You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
I think too much emphasis is being placed on the “any spell” and should be on the “can use” of the third bullet point. You can use it on spells that use INT. But it isn’t required and follows the M components rule on using a focus. Meaning if no M component then you don’t/can’t use the artisan tool or any focus for casting.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
I think too much emphasis is being placed on the “any spell” and should be on the “can use” of the third bullet point. You can use it on spells that use INT. But it isn’t required and follows the M components rule on using a focus. Meaning if no M component then you don’t/can’t use the artisan tool or any focus for casting.
The emphasis should be on the "as a spellcasting focus."
Whenever anything can be used, usually means it's a choice.
I can choose not to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell or I can choose to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
And why does this specific third bullet point follow the general M component rule on using a focus? Why does everyone keep circling back to trying to force the general work to still work despite there being a clear example of a specific scenario of a focus being used for the casting of a spell with no M component?
The rule in D&D is no it doesn't, the specific beats the general. Not sometimes, or except when there are spells without M components. All the time, always, and forever... specific beats general.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Whenever anything can be used, usually means it's a choice.
I can choose not to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell or I can choose to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
And why does this specific third bullet point follow the general M component rule on using a focus? Why does everyone keep circling back to trying to force the general work to still work despite there being a clear example of a specific scenario of a focus being used for the casting of a spell with no M component?
The rule in D&D is no it doesn't, the specific beats the general. Not sometimes, or except when there are spells without M components. All the time, always, and forever... specific beats general.
Cause the SPELL specifically says it only needs a verbal and somatic and the third bullet point generally states that you can use a tool as a focus instead of a normal arcane focus. The third bullet point also says NOTHING about changing what the spells specifically require. It just says that you can use that tool as a focus not that it changes how you cast a spell. ONLY that you can use a tool as a focus INSTEAD of a normal focus.
I have never ever claimed that the third bullet point changes the V,S components of Magic Missile or adds the M component. None of that changes, the spell still only has V.S components and does not have the M component.
You still get to use the focus for the casting of a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. So you use the focus and cast the spell with only V,S components.
This means the focus is used in the casting of the spell but does not provide any M components as Magic Missile still does not have any.
So you might ask, then why go through all the trouble of using a focus in casting a spell when it doesn't provide any M components for that spell.
Having at least 5 levels as a Artificer/Alchemist and 2 levels as a Wizard/Order of Scribes allows you to cast Magic Missile using your Alchemist Supplies and change the damage type from force to fire by using the Awakened Spellbook feature and then add INT bonus to the damage roll by using the Alchemical Savant feature.
The final result is a damage roll that is 1d4+1+INT bonus.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I have never ever claimed that the third bullet point changes the V,S components of Magic Missile or adds the M component. None of that changes, the spell still only has V.S components and does not have the M component.
You still get to use the focus for the casting of a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. So you use the focus and cast the spell with only V,S components.
This means the focus is used in the casting of the spell but does not provide any M components as Magic Missile still does not have any.
No because the only way that you use a focus is to replace the spell components of a spell. Again, I'm happy to correct any other misunderstandings you might have, but I wouldn't like to have to correct this one again.
Yes, once again I'm not changing the requirements of the spell.
It still only needs V,S for it's components.
It does not gain any M components.
And I can still use the focus to cast the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I never claimed it made any sense, I actually used a variety of words to describe how odd and unique, weird and strange, it was.
Thank you for the free error check, but sense there are none and I continue to just use the rules as written.
I can still use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
As ChoirOfFire pointed out, the feat says that you use it "as a focus" which means to benefit, you must use it as a focus. You cannot use an item as a focus unless you are using it in the only method that the rules describe to use a focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
I never claimed it made any sense, I actually used a variety of words to describe how odd and unique, weird and strange, it was.
Thank you for the free error check, but sense there are none and I continue to just use the rules as written.
I can still use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
I don't know if this is intended to cause ire or not, but it hasn't.
You cannot use an item as a focus unless you are fulfilling the rules of using an item as a focus. So no, you still can't use any focus for magic missile unless that spell has had its components changed. This feat does not do that.
That general rule of using a focus to cast spells with a M component doesn't hold any water when matched up against the specific rule situation that arises from the third bullet point of the feat.
It allows me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them for casting the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
That general rule of using a focus to cast spells with a M component doesn't hold any water when matched up against the specific rule situation that arises from the third bullet point of the feat.
It allows me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them for casting the Magic Missile spell.
as a focus, which means replacing it's 'M' components. It does not have M components, therefore what you are saying is invalid.
It's not what I am saying but simply the rules as written in the third bullet point and therefore regardless of what I say the rules as written are valid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Yes, you have successfully corrected me into having to use the tools as a focus... which is what I've been doing all along.
Thanks for correcting me.
Now I can finally use the tools as a focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Yes, you have successfully corrected me into having to use the tools as a focus... which is what I've been doing all along.
Thanks for correcting me.
Now I can finally use the tools as a focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
No. I know this is tautological, but unless you are using the tools as a focus, you aren't actually using them as a focus. To use tools as a focus, you have to replace the material component of a spell.
The third bullet point of the feat allows me to use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability, so that breaks the general rule of only using a focus for casting a spell with a M component and allows me to cast any and all spells regardless of whether they have a M component.
This is only possible through the exact wording of the third bullet point and the rule of 'specific beats general.'
The end result being I can use the Alchemist's Supplies as a focus for the casting of the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The third bullet point of the feat allows me to use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability, so that breaks the general rule of only using a focus for casting a spell with a M component and allows me to cast any and all spells regardless of whether they have a M component.
This is only possible through the exact wording of the third bullet point and the rule of 'specific beats general.'
The end result being I can use the Alchemist's Supplies as a focus for the casting of the Magic Missile spell.
This is a repeat. So I guess I'll repeat. "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus..." "Can" indicates that there is the possibility that you also cannot. That may be due to choice, but in this case, it could also be due to other rules that prevent you. "As a spellcasting focus" means you still have to use the item as a spellcasting focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
Once again it is you who are stuck on trying to have the general rule of using a spellcasting focus somehow beat the specific rules laid out in the third bullet point of the feat.
It does not of course so we are left with the can, which could mean other things as you say, but without something more clear to define what can means, we are left with what it means jsut about every time it shows up in the rules. It offers a choice. Saying I can might mean you also cannot, still means you also can. This means it still remains a choice. And since it is a choice, I choose the can option.
The end result being I can use the Alchemist's Supplies as a focus for the casting of the Magic Missile spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
— A basic prayer.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I think too much emphasis is being placed on the “any spell” and should be on the “can use” of the third bullet point. You can use it on spells that use INT. But it isn’t required and follows the M components rule on using a focus. Meaning if no M component then you don’t/can’t use the artisan tool or any focus for casting.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The emphasis should be on the "as a spellcasting focus."
Whenever anything can be used, usually means it's a choice.
I can choose not to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell or I can choose to use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
And why does this specific third bullet point follow the general M component rule on using a focus? Why does everyone keep circling back to trying to force the general work to still work despite there being a clear example of a specific scenario of a focus being used for the casting of a spell with no M component?
The rule in D&D is no it doesn't, the specific beats the general. Not sometimes, or except when there are spells without M components. All the time, always, and forever... specific beats general.
Cause the SPELL specifically says it only needs a verbal and somatic and the third bullet point generally states that you can use a tool as a focus instead of a normal arcane focus. The third bullet point also says NOTHING about changing what the spells specifically require. It just says that you can use that tool as a focus not that it changes how you cast a spell. ONLY that you can use a tool as a focus INSTEAD of a normal focus.
Drakkon
I have never ever claimed that the third bullet point changes the V,S components of Magic Missile or adds the M component. None of that changes, the spell still only has V.S components and does not have the M component.
You still get to use the focus for the casting of a spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability. So you use the focus and cast the spell with only V,S components.
This means the focus is used in the casting of the spell but does not provide any M components as Magic Missile still does not have any.
So you might ask, then why go through all the trouble of using a focus in casting a spell when it doesn't provide any M components for that spell.
Having at least 5 levels as a Artificer/Alchemist and 2 levels as a Wizard/Order of Scribes allows you to cast Magic Missile using your Alchemist Supplies and change the damage type from force to fire by using the Awakened Spellbook feature and then add INT bonus to the damage roll by using the Alchemical Savant feature.
The final result is a damage roll that is 1d4+1+INT bonus.
No because the only way that you use a focus is to replace the spell components of a spell. Again, I'm happy to correct any other misunderstandings you might have, but I wouldn't like to have to correct this one again.
Drakkon
Yes, once again I'm not changing the requirements of the spell.
It still only needs V,S for it's components.
It does not gain any M components.
And I can still use the focus to cast the Magic Missile spell.
That is like saying you're using your shoe to cast the spell. It is nonsensical. Again. I'm happy to correct errors.
WolfOfTheBees
I never claimed it made any sense, I actually used a variety of words to describe how odd and unique, weird and strange, it was.
Thank you for the free error check, but sense there are none and I continue to just use the rules as written.
I can still use the focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
As ChoirOfFire pointed out, the feat says that you use it "as a focus" which means to benefit, you must use it as a focus. You cannot use an item as a focus unless you are using it in the only method that the rules describe to use a focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
I don't know if this is intended to cause ire or not, but it hasn't.
You cannot use an item as a focus unless you are fulfilling the rules of using an item as a focus. So no, you still can't use any focus for magic missile unless that spell has had its components changed. This feat does not do that.
That general rule of using a focus to cast spells with a M component doesn't hold any water when matched up against the specific rule situation that arises from the third bullet point of the feat.
It allows me to choose Alchemist's Supplies and then use them for casting the Magic Missile spell.
as a focus, which means replacing it's 'M' components. It does not have M components, therefore what you are saying is invalid.
It's not what I am saying but simply the rules as written in the third bullet point and therefore regardless of what I say the rules as written are valid.
The third bullet point still says you have to use the tools as a focus. So again, you have to still use the tools as a focus. Again, happy to correct.
Yes, you have successfully corrected me into having to use the tools as a focus... which is what I've been doing all along.
Thanks for correcting me.
Now I can finally use the tools as a focus for casting the Magic Missile spell.
No. I know this is tautological, but unless you are using the tools as a focus, you aren't actually using them as a focus. To use tools as a focus, you have to replace the material component of a spell.
The third bullet point of the feat allows me to use them as a focus for the casting of any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability, so that breaks the general rule of only using a focus for casting a spell with a M component and allows me to cast any and all spells regardless of whether they have a M component.
This is only possible through the exact wording of the third bullet point and the rule of 'specific beats general.'
The end result being I can use the Alchemist's Supplies as a focus for the casting of the Magic Missile spell.
This is a repeat. So I guess I'll repeat. "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus..." "Can" indicates that there is the possibility that you also cannot. That may be due to choice, but in this case, it could also be due to other rules that prevent you. "As a spellcasting focus" means you still have to use the item as a spellcasting focus: to replace the material components of a spell.
Once again it is you who are stuck on trying to have the general rule of using a spellcasting focus somehow beat the specific rules laid out in the third bullet point of the feat.
It does not of course so we are left with the can, which could mean other things as you say, but without something more clear to define what can means, we are left with what it means jsut about every time it shows up in the rules. It offers a choice. Saying I can might mean you also cannot, still means you also can. This means it still remains a choice. And since it is a choice, I choose the can option.
The end result being I can use the Alchemist's Supplies as a focus for the casting of the Magic Missile spell.