So your argument is that the spell is not limited by its description on the light that it creates. Fine. Who decided how far from darkness spells are conjured bonfires dispelled? If that is anything but the rules that tell you then it is necessarily houserule.
So my question is, and I hope I didn’t miss it if it was already asked, if you cast Create bonfire and then someone else cast the spell Darkness over it, is the spell dispelled? Or is it just covered in darkness but if someone enters the 5’ cube they still take fire damage?
I don’t think anyone disputes that a bonfire sheds light. But as I and many others have said in many threads, that spells only do what they say they do. If it isn’t in the stat block or description then it doesn’t do it. Create Bonfire says nothing about shedding bright light X feet and dim light Y feet so any inference isn’t part of the spells effect. So it seems reasonable, with this interpretation, that it wouldn’t be dispelled by Darkness (as there is no “area of light” created by the spell) and you can still take damage from it as long as the caster is still concentrating on it.
Darkness says:
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Create Bonfire has no such description in its…well…description.
Fires produce light in a specified area (specified by what radius of bright and/or dim light it produces). That is per the rule that everyone keeps half quoting saying that all fires create light. They only create as much light as they say they do. Per that rule that you love to quote. The end.
Darkness specifies that it dispels spells that create an area of light. Areas of light are a particular thing: a radius and an origin according to 5e.
Lacking an area of light, a spell is not dispelled by darkness.
None of those are incorrect, so that lead to the initial statement: darkness doesn't dispel create bonfire.
So my question is, and I hope I didn’t miss it if it was already asked, if you cast Create bonfire and then someone else cast the spell Darkness over it, is the spell dispelled? Or is it just covered in darkness but if someone enters the 5’ cube they still take fire damage?
I don’t think anyone disputes that a bonfire sheds light. But as I and many others have said in many threads, that spells only do what they say they do. If it isn’t in the stat block or description then it doesn’t do it. Create Bonfire says nothing about shedding bright light X feet and dim light Y feet so any inference isn’t part of the spells effect. So it seems reasonable, with this interpretation, that it wouldn’t be dispelled by Darkness (as there is no “area of light” created by the spell) and you can still take damage from it as long as the caster is still concentrating on it.
Darkness says:
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Create Bonfire has no such description in its…well…description.
You can't create a bonfire in an area of darkness unless you have devil's sight or some other way to see in magical darkness, but I'd imagine that the spell would still exist if darkness were cast over it. At least that's how I'd rule.
So my question is, and I hope I didn’t miss it if it was already asked, if you cast Create bonfire and then someone else cast the spell Darkness over it, is the spell dispelled? Or is it just covered in darkness but if someone enters the 5’ cube they still take fire damage?
I don’t think anyone disputes that a bonfire sheds light. But as I and many others have said in many threads, that spells only do what they say they do. If it isn’t in the stat block or description then it doesn’t do it. Create Bonfire says nothing about shedding bright light X feet and dim light Y feet so any inference isn’t part of the spells effect. So it seems reasonable, with this interpretation, that it wouldn’t be dispelled by Darkness (as there is no “area of light” created by the spell) and you can still take damage from it as long as the caster is still concentrating on it.
Darkness says:
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Create Bonfire has no such description in its…well…description.
You can't create a bonfire in an area of darkness unless you have devil's sight or some other way to see in magical darkness, but I'd imagine that the spell would still exist if darkness were cast over it. At least that's how I'd rule.
You'd let a cantrip overwrite a 2nd level spell? Not sure that's what most people would do.
It seems to me that if the spell does not state that the bonfire is invisible, it would not be invisible. Therefore this creates a fire that fills a 5ft cube. All fires that are not magically invisible create light. In D&D, fires are stated to create bright light even.
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of these 8 spells 6 of them specifically describe the light they produce, how far they illuminate in bright light, and how far they illuminate in dim light.
The only two that don't mention light are Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire. Wall of Fire is particularly interesting as it does describe the wall as being opaque.
By and large though if a spell is intended to produce light it is specifically described as doing so. The fact that Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire do not mention producing light may be an error. However, in the absence of an errata or sage advice clarifying the matter the assumption should be that Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire do not produce light and their lack of text to the contrary is deliberate. Otherwise there would have been no need to describe how all of the other spells produce light.
For those that want to play Create Bonfire as producing light then Flaming Sphere seems like a good point of comparison as it creates a similar volume of fire.
So your argument is that the spell is not limited by its description on the light that it creates. Fine. Who decided how far from darkness spells are conjured bonfires dispelled? If that is anything but the rules that tell you then it is necessarily houserule.
You say houserule like it is some sort of dirty word. The game designers are humans and did not, could not, anticipate every question.
You still have not answered my question regarding normal bonfires. Or are you of the opinion that only specific items with listed light radii are flammable, or alternatively, that only fires with specified lighting radii actually produce light?
In a forum for Rules as Written, yes. Let’s look at Produce Flame:
A flickering flame appears in your hand. The flame remains there for the duration and harms neither you nor your equipment. The flame sheds bright light in a 10-foot radius and dim light for an additional 10 feet. The spell ends if you dismiss it as an action or if you cast it again.
You can also attack with the flame, although doing so ends the spell. When you cast this spell, or as an action on a later turn, you can hurl the flame at a creature within 30 feet of you. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 fire damage.
This spell's damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8).
I have a ball of flame in my hand and I can throw it at a goblin (that can move and dodge) within 30’ of me it it hits it does fire damage. Can I throw the ball of flame at a wooden table 10’ from me and set it on fire? It does fire damage and the table probably has stats for HP in case the Barbarian wants to smack it with its Maul. Answer: No I can’t. I am physically unable to throw a ball of flame at a wooden table that is completely stationary because the spell does not say I can target an object and does not say it ignites flammable objects even though it does fire damage.
The wording of spells matters in a game of rules, especially in a Rules as Written forum.
Oh, but the spell does specifically say it sheds light in 10’ bright light and 10’ dim light so this spell, indeed, would be dispelled by Darkness
So my question is, and I hope I didn’t miss it if it was already asked, if you cast Create bonfire and then someone else cast the spell Darkness over it, is the spell dispelled? Or is it just covered in darkness but if someone enters the 5’ cube they still take fire damage?
I don’t think anyone disputes that a bonfire sheds light. But as I and many others have said in many threads, that spells only do what they say they do. If it isn’t in the stat block or description then it doesn’t do it. Create Bonfire says nothing about shedding bright light X feet and dim light Y feet so any inference isn’t part of the spells effect. So it seems reasonable, with this interpretation, that it wouldn’t be dispelled by Darkness (as there is no “area of light” created by the spell) and you can still take damage from it as long as the caster is still concentrating on it.
Darkness says:
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Create Bonfire has no such description in its…well…description.
You can't create a bonfire in an area of darkness unless you have devil's sight or some other way to see in magical darkness, but I'd imagine that the spell would still exist if darkness were cast over it. At least that's how I'd rule.
I never said cast Create Bonfire in an area of Darkness, but cast CB first then someone else cast Darkness over top of it.
You'd let a cantrip overwrite a 2nd level spell? Not sure that's what most people would do.
You'd have a spell do something that it doesn't say that it does? Not sure that's what most people would do.
I'd have it create a bonfire. The thing it says it does. Bonfires light up an area.
I can throw a rock at a person or a tree or a house but I can only throw Produce Flame at a creature because the spell only does what it says it does. Even though there isn’t much difference between a rock and the ball of fire ( except one being magic). Odd how rules matter.
It would suck if your flaming sphere got dispelled when you tried to crash it into the bad guy inside -- or even next to -- the darkness spell, but at least that would be an interaction that is clear from the rules in darkness, the rules on light, and the rules in flaming sphere.
Create bonfire is missing the text that tells you it creates an area of light.
What I am wondering is why does it say in the create bonfire header description Range/Area 60ft (5ft cube)?
Would that mean it creates bright light for 30ft and dim light for 30ft?
Or bright light for 60ft and dim light for 60ft?
No it means you can summon the bonfire up to 60 ft away, but it effects only a 5ft cube
Edit:
As for the debate, I get that create bonfire is a bonfire, but bonfires aren't defined in D&D and even if they were, the spell creates a magical bonfire. The game clearly makes a difference between magical light (which does not follow normal conventional standards of light) and nonmagical light.
Consider that Wall of Fire does not produce light. Clearly spells do not produce nonmagical light naturally (else nonmagical light wouldn't be so nonmagical would it?) and producing magical light presumably requires extra magic or something (hence stuff like Light) otherwise all spells would be emitting light.
In other words magical fire =/= nonmagical fire. Spells do what they say and no more, you want it to emit light? Grab the light cantrip that's what it's made for.
I am curious what you believe a wall of fire looks like, considering it is an opaque wall yet sheds no light. If you are correct, it should likely be renamed 'Heat Curtain' or something.
I can understand a balancing argument with create bonfire, since it is also a cantrip, but using a 4th level spell slot to provide lighting? And having to be careful where you place it too, since it is flaming?
A light spell lasts an hour, requiring no concentration. Wall of Fire or Create Bonfire last one minute and require concentration. They are not competitive as light sources.
Are you asking as to whether the names of spells carry mechanical weight? Of course not.
The English language carries weight in so far as the rules are written in it, and the rules tell you what they do. Does the sentence "You create a wall of fire..." tell you (as the rules require for fires that shed light) how much light it sheds?
Remember that the rule is not 'All fires create light;' those are your words. The actual rule is "Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius." All mechanically significant light from small sources tell you how much light is shed. So if you're not just railing on the name or some single word (with the details of mechanics not tied specifically to it), then please, what RULES other than a half a sentence (that you clearly misinterpreted) are you actually using to come up with the idea that fire = light?
And again, just like the name, the LOOK of the spell is immaterial to its mechanics. Apparently a wall of fire doesn't shed light, because the spell itself doesn't tell us it does, and no other rule does either. Whatever else it looks like does not matter.
So your argument is that the spell is not limited by its description on the light that it creates. Fine. Who decided how far from darkness spells are conjured bonfires dispelled? If that is anything but the rules that tell you then it is necessarily houserule.
So my question is, and I hope I didn’t miss it if it was already asked, if you cast Create bonfire and then someone else cast the spell Darkness over it, is the spell dispelled? Or is it just covered in darkness but if someone enters the 5’ cube they still take fire damage?
I don’t think anyone disputes that a bonfire sheds light. But as I and many others have said in many threads, that spells only do what they say they do. If it isn’t in the stat block or description then it doesn’t do it. Create Bonfire says nothing about shedding bright light X feet and dim light Y feet so any inference isn’t part of the spells effect. So it seems reasonable, with this interpretation, that it wouldn’t be dispelled by Darkness (as there is no “area of light” created by the spell) and you can still take damage from it as long as the caster is still concentrating on it.
Darkness says:
If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Create Bonfire has no such description in its…well…description.
My suppositions are:
None of those are incorrect, so that lead to the initial statement: darkness doesn't dispel create bonfire.
Summoned creatures are weightless because the spell text doesn't specific an exact weight in Lbs. Makes sense, makes sense.
IDK. The only alternative would be if it acted like a normal whatever it was that the spell summoned.
I got quotes!
You can't create a bonfire in an area of darkness unless you have devil's sight or some other way to see in magical darkness, but I'd imagine that the spell would still exist if darkness were cast over it. At least that's how I'd rule.
You'd let a cantrip overwrite a 2nd level spell? Not sure that's what most people would do.
I got quotes!
You'd have a spell do something that it doesn't say that it does? Not sure that's what most people would do.
I'd have it create a bonfire. The thing it says it does. Bonfires light up an area.
I got quotes!
Do they? Where do the rules tell you how much area?
Summoned creatures have a stat block and we use those. Most probably don’t have weights but just use sizes.
It seems to me that if the spell does not state that the bonfire is invisible, it would not be invisible. Therefore this creates a fire that fills a 5ft cube. All fires that are not magically invisible create light. In D&D, fires are stated to create bright light even.
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Spells that create a persisting (non-instantaneous) flame:
Create Bonfire, Produce Flame, Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere, Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Immolation, Investiture of Flame
of these 8 spells 6 of them specifically describe the light they produce, how far they illuminate in bright light, and how far they illuminate in dim light.
The only two that don't mention light are Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire. Wall of Fire is particularly interesting as it does describe the wall as being opaque.
By and large though if a spell is intended to produce light it is specifically described as doing so. The fact that Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire do not mention producing light may be an error. However, in the absence of an errata or sage advice clarifying the matter the assumption should be that Create Bonfire, and Wall of Fire do not produce light and their lack of text to the contrary is deliberate. Otherwise there would have been no need to describe how all of the other spells produce light.
For those that want to play Create Bonfire as producing light then Flaming Sphere seems like a good point of comparison as it creates a similar volume of fire.
In a forum for Rules as Written, yes. Let’s look at Produce Flame:
I have a ball of flame in my hand and I can throw it at a goblin (that can move and dodge) within 30’ of me it it hits it does fire damage. Can I throw the ball of flame at a wooden table 10’ from me and set it on fire? It does fire damage and the table probably has stats for HP in case the Barbarian wants to smack it with its Maul. Answer: No I can’t. I am physically unable to throw a ball of flame at a wooden table that is completely stationary because the spell does not say I can target an object and does not say it ignites flammable objects even though it does fire damage.
The wording of spells matters in a game of rules, especially in a Rules as Written forum.
Oh, but the spell does specifically say it sheds light in 10’ bright light and 10’ dim light so this spell, indeed, would be dispelled by Darkness
I never said cast Create Bonfire in an area of Darkness, but cast CB first then someone else cast Darkness over top of it.
I can throw a rock at a person or a tree or a house but I can only throw Produce Flame at a creature because the spell only does what it says it does. Even though there isn’t much difference between a rock and the ball of fire ( except one being magic). Odd how rules matter.
It would suck if your flaming sphere got dispelled when you tried to crash it into the bad guy inside -- or even next to -- the darkness spell, but at least that would be an interaction that is clear from the rules in darkness, the rules on light, and the rules in flaming sphere.
Create bonfire is missing the text that tells you it creates an area of light.
What I am wondering is why does it say in the create bonfire header description Range/Area 60ft (5ft cube)?
Would that mean it creates bright light for 30ft and dim light for 30ft?
Or bright light for 60ft and dim light for 60ft?
Byte my shiny metal ass
No it means you can summon the bonfire up to 60 ft away, but it effects only a 5ft cube
Edit:
As for the debate, I get that create bonfire is a bonfire, but bonfires aren't defined in D&D and even if they were, the spell creates a magical bonfire. The game clearly makes a difference between magical light (which does not follow normal conventional standards of light) and nonmagical light.
Consider that Wall of Fire does not produce light. Clearly spells do not produce nonmagical light naturally (else nonmagical light wouldn't be so nonmagical would it?) and producing magical light presumably requires extra magic or something (hence stuff like Light) otherwise all spells would be emitting light.
In other words magical fire =/= nonmagical fire. Spells do what they say and no more, you want it to emit light? Grab the light cantrip that's what it's made for.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Are you asking as to whether the names of spells carry mechanical weight? Of course not.
The English language carries weight in so far as the rules are written in it, and the rules tell you what they do. Does the sentence "You create a wall of fire..." tell you (as the rules require for fires that shed light) how much light it sheds?
Remember that the rule is not 'All fires create light;' those are your words. The actual rule is "Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius." All mechanically significant light from small sources tell you how much light is shed. So if you're not just railing on the name or some single word (with the details of mechanics not tied specifically to it), then please, what RULES other than a half a sentence (that you clearly misinterpreted) are you actually using to come up with the idea that fire = light?
And again, just like the name, the LOOK of the spell is immaterial to its mechanics. Apparently a wall of fire doesn't shed light, because the spell itself doesn't tell us it does, and no other rule does either. Whatever else it looks like does not matter.