So I have a quick question but have you ever had someone try to roll to disbelieve a Blur and Mirror image ie Roll an Investigation to perceive that it is an illusion. If so what happened did they see though it or no
It normally require special senses to see through illusions. If a DM allow you to make a check to disbelieve such illusion spells, it will tell you how it resolve.
No, I don't believe I have had anyone attempt to disbelieve Blur or Mirror Image.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that trying to negate either spell effect in the manner that you describe will not work. The methods for bypassing the effect are pretty clearly defined in the spell descriptions.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I guess you could close your eyes and get around mirror image that way. That would give you disadvantage, which blur gives you as well, so it's a wash there.
While Mirror Image, and Blur are described as illusions 5e does not have a general 'roll to disbelieve' mechanic. In 5e the ways you can defeat an illusion are explicitly stated in the spell's description.
For example spells like Minor Illusion say that you can use your action to make an Investigation check against the spells DC to see through the illusion. Also Minor Illusion states that physical interaction with the illusion reveals it to be an illusion, no skill check required. Neither of these things are true for Mirror Image, and Blur.
The best way to overcome these effects, even if stacked, is to try to get advantage on your attack by like flanking or something, then just close your eyes prior to attacking. You'll entirely bypass mirror images and blurs effects, which both interfere with your ability to correctly see, since you're like, not seeing. Now all you gotta deal with is the unseen target disadvantage penalty, which your advantage cancels out. So straight d20 rolls.
Some illusions do have specific rules for disbelieving them. But, that is coming from the spell effect directly, even if it does pop up in a lot of them, it isn't universal. Others have gone into this plenty. Good examples found above.
I guess you could close your eyes and get around mirror image that way. That would give you disadvantage, which blur gives you as well, so it's a wash there.
The best way to overcome these effects, even if stacked, is to try to get advantage on your attack by like flanking or something, then just close your eyes prior to attacking. You'll entirely bypass mirror images and blurs effects, which both interfere with your ability to correctly see, since you're like, not seeing. Now all you gotta deal with is the unseen target disadvantage penalty, which your advantage cancels out. So straight d20 rolls.
Some illusions do have specific rules for disbelieving them. But, that is coming from the spell effect directly, even if it does pop up in a lot of them, it isn't universal. Others have gone into this plenty. Good examples found above.
I would disagree with these. Because the duplicates still have AC, so you might still "hit" one of them. Additionally, you would be intentionally swinging at something that you saw before you closed your eyes, which may be one of the duplicates.
I don't agree with the "I close my eyes and negate this 2nd level spell" argument at all.
I only bring it up because the spells make specific allowances for attacks that do not rely on sight. And you aren't negating the spell. You are trading one disadvantage for a different one.
I only bring it up because the spells make specific allowances for attacks that do not rely on sight. And you aren't negating the spell. You are trading one disadvantage for a different one.
It says for attacks that do not rely on sight and lists blindsight or truesight. If you close your eyes and swing where you last saw your target, you are still relying on sight to make that attack. It's pretty clear that they are saying that having an ability that lets you "see" without sight (blindsight, tremorsense, truesight, etc.) bypasses this. Not because you close your eyes and swing.
You are picking a target out of up to four to hit. The other senses bypass this, because they do not register on their radars. Duplicates make no sound, cause vibrations in the ground, and truesight just straight sees through illusions so the duplicates don't even show up to them.
Closing your eyes doesn't magically let you know which of the four targets in front of you was real.
What if you're in plain old non-magical darkness, and you cannot see in the dark? Would you still apply mirror image or blur in that case? Does that meet the standard from the spell's description in your opinion?
I guess you could close your eyes and get around mirror image that way. That would give you disadvantage, which blur gives you as well, so it's a wash there.
The best way to overcome these effects, even if stacked, is to try to get advantage on your attack by like flanking or something, then just close your eyes prior to attacking. You'll entirely bypass mirror images and blurs effects, which both interfere with your ability to correctly see, since you're like, not seeing. Now all you gotta deal with is the unseen target disadvantage penalty, which your advantage cancels out. So straight d20 rolls.
Some illusions do have specific rules for disbelieving them. But, that is coming from the spell effect directly, even if it does pop up in a lot of them, it isn't universal. Others have gone into this plenty. Good examples found above.
I would disagree with these. Because the duplicates still have AC, so you might still "hit" one of them. Additionally, you would be intentionally swinging at something that you saw before you closed your eyes, which may be one of the duplicates.
I don't agree with the "I close my eyes and negate this 2nd level spell" argument at all.
Please read the spell effect. It isn't an "argument"... it is just what the spell says happens.
mirror image the last line. It says: "A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."
If your eyes are closed you can't see. So, unaffected. The spell effects tells us this directly.
Wow, so you can really defeat a 2nd level spell by just saying "I close my eyes!" Because now you have a 50% chance of hitting as opposed to a 25% chance. That seems like a really poor design. Closing your eyes to swing at someone casting Mirror Image has literally no downside. Especially if you have advantage from another source! Then that person just absolutely wasted a 2nd level spell for 0 benefit.
Wow, so you can really defeat a 2nd level spell by just saying "I close my eyes!" Because now you have a 50% chance of hitting as opposed to a 25% chance. That seems like a really poor design. Closing your eyes to swing at someone casting Mirror Image has literally no downside. Especially if you have advantage from another source! Then that person just absolutely wasted a 2nd level spell for 0 benefit.
That 100% would not fly at my table.
It may seem unbalanced at first glance but really it isn't. Mirror Image prevents at most a total of 3 hits. But closing your eyes to ignore the spell effect risks missing every attack you make.
Long term, it is better to burn through the mirror images. But combat tends to reward frontloading effects, not long term efficiency. So there is an interesting interplay and your decision here could go either way. Which is why it creates an interesting choice. Burn through the 3 images and hit normally again, or, risk higher miss rate all the time but ignore the 3 misses from the spell?
For NPCs the choice is typically in favor of burning through the images, especially if they outnumber you. They can afford, then, to have several baddies burn their attacks going through your images. Because then you're vulnerable again right away.
But for PCs who often have crazy abilities and can often synergize better in a cooperative way to grant themselves advantage to counteract the disadvantage of being briefly blind, yeah, it might be favorable decision to close your eyes and ignore the enemy cultist's illusions.
Anyway, if you run the math, long-term it is better to burn through the images than to risk the extra miss-rate. But, as we know, short-term is often more important.
The caveat being: if they have both mirror images and blur going, you'll be attacking at disadvantage no matter what. So in this case, best to close your eyes and only have the disadvantage.
Closing your eyes also means your attackers have advantage against you, so mirror image not wasted. Unless you rule they can close and open their eyes during their turn, which would not fly at my table. One free action, or you are not really fighting blind, but just blinking.
I would definitely allow someone to close theirs eyes for one attack then open it up. That said, any reaction taken against you for attacking while eyes closed would have advantage.
Honestly, Blur and Mirror Image have lots of disadvantages. Many creatures have Blind sight. More importantly any save effect just ignores all this.
Compare Blur with Blink. Blur is 2nd level, Blink is 3rd.
So I have a quick question but have you ever had someone try to roll to disbelieve a Blur and Mirror image ie Roll an Investigation to perceive that it is an illusion. If so what happened did they see though it or no
It normally require special senses to see through illusions. If a DM allow you to make a check to disbelieve such illusion spells, it will tell you how it resolve.
No, I don't believe I have had anyone attempt to disbelieve Blur or Mirror Image.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that trying to negate either spell effect in the manner that you describe will not work. The methods for bypassing the effect are pretty clearly defined in the spell descriptions.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I guess you could close your eyes and get around mirror image that way. That would give you disadvantage, which blur gives you as well, so it's a wash there.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
While Mirror Image, and Blur are described as illusions 5e does not have a general 'roll to disbelieve' mechanic. In 5e the ways you can defeat an illusion are explicitly stated in the spell's description.
For example spells like Minor Illusion say that you can use your action to make an Investigation check against the spells DC to see through the illusion. Also Minor Illusion states that physical interaction with the illusion reveals it to be an illusion, no skill check required. Neither of these things are true for Mirror Image, and Blur.
The best way to overcome these effects, even if stacked, is to try to get advantage on your attack by like flanking or something, then just close your eyes prior to attacking. You'll entirely bypass mirror images and blurs effects, which both interfere with your ability to correctly see, since you're like, not seeing. Now all you gotta deal with is the unseen target disadvantage penalty, which your advantage cancels out. So straight d20 rolls.
Some illusions do have specific rules for disbelieving them. But, that is coming from the spell effect directly, even if it does pop up in a lot of them, it isn't universal. Others have gone into this plenty. Good examples found above.
I got quotes!
I would disagree with these. Because the duplicates still have AC, so you might still "hit" one of them. Additionally, you would be intentionally swinging at something that you saw before you closed your eyes, which may be one of the duplicates.
I don't agree with the "I close my eyes and negate this 2nd level spell" argument at all.
I only bring it up because the spells make specific allowances for attacks that do not rely on sight. And you aren't negating the spell. You are trading one disadvantage for a different one.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
It says for attacks that do not rely on sight and lists blindsight or truesight. If you close your eyes and swing where you last saw your target, you are still relying on sight to make that attack. It's pretty clear that they are saying that having an ability that lets you "see" without sight (blindsight, tremorsense, truesight, etc.) bypasses this. Not because you close your eyes and swing.
You are picking a target out of up to four to hit. The other senses bypass this, because they do not register on their radars. Duplicates make no sound, cause vibrations in the ground, and truesight just straight sees through illusions so the duplicates don't even show up to them.
Closing your eyes doesn't magically let you know which of the four targets in front of you was real.
What if you're in plain old non-magical darkness, and you cannot see in the dark? Would you still apply mirror image or blur in that case? Does that meet the standard from the spell's description in your opinion?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Please read the spell effect. It isn't an "argument"... it is just what the spell says happens.
mirror image the last line. It says: "A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."
If your eyes are closed you can't see. So, unaffected. The spell effects tells us this directly.
I got quotes!
Wow, so you can really defeat a 2nd level spell by just saying "I close my eyes!" Because now you have a 50% chance of hitting as opposed to a 25% chance. That seems like a really poor design. Closing your eyes to swing at someone casting Mirror Image has literally no downside. Especially if you have advantage from another source! Then that person just absolutely wasted a 2nd level spell for 0 benefit.
That 100% would not fly at my table.
It may seem unbalanced at first glance but really it isn't. Mirror Image prevents at most a total of 3 hits. But closing your eyes to ignore the spell effect risks missing every attack you make.
Long term, it is better to burn through the mirror images. But combat tends to reward frontloading effects, not long term efficiency. So there is an interesting interplay and your decision here could go either way. Which is why it creates an interesting choice. Burn through the 3 images and hit normally again, or, risk higher miss rate all the time but ignore the 3 misses from the spell?
For NPCs the choice is typically in favor of burning through the images, especially if they outnumber you. They can afford, then, to have several baddies burn their attacks going through your images. Because then you're vulnerable again right away.
But for PCs who often have crazy abilities and can often synergize better in a cooperative way to grant themselves advantage to counteract the disadvantage of being briefly blind, yeah, it might be favorable decision to close your eyes and ignore the enemy cultist's illusions.
Anyway, if you run the math, long-term it is better to burn through the images than to risk the extra miss-rate. But, as we know, short-term is often more important.
The caveat being: if they have both mirror images and blur going, you'll be attacking at disadvantage no matter what. So in this case, best to close your eyes and only have the disadvantage.
I got quotes!
Closing your eyes also means your attackers have advantage against you, so mirror image not wasted. Unless you rule they can close and open their eyes during their turn, which would not fly at my table. One free action, or you are not really fighting blind, but just blinking.
I would definitely allow someone to close theirs eyes for one attack then open it up. That said, any reaction taken against you for attacking while eyes closed would have advantage.
Honestly, Blur and Mirror Image have lots of disadvantages. Many creatures have Blind sight. More importantly any save effect just ignores all this.
Compare Blur with Blink. Blur is 2nd level, Blink is 3rd.