I don't see where create bonfire says that it creates light. Maybe you're mistaken, though it makes your username somewhat ironic.
We do have examples of fire spells producing enough light to be mechanically significant: produce flame. Notice that it actually describes the light using mechanical terms.
By the way, even if darkness did dispell a cantrip, I'm not sure that I'd call that a good use of resources.
Running a campaign and my players are just setting EVERYTHING on fire with Create Bonfire. Blocking doors, blocking hallways, setting groups of enemies on fire. Is this me or is it really overpowered? Kind of wondering what to do about this spell as it is just getting used to the extent it feels like it unbalances the game play pretty hard.
Just to be clear, they didn't set the door on fire, they put fires in a hallway as a way to keep a group of attackers from reaching them, but this was just after they set a whole camp of raiders on fire, used fire to spook some horses and just generally went a little pyro-happy.
It's actually the opposite of OP, because it requires concentration. It's also a save-or-suck for a measly 1d8 fire damage. You can only have one bonfire going at a time (unless there are flammable objects for the bonfire to set on fire). Were you taking that into account, or does your adventure have plenty of things to set alight?
Like Chew4u said, impose repercussions if your players burn stuff recklessly and overuse that spell. Not every problem in D&D can be solved with fire, right?
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Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
I don't see where create bonfire says that it creates light.
The part where is says it creates a bonfire.
Let me state it differently then: I don't see where it says that it creates light that the rules care about. It doesn't give a radius of bright or dim light. It doesn't shed any light that provides any creature the ability to see any differently than if the bonfire were not there. Therefore, it creates no area of light that could leave it open to being dispelled by darkness.
I don't see where create bonfire says that it creates light.
The part where is says it creates a bonfire.
Let me state it differently then: I don't see where it says that it creates light that the rules care about. It doesn't give a radius of bright or dim light. It doesn't shed any light that provides any creature the ability to see any differently than if the bonfire were not there. Therefore, it creates no area of light that could leave it open to being dispelled by darkness.
Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.
Yeah, I think my impressions are all wrong... they aren't BONEFIRE bonefires... you'd be able to see over the thing and if you can do that, you can shoot over it... shoot a long bow at that nice, juicy, low AC spell caster.
Still... this "flames not too high" thing is the winner-winner-chicken-dinner answer, me thinks.
This thread has been resolved.
OP stated something along the lines that they didn't realize the flames were only 5ft tall, so my best guess is that they thought that create bonfire blocked vision due to flames/smoke or something, and that people wouldn't want to run through massive fires.
As they realized here, the first part isn't true (magical bonfires do not produce smoke), and the second part isn't as much of a issue because the damage is only a 1d8 to 4d8, in other words not as that big or intimidating of a fire as one might think.
I don't see where create bonfire says that it creates light.
The part where is says it creates a bonfire.
Let me state it differently then: I don't see where it says that it creates light that the rules care about. It doesn't give a radius of bright or dim light. It doesn't shed any light that provides any creature the ability to see any differently than if the bonfire were not there. Therefore, it creates no area of light that could leave it open to being dispelled by darkness.
Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.
Yea, it says right there a specific radius. A bonfire doesn't create any area of light within any specific radius.
1) Darkness does not put out all spells that create light, only spells that create 'an area of light'
2) Most objects are not flamable. Basically if it is not described as wooden, paper/book, or oil, it is not flamable. Even some wood is not flamable if you apply certain varnishes. (Modern ones exist, so should magical ones). Most doors designed not to be broken down by someone with a strength of 16 should not be flamable.
3) In general starting lots of fires is a BAD IDEA. Would you be stupid enough to set a chest on fire? Here are the things I would do if players started doing this a lot.
Destroying treasure. Whoops, the spellbooks, scrolls, secret messages, potions, bows, arrows, shields, leather armor, were all behind that door you lit on fire. They are damaged beyond use. Also there was 300 gp, but it has melted together into one chunk - worth approximately 150 gp as melted gold instead of coins.
Hm, the fire seems to have spread. You are now in a forest fire/burning building/dungeon full of smoke. Hope you can make it out of there alive. (Smoke kills more people than fire and it is a bad idea to do that indoors.)
Thank god you put out the fire before the smoke killed all of you. But the remains of the smoke seem to have alerted every bad guy for miles.
Wow, you made it away from all those angry villains. But the City Marshal / Druid Council want to talk to you. Despite the objections of some, these high level people have decided NOT to simply execute you for Arson. Instead you are being Banished. You must relocate at least 100 miles and never return.
It does not say that it is visible at all, so I suppose it is an invisible bonfire? Anyone trying to move through it has to make a dex save to get past it and gets stuck there if they fail, so it must actually occupy that 5' x 5' space too. It does fire damage but does not say it is warm.
Are you implying that all spells that are visible produce light? Are you implying that all spells that produce any light create areas of light? Those are wrong. A spell can be visible without shedding light (minor illusion), and a spell can produce what would have to be described as light without lighting up a room (sacred flame). In fact, my supposition is that a spell that doesn't tell you it does something (create an area of light) doesn't do that thing (create an area of light). If you disagree with that, well, that is a fundamental difference on how the rules work.
Presumably, since we are not told otherwise, it has the basic properties of a bonfire, which would include shedding light.
What specific radius? What area of light is created that could overlap with darkness? Remember that darkness tells us that it only affects spells that create an area of light, which is a specific thing in the rules: they specify how areas work (a point of origin and a radius can specify one) and what constitutes shedding light mechanically. Sure, fires are said to give light, but create bonfire doesn't create light within a specific radius.
And again, we know what spells that shed light look like: they tell you how much light they shed.
And if you have decided that fire spells shed light even if they don't say so, then for what radius? And does the mote of my Fire Bolt shed light all the way on its travel out to 120ft or is it just at the point of impact?
But mechanics have details. For example, when a light source in 5e sheds light, it will tell you a specific range - the rules for light are clear on that. Do you disagree on that fundamental of the rules as well? If not, then what text tells you how much light the bonfire produces?
And let me get this clear: You do fundamentally disagree that a spell's description tells you its effect?
Because if you did agree that a spell's description told you its effect, then we'd have to limit the effect of a spell to what is actually in its description.
You seem to disagree that spells tell you what they do and don't do. That is a fundamental disagreement.
If the spell creates fire and all fire creates light, then the spell results in light. The spell failing to tell you how much light is extremely in-keeping with WOTC's lazy design philosophy.
As a DM with a PC who knows the spell, I can unequivocally tell you that I allow my PCs to use the spell to e.g. read, because the bonfire creates at least the bare minimum of light (which is filling its own space with dim).
You seem to disagree that spells tell you what they do and don't do. That is a fundamental disagreement.
If the spell creates fire and all fire creates light, then the spell results in light. The spell failing to tell you how much light is extremely in-keeping with WOTC's lazy design philosophy.
That isn't quite what the rules say. Fires don't produce light. Fires produce bright light within a specified radius. The radius specified by create bonfire is null.
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Some are confusing light create by the spell and light created by an EFFECT of the spell. Those are two different things. It is the difference between casting Identify on an object and casting Commune and asking your God is that necklace with your holy symbol on it a necklace of Prayer Beads. They both get a similar result, but one will tell you a lot more
If the spell itself directly creates light, then it is dispelled by Darkness. If the spell does something else, such as create a fire, and that something else happens to create light, then Darkness does not dispel the spell, though it will block the light.
Wow, that is some intention stretching logic (null implies nonexistent) that doesn’t address the issues that I just raised and therefore doesn’t need direct rebuttal.
Another necro.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
Darkness will dispel Create Bonfire. Fires in D&D create light. This is a conjuration spell not an illusions. It is real fire. It creatures light.
I don't see where create bonfire says that it creates light. Maybe you're mistaken, though it makes your username somewhat ironic.
We do have examples of fire spells producing enough light to be mechanically significant: produce flame. Notice that it actually describes the light using mechanical terms.
By the way, even if darkness did dispell a cantrip, I'm not sure that I'd call that a good use of resources.
It's actually the opposite of OP, because it requires concentration. It's also a save-or-suck for a measly 1d8 fire damage. You can only have one bonfire going at a time (unless there are flammable objects for the bonfire to set on fire). Were you taking that into account, or does your adventure have plenty of things to set alight?
Like Chew4u said, impose repercussions if your players burn stuff recklessly and overuse that spell. Not every problem in D&D can be solved with fire, right?
Brains over brawn? Mind over matter? These canny warriors rightly answer, "Why not both?" - Tasha
My Homebrews: Monsters, Magic Items, Spells, Races
Rhulg- Hobgoblin Gunsmith
The part where is says it creates a bonfire.
I got quotes!
Let me state it differently then: I don't see where it says that it creates light that the rules care about. It doesn't give a radius of bright or dim light. It doesn't shed any light that provides any creature the ability to see any differently than if the bonfire were not there. Therefore, it creates no area of light that could leave it open to being dispelled by darkness.
It creates a bonfire.
The rules on light at https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/adventuring#VisionandLight say:
This thread has been resolved.
OP stated something along the lines that they didn't realize the flames were only 5ft tall, so my best guess is that they thought that create bonfire blocked vision due to flames/smoke or something, and that people wouldn't want to run through massive fires.
As they realized here, the first part isn't true (magical bonfires do not produce smoke), and the second part isn't as much of a issue because the damage is only a 1d8 to 4d8, in other words not as that big or intimidating of a fire as one might think.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Yea, it says right there a specific radius. A bonfire doesn't create any area of light within any specific radius.
1) Darkness does not put out all spells that create light, only spells that create 'an area of light'
2) Most objects are not flamable. Basically if it is not described as wooden, paper/book, or oil, it is not flamable. Even some wood is not flamable if you apply certain varnishes. (Modern ones exist, so should magical ones). Most doors designed not to be broken down by someone with a strength of 16 should not be flamable.
3) In general starting lots of fires is a BAD IDEA. Would you be stupid enough to set a chest on fire? Here are the things I would do if players started doing this a lot.
Are you implying that all spells that are visible produce light? Are you implying that all spells that produce any light create areas of light? Those are wrong. A spell can be visible without shedding light (minor illusion), and a spell can produce what would have to be described as light without lighting up a room (sacred flame). In fact, my supposition is that a spell that doesn't tell you it does something (create an area of light) doesn't do that thing (create an area of light). If you disagree with that, well, that is a fundamental difference on how the rules work.
What specific radius? What area of light is created that could overlap with darkness? Remember that darkness tells us that it only affects spells that create an area of light, which is a specific thing in the rules: they specify how areas work (a point of origin and a radius can specify one) and what constitutes shedding light mechanically. Sure, fires are said to give light, but create bonfire doesn't create light within a specific radius.
And again, we know what spells that shed light look like: they tell you how much light they shed.
Yea I have to agree with Wolf here.
If you say that Create Bonfire should be dispelled then how do you treat other fire spells? Does Darkness also makes you immune to spells like Fire Bolt or Scorching Ray or Burning Hands (and two of these have the same "ignites flammable objects" that Create Bonfire have).
And does the fire being green factor in? Yay or Nay to Green-flame Blade?
And if you have decided that fire spells shed light even if they don't say so, then for what radius? And does the mote of my Fire Bolt shed light all the way on its travel out to 120ft or is it just at the point of impact?
Ok. How much light? What text tells you that?
You seem to disagree that spells tell you what they do and don't do. That is a fundamental disagreement.
But mechanics have details. For example, when a light source in 5e sheds light, it will tell you a specific range - the rules for light are clear on that. Do you disagree on that fundamental of the rules as well? If not, then what text tells you how much light the bonfire produces?
And let me get this clear: You do fundamentally disagree that a spell's description tells you its effect?
Because if you did agree that a spell's description told you its effect, then we'd have to limit the effect of a spell to what is actually in its description.
If the spell creates fire and all fire creates light, then the spell results in light. The spell failing to tell you how much light is extremely in-keeping with WOTC's lazy design philosophy.
As a DM with a PC who knows the spell, I can unequivocally tell you that I allow my PCs to use the spell to e.g. read, because the bonfire creates at least the bare minimum of light (which is filling its own space with dim).
That isn't quite what the rules say. Fires don't produce light. Fires produce bright light within a specified radius. The radius specified by create bonfire is null.
People are missing the key feature.
Some are confusing light create by the spell and light created by an EFFECT of the spell. Those are two different things. It is the difference between casting Identify on an object and casting Commune and asking your God is that necklace with your holy symbol on it a necklace of Prayer Beads. They both get a similar result, but one will tell you a lot more
If the spell itself directly creates light, then it is dispelled by Darkness. If the spell does something else, such as create a fire, and that something else happens to create light, then Darkness does not dispel the spell, though it will block the light.
That is wrong. The spell does not specify a radius at all, rather than specifying a radius of null.
It does, however, specify that a bonfire appears - and the rules on Light specify that fire will produce light.
The only DM decision is how far the light from a bonfire will reach, since there isn't a specific value given in any rule.
Wow, that is some intention stretching logic (null implies nonexistent) that doesn’t address the issues that I just raised and therefore doesn’t need direct rebuttal.