride PCs. As long as the DM allows it basically. And RAW it doesn't occupy a hand or reduce movement (as long as the mounted PC is not over encumbered).
You see where this leads. Half Orc moves and Grapples a target, and then Goblin sits pretty and wails on the target. Or Goblin dismounts at end Orc's movement, and then does his own movement. Yes, Mounted rules already cover this, but to have an NPC / PC do this just seems very very wrong. How do opportunity attacks work? Does the Goblin now get to Jump from the Orc's shoulders, and we assume the Goblin is already 5 feet in the air, and that gets added to max High Jump?
Further, as soon as the player says "purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands", the flood gates are opened, as the archer in the group "purchases a custom shield that allows the archer to use a bow while said shield provides a +1 to AC". And yeah, I was in a campaign where the player asked for, and received, such a buckler. Every player wants a "custom object" to circumvent a rule.
Your problem with mounting a PC seems to only be the mounted rules themselves and nothing to do with it involving 2 Pcs.
Also, is needing a homebrew item to remove a homebrew penalty really a slippery slope into making a homebrew item to circumvent RAW penalties? Because it seems like the opposite since the DM is specifically making things harder than RAW.
One player running two different characters is rarely a good idea.
In this case the potential for rules abuse is immense. Imagine if you will, both the Half-Orc and the Goblin using Lances. 15 feet long pointy sticks. What happens when they charge? Can they both use their lances in one hand? This is a D12 weapon. I suppose they could even *throw* the goofy things if it suits them, although a 6 pound weapon might not travel that far. Just how many of them can they carry? Can they each have one in each hand? Four lances, all at the same target. Just for fun let's make them both Fighters so they can get two attacks on the Attack Action. How many total times can they poke the same target if they both burn an Action Surge? Throw in some Feats and Fighting Styles for good measure. When it comes down to Bonus Actions and Attacks of Opportunity all hell is going to break loose.
I get a headache just thinking about all the ways a Half-Orc with a Goblin riding on them could end up causing rules arguments 4D12 damage, strength mods, or maybe go with some nice dex builds. Half-Orc Barbarian running along (with higher base speed) swinging a pair of lances while raging with a berserk Goblin on their back. Can we switch all mention of Strength over to Dexterity, and use Finesse while in a Cold Rage? (Yes, there was a thread once where someone asked to do just that. Lances and mounted combat were not mentioned.)
You can't throw lances and the things you mention about fighters and action surge has nothing to do with being mounted at all, really.
You can't throw lances and the things you mention about fighters and action surge has nothing to do with being mounted at all, really.
I am aware that Lances cannot traditionally be thrown weapons. There is no specific rule which prevents this.
As for Fighters and Action Surge, class and level is not mentioned in the Original Post. Both the Half-Orc and the Goblin could be Fighters of high enough level to use Action Surge and it seems relevant to mounted combat to me at least.
You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Not one. I never asked if Lances could be thrown.
I simply tried to point out that once you leave the rules behind things become complicated very quickly. This is the Rules And Game Mechanics forum.
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One of my players is playing a half-orc with a goblin sidekick. They had an idea recently that I want to run by you: Could the goblin ride the half-orc’s shoulders?
Personally, I want to allow it. My current thinking is to have the goblin hold on with one hand, but also be able to purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands.
What do you think? How would you handle this concept?
Nope. PC's (or NPC's) cannot end their turn sharing the same space as another player, under all "normal" conditions. You want to trash that rule, then you are entering into a world of hurt as who knows what other mechanics are changed. (Grappling comes to mind).
But now you’ve brought up an entirely different question: does a mount occupy the same space as the rider? The rules say that no creature can end its turn in another creature’s space, yet mount rules say that a mount and rider can occupy the same space.
In a way, the half-orc becomes an independent mount while the goblin is a rider. No rules violated.
Mount rules specifically override general “can’t end in same space” rules when there’s mounting going on. OP’s idea is a bit silly, but it doesn’t break anything so if the players wanted to do it, I don’t think I’d have any issue with it?
The rules of mounted combat don't prohibit riding other characters, but put it in the DM's domain to decide if mount/rider have the appropriate anatomy to serve in that capacity.
If you are the DM and want to allow it, go right ahead and have fun.
For the finer points of the mechanics, Treantmonk has a video out that I found illuminating.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
You see where this leads. Half Orc moves and Grapples a target, and then Goblin sits pretty and wails on the target. Or Goblin dismounts at end Orc's movement, and then does his own movement. Yes, Mounted rules already cover this, but to have an NPC / PC do this just seems very very wrong. How do opportunity attacks work? Does the Goblin now get to Jump from the Orc's shoulders, and we assume the Goblin is already 5 feet in the air, and that gets added to max High Jump?
Further, as soon as the player says "purchase a custom-saddle/harness to allow for the use of both hands", the flood gates are opened, as the archer in the group "purchases a custom shield that allows the archer to use a bow while said shield provides a +1 to AC". And yeah, I was in a campaign where the player asked for, and received, such a buckler. Every player wants a "custom object" to circumvent a rule.
I think I'd allow the goblin to sit on the half-orc's shoulders, but I would probably limit some things. It sounds like a fun thing to do, but I feel it should have some reasonable downsides too, given it would make the half-orc less manoeuvrable and the goblin will not be totally stable. I think requiring them to use one hand to hold on is a good idea (or just generally disallow use of a shield, heavy/two-handed weapons, dual-wielding etc). I wouldn't allow them to get a saddle. Maybe a papoose, but I'd make that severely limit the actions the goblin could take. I'd consider giving them disadvantage on Dex saves, and there would be a chance that the goblin could be knocked off in some circumstances.
As a DM i'd rule that a humanoid creature doesn't have the appropriate anatomy to serve as a mount. While IRL creature of the same size of less can climb on each other's shoulder, IMO bipedal creatures don't have the balance and stability of a mount to move around with a large weight on their shoulder, especially in combat. Exception could be if they drop prone and go on all four but it'd be clumsy (crawl) and painful on the knees over time for sure.
Mounted Combat: A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount
Of course players are going to ask to be able to do cool stuff, or for cool items which help them do cool stuff. It's important that the DM knows when to say no, but it's also important that a DM knows when to say yes, when the action or item will enhance the game. Answering "No" every single time is the easiest way to deal with it, but it is also the least fun and, IMHO, the way which follows the spirit of D&D the least. To my mind, a good DM will find a balance between what they allow and what they won't.
Well, the mount rules say "A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount," so by RAW that comes down to GM judgement about "appropriate anatomy." Most parents (not to mention many other people) have some experience carrying a smaller person on their shoulders, so...
The DMG has a different option (usually for unwilling mounts, essentially) for climbing on to bigger creatures and hanging on. See https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/dungeon-masters-workshop#ActionOptions. That appears to be mostly for greater-than-1-step size disparity, though.
Without any special equipment I'd treat it like grappling with minor adjustments. So either the orc or goblin must treat one arm as occupied, orc can move at 1/2 speed. Goblin speed set to 0 until top of initiative after dismount(can dismount to any square adjacent to the orc.
Edit: Harness removes the 1 occupied hand penalty, if nothing goes wonkey you can offer a magical version of the harness removing speed penalty for carrying a willing creature
You all bring up very good points. It is worth mentioning that the “custom” saddle I would likely give to the players would be considered an exotic saddle. That would mean it would take 60gp and 12 workdays to craft, as well as render the armor that the saddle is being grafted into useless until the craft is done. That may not seem like much, but the player is only at level 3.
Plus, the saddle could work a little differently than a normal saddle. To keep the goblin from falling off, there would be leg straps on the armor shoulders. Those would take an action to fasten/unfasten, and half your speed to mount/dismount. While strapped in, the goblin wouldn’t fall off and could use both hands (No two-handed or heavy weapons). However, the half-orc might have to make strength saves whenever the goblin experiences force that would normally knock it off.
In a homebrew game I played in once, this issue came up, since I was playing a gnome who was consistently being left in the dust by her larger, faster party members. One of the other PCs had proficiency with leatherworker’s tools, so he made a backpack-style harness that he could wear, for me to ride around in.
The DM allowed it, with two caveats: I was always facing backwards, and I couldn’t get in and out by myself. It actually introduced some really fun mechanics into the game. In combat, for example, my “mount” would cast his spells, and then turn in place, on his turn, and on mine, I would cast my spells. It made things complicated, requiring more strategy, but it was a ton of fun! The comedy and RP value far outweighed the inconvenience.
I live with several severe autoimmune conditions. If I don’t get back to you right away, it’s probably because I’m not feeling well.
The "appropriate anatomy" portion of the rule is explicitly in place to avoid PCs mounting other PCs, while at the same time leaving just enough wiggle room for the DM to rule otherwise if they desire. In practice, its not a feasible scenario, at least if you want both combatants at peak performance. Humanoids just don't have good anatomy for acting as a mount.
But some games like to be wacky and handwave this sort of thing. Really depends on your group.
Is it impractical and silly? Yes. And that’s why I love it. But for real, the Half-Orc basically adopted this Goblin in the first session (Their names are Gorg and Mink (Bonus points if you get the reference (which was accidental XD))) so this could be a cool role playing tool.
Except, of course, that custom shields have nothing to do with people riding on each other's shoulders so it's a non sequitur.
54MU31, if you think that it's a fun idea and you want to allow your players to do it, I see no reason why they couldn't. Just make sure that you work out how it's going work so that there are no surprises because it will require some houserules. For example, I'd say that the goblin could never move more than half it's movement in the same turn as it is being carried/piggy back rides. It would probably also have disadvantage on Dex saves and melee attacks simply because they're busy holding on. On the other hand, I'd probably allow half cover for the goblin when calculating AC if the attacks come from the "right" direction.
I'd also let the player know in advance that if this leads to too much shennanigans, they will have to stop doing it. If they can't accept that, they can't do it at all.
One player running two different characters is rarely a good idea.
In this case the potential for rules abuse is immense. Imagine if you will, both the Half-Orc and the Goblin using Lances. 15 feet long pointy sticks. What happens when they charge? Can they both use their lances in one hand? This is a D12 weapon. I suppose they could even *throw* the goofy things if it suits them, although a 6 pound weapon might not travel that far. Just how many of them can they carry? Can they each have one in each hand? Four lances, all at the same target. Just for fun let's make them both Fighters so they can get two attacks on the Attack Action. How many total times can they poke the same target if they both burn an Action Surge? Throw in some Feats and Fighting Styles for good measure. When it comes down to Bonus Actions and Attacks of Opportunity all hell is going to break loose.
I get a headache just thinking about all the ways a Half-Orc with a Goblin riding on them could end up causing rules arguments 4D12 damage, strength mods, or maybe go with some nice dex builds. Half-Orc Barbarian running along (with higher base speed) swinging a pair of lances while raging with a berserk Goblin on their back. Can we switch all mention of Strength over to Dexterity, and use Finesse while in a Cold Rage? (Yes, there was a thread once where someone asked to do just that. Lances and mounted combat were not mentioned.)
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Raw: Yes PCs can ride PCs. As long as the DM allows it basically. And RAW it doesn't occupy a hand or reduce movement (as long as the mounted PC is not over encumbered).
Your problem with mounting a PC seems to only be the mounted rules themselves and nothing to do with it involving 2 Pcs.
Also, is needing a homebrew item to remove a homebrew penalty really a slippery slope into making a homebrew item to circumvent RAW penalties? Because it seems like the opposite since the DM is specifically making things harder than RAW.
You can't throw lances and the things you mention about fighters and action surge has nothing to do with being mounted at all, really.
I am aware that Lances cannot traditionally be thrown weapons. There is no specific rule which prevents this.
As for Fighters and Action Surge, class and level is not mentioned in the Original Post. Both the Half-Orc and the Goblin could be Fighters of high enough level to use Action Surge and it seems relevant to mounted combat to me at least.
You didn't answer a single one of my questions. Not one. I never asked if Lances could be thrown.
I simply tried to point out that once you leave the rules behind things become complicated very quickly. This is the Rules And Game Mechanics forum.
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