I've already read a few posts in regards to this subject, but they don't answer all my questions and i'm interested in your ideas.
Currently Rules as written i would say Blind Fighting does negate the negative of Sunlight sensitivity. Theres nothing in the rules that says it cannot be used in this manner but i do feel it's a bit of a rules hack to avoid the one negative racial trait.
However Blind Fighting only works within 10ft so what happens if i have a character who has the sunlight sensitivity and uses a blinfold to protect his vision and he;s attacked by archers? If they are beyond the 10ft range of Blind Fighting does the character have the negative of blinded therefore giving all the archers advantage on attack rolls?
Happy to discuss the general idea of using Blind Fighting for Sunlight Sensitivity, but i'm more interested to know the effect from beyond the 10ft.
I think it would work. Or I'd rule that it does anyway. The thing here seems to be, that the bright sunlight is too much for the drow/other underground race and it messes with their eyesight.
Having blindsight means you're not relying on sight in that range. You're able to sense the enemy near you without use of your eyes, thus sidestepping the sunlight issue within that limited range. Plus, by taking the blindfighting fighting style you're investing in that benefit and passing up other benefits, so I haven no issue with this flavor wise or mechanically.
I actually have this build - drow paladin with Blind Fighting. I took that fighting style so I wouldn't be a liability to the party in combat. I get to roll a straight d20 to attack in melee, but if I switch to ranged attacks in direct sunlight, I do so at disadvantage. (Note that it's also only direct sunlight. If there's partial shade for me and my target, I'm just like any other character.)
As for the archer scenario: Sunlight Sensitivity does not impose the blinded condition. It just imposes disadvantage on the character because the light hurts their eyes and makes it hard to see. They still have vision, however, so enemies do not get advantage on attack rolls against them because of this racial trait. RAW, there is no reason why enemy archers would get advantage on a drow or kobold with Sunlight Sensitivity.
Blindfighting gives you Blindsight within 10ft and allows you to perceive within 10ft. By blindfolding yourself, then within 10ft you can "see" perfectly. Beyond 10ft and you are blind.
In terms of the archers, that's an edge case that I've never seen specifically explained. However, my interpretation is this: The reason opponents get disadvantage on attacks against you is because you cannot see the attack coming, and therefore know which way to dodge. You are relying on chance to dodge in the right direction. An arrow flies too fast to see it 10ft away, judge where it's going, and react accordingly. Therefore, the archers are treated as unseen and get advantage. Worse, because you've blindfolded yourself, they are effectively invisible and therefore you have to guess where they are if you didn't hear where the attack came from - which if they're using a bow and arrow against you, is likely that they're far away enough that sound wouldn't carry well enough to give you a location. I'd let you know the rough direction, though.
RAW, I believe I'm correct in regards to advantage for archers. The rules condition it upon seeing you, not the attack or weapon:
When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it.
It's not that a creature with Sunlight Sensitivity cannot see the attack. It's that they cannot see it well. Once again, there is a difference between having disadvantage and having the blinded condition.
I honestly think that with the way 5th edition is going sunlight sensitivity for a PC is going away as the new Kobolds lose it in the new Mordenkainen book. That in the 2024 rules update I don't think any PC race will have it and all small races will have 30' movement, as well as more races allowing you to choose small or medium for your size like the Yuan-ti which are supposed to appear as human now have a choice of small or medium size.
I think the point that myself and Link are making is, it's not the Sunlight sensitivity that gives the archers advantage when shooting. It's the fact that the person fighting with Blind Fight has either closed thier eyes tightly or have blinfolded themselves so they gain the advantage of Blind Fighting within 10ft.
The benefit of Blight Fight is only over a 10ft range therefore anybody shooting at them from beyond 10ft would be shooting at a person classed as Blinded under the conditions.
I don't believe Blind Fighting would work unless the character made an attempt to block out the sunlight by some method of hiding the sun from their eyes.
It's not that a creature with Sunlight Sensitivity cannot see the attack. It's that they cannot see it well. Once again, there is a difference between having disadvantage and having the blinded condition.
No one said otherwise. The blindfold means that they cannot see the attack, because the blindfold has blinded them.
Blind Fighting style explicitly states that you can "effectively see anythingthat isn't behind total cover, even if you are blinded" (emphasis mine). The "even if" contingency implies that you benefit from this regardless of your vision status, as you are relying on your other senses to perceive the world 10ft around you. One does not have to blind oneself to hear arrows whizzing through the air or feel the heat from an incoming Fire Bolt spell.
Blind Fighting style explicitly states that you can "effectively see anythingthat isn't behind total cover, even if you are blinded" (emphasis mine). The "even if" contingency implies that you benefit from this regardless of your vision status, as you are relying on your other senses to perceive the world 10ft around you. One does not have to blind oneself to hear arrows whizzing through the air or feel the heat from an incoming Fire Bolt spell.
And that's relevant how? If the archers are unseen, they get advantage. Blindsight is out to 10ft. Archers are generally speaking further than that.Archers are therefore out of range of Blindsight (apart from niche cases). Blindsight doesn't help negate that advantage in this case.
Because the point Goraknor raised is that a character with SS would have to blind itself to benefit from blind fighting, which is manifestly not true based on how Blind Fighting is written.
And my original point was that SS does not impose the blinded condition - which is what would give enemy archers advantage. Nowhere does it say that a creature with SS is blind in sunlight. There is nothing in the text that says you cannot see in direct sunlight, just that you have disadvantage on attacks and perception checks. Just because you have to squint hard at the brightness doesn't mean enemies are unseen by you. And I think it's fair to assume that if the intention had been to make drow/kobolds blind in direct sunlight, SS would have included that word.
First of thanks to everybody that's responded and i'm pleased I have different opinions so I can look at both options and make a decision.
I'm looking at both statements for SS and Blind Fighting:
Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, the Drow/Kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Blind Fighting basically gives Blind Sight: "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius" which to me says to utilise Blind Fighting / Blind Sight your eyes must be closed to use your other senses to persieve people within 10ft.
The way it reads for me is you need to use your other senses to "See" enemies within 10ft. How can you percieve other enemies "Without relying on sight" as stated above with your eyes open??
I just don't think you can have it both ways. Your eyes are open you have normal sight, your eyes are closed you get your Blind Sight, therefore giving ranged attackers Advantage whilst the person is using Blind Fighting.
To my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong on this I would like to know if I'm mistaken, blindsight is essentially an extra sense. Not something mutually exclusive with eyesight. That's how I've always used it anyway. I don't take the 'blind' part to mean you're literally blind when using, but rather its a means of perceiving the world around without needing to see.
Blindsight
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense.
Being in the sunlight, this drow then would have disadvantage attacking foes beyond their blindsight radius, because of sunlight sensitivity. But, attacks against them DO NOT automatically have disadvantage unless they're hidden from the drow.
Nothing about blindsight seems to imply to me that you have to blind yourself to take advantage of it. You gain an extra sense, it doesn't replace normal sight, nor does it require you to blind yourself to use it so far as I can tell.
It lists creatures without eyes, yes, but that part is simply listing creatures that typically have blindsight, and it isn't an exhaustive list. Dragons also get blindsight and nothing in their stat blocks and descriptions I've noticed says they have to close their eyes to benefit from it.
Given that this is coming from a fighter fighting style for PCs, I feel like if there was an intention that you had to block out your normal sight to use it, this would have been stated. Especially with it saying 'even IF you are blinded' not 'WHEN you are blinded.' Requiring actual blindness, unless I'm missing something, seems like a house ruling rather than RAI or RAW.
In addition, in terms of game balance even flavor/logic and the wording of the rules aside, I think it makes no sense to require them to blind themselves. Because this is already a pretty niche fighting style compared to things you can use more regularly. Making you have to disable your character's normal sight in advance to use this situational close range fighting style just doesn't sit well with me in terms of game design either.
I get your point Nyr, but if eyes are to be left open how does it negate Sunlight Sensitivity?
So let's say you can keep your eyes open....if you can use your blind sight and feel the creatures around you, your eyes are still open therefore recieving the negative from SS and rolling at disadvantage on attack rolls, you still percieve creatures around you but the sun still hurts your eyes presumably causing minor pain and distraction.
Just because your can sense the creatures around you doesn't mean the sun doesn't still hurt your eyes.
I suppose in the end it just comes down to what your GM agrees too.
Maybe if you consider Blind Fighting more along the lines of perceptual awareness, where anything within 10' you perceive almost like echo location or some such. It adds awareness in a 10' radius around you, like you can feel the tremors or something. Thus when in direct sunlight, everything 10' or farther is blurry and indistinct. Once it gets within 10' you can clearly sense it's size, shape, movement and such. For a Monk, I would explain that you become intimately aware of the energy of anything within 10' of you.
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The point is that with SS, the light is (allegedly) actively interfering. When I was in Las Vegas, I steppes out of the darkness of the hotel and I to I to desert Sun. I can tell you now that even with other senses, they didn't amount to much because my brain was overloaded by the high signal coming from my eyes. The only way to fix it was to cover my eyes and then gradually open them so they could be accustomed to the brightness. Given that Drow eyes would permanently adapted to the dark, they wouldn't get accustomed. The only way to deal with it would be cover them up.
On the other hand, maybe that's not intended to be how it works. Personally, I'd want a SAC to clear it up. It's interesting that if you read the texts, Blindfighting, RAW, may not even be of help. It says that you get disadvantage pm attack rolls, but only qualifies perception checks to be reliant on sight, not attack rolls. Personally, I'd allow Blindfighting as a solution because it makes sense, but going by the letter of rules, it wouldn't. It's a part of condition.
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I get your point Nyr, but if eyes are to be left open how does it negate Sunlight Sensitivity?
So let's say you can keep your eyes open....if you can use your blind sight and feel the creatures around you, your eyes are still open therefore recieving the negative from SS and rolling at disadvantage on attack rolls, you still percieve creatures around you but the sun still hurts your eyes presumably causing minor pain and distraction.
Just because your can sense the creatures around you doesn't mean the sun doesn't still hurt your eyes.
I suppose in the end it just comes down to what your GM agrees too.
The way I see it, sunlight sensitivity the idea is because it's too bright for them to see properly, but blindsight is a sense separate from sight, and thus not affected by that.
If we wanted to go strict RAW though, SS just says that you have disadvantage on attack rolls, nothing about relying on sight, in that case even blinding yourself and using blindsight would still give you disadvantage.
I could see a DM ruling this a few different ways, but the way I see it even flavor aside, 10 feet of blindsight is such a situational thing to take for a fighting style I'm more inclined to err on it being useful in these niche cases of SS users in order to ensure it's still a good investment for that player.
Part of me wonders if the reason WotC appears to be getting rid of Sunlight Sensitivity as A Thing for playable races is because it leads to endless discussions about how to work around it.
Hi All,
I've already read a few posts in regards to this subject, but they don't answer all my questions and i'm interested in your ideas.
Currently Rules as written i would say Blind Fighting does negate the negative of Sunlight sensitivity. Theres nothing in the rules that says it cannot be used in this manner but i do feel it's a bit of a rules hack to avoid the one negative racial trait.
However Blind Fighting only works within 10ft so what happens if i have a character who has the sunlight sensitivity and uses a blinfold to protect his vision and he;s attacked by archers? If they are beyond the 10ft range of Blind Fighting does the character have the negative of blinded therefore giving all the archers advantage on attack rolls?
Happy to discuss the general idea of using Blind Fighting for Sunlight Sensitivity, but i'm more interested to know the effect from beyond the 10ft.
I think it would work. Or I'd rule that it does anyway. The thing here seems to be, that the bright sunlight is too much for the drow/other underground race and it messes with their eyesight.
Having blindsight means you're not relying on sight in that range. You're able to sense the enemy near you without use of your eyes, thus sidestepping the sunlight issue within that limited range. Plus, by taking the blindfighting fighting style you're investing in that benefit and passing up other benefits, so I haven no issue with this flavor wise or mechanically.
I actually have this build - drow paladin with Blind Fighting. I took that fighting style so I wouldn't be a liability to the party in combat. I get to roll a straight d20 to attack in melee, but if I switch to ranged attacks in direct sunlight, I do so at disadvantage. (Note that it's also only direct sunlight. If there's partial shade for me and my target, I'm just like any other character.)
As for the archer scenario: Sunlight Sensitivity does not impose the blinded condition. It just imposes disadvantage on the character because the light hurts their eyes and makes it hard to see. They still have vision, however, so enemies do not get advantage on attack rolls against them because of this racial trait. RAW, there is no reason why enemy archers would get advantage on a drow or kobold with Sunlight Sensitivity.
Blindfighting gives you Blindsight within 10ft and allows you to perceive within 10ft. By blindfolding yourself, then within 10ft you can "see" perfectly. Beyond 10ft and you are blind.
In terms of the archers, that's an edge case that I've never seen specifically explained. However, my interpretation is this: The reason opponents get disadvantage on attacks against you is because you cannot see the attack coming, and therefore know which way to dodge. You are relying on chance to dodge in the right direction. An arrow flies too fast to see it 10ft away, judge where it's going, and react accordingly. Therefore, the archers are treated as unseen and get advantage. Worse, because you've blindfolded yourself, they are effectively invisible and therefore you have to guess where they are if you didn't hear where the attack came from - which if they're using a bow and arrow against you, is likely that they're far away enough that sound wouldn't carry well enough to give you a location. I'd let you know the rough direction, though.
RAW, I believe I'm correct in regards to advantage for archers. The rules condition it upon seeing you, not the attack or weapon:
Emphasis mine.
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It's not that a creature with Sunlight Sensitivity cannot see the attack. It's that they cannot see it well. Once again, there is a difference between having disadvantage and having the blinded condition.
I honestly think that with the way 5th edition is going sunlight sensitivity for a PC is going away as the new Kobolds lose it in the new Mordenkainen book. That in the 2024 rules update I don't think any PC race will have it and all small races will have 30' movement, as well as more races allowing you to choose small or medium for your size like the Yuan-ti which are supposed to appear as human now have a choice of small or medium size.
I think the point that myself and Link are making is, it's not the Sunlight sensitivity that gives the archers advantage when shooting. It's the fact that the person fighting with Blind Fight has either closed thier eyes tightly or have blinfolded themselves so they gain the advantage of Blind Fighting within 10ft.
The benefit of Blight Fight is only over a 10ft range therefore anybody shooting at them from beyond 10ft would be shooting at a person classed as Blinded under the conditions.
I don't believe Blind Fighting would work unless the character made an attempt to block out the sunlight by some method of hiding the sun from their eyes.
No one said otherwise. The blindfold means that they cannot see the attack, because the blindfold has blinded them.
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Blind Fighting style explicitly states that you can "effectively see anything that isn't behind total cover, even if you are blinded" (emphasis mine). The "even if" contingency implies that you benefit from this regardless of your vision status, as you are relying on your other senses to perceive the world 10ft around you. One does not have to blind oneself to hear arrows whizzing through the air or feel the heat from an incoming Fire Bolt spell.
And that's relevant how? If the archers are unseen, they get advantage. Blindsight is out to 10ft. Archers are generally speaking further than that.Archers are therefore out of range of Blindsight (apart from niche cases). Blindsight doesn't help negate that advantage in this case.
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Because the point Goraknor raised is that a character with SS would have to blind itself to benefit from blind fighting, which is manifestly not true based on how Blind Fighting is written.
And my original point was that SS does not impose the blinded condition - which is what would give enemy archers advantage. Nowhere does it say that a creature with SS is blind in sunlight. There is nothing in the text that says you cannot see in direct sunlight, just that you have disadvantage on attacks and perception checks. Just because you have to squint hard at the brightness doesn't mean enemies are unseen by you. And I think it's fair to assume that if the intention had been to make drow/kobolds blind in direct sunlight, SS would have included that word.
First of thanks to everybody that's responded and i'm pleased I have different opinions so I can look at both options and make a decision.
I'm looking at both statements for SS and Blind Fighting:
Sunlight Sensitivity. While in sunlight, the Drow/Kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls, as well as on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Blind Fighting basically gives Blind Sight: "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius" which to me says to utilise Blind Fighting / Blind Sight your eyes must be closed to use your other senses to persieve people within 10ft.
The way it reads for me is you need to use your other senses to "See" enemies within 10ft. How can you percieve other enemies "Without relying on sight" as stated above with your eyes open??
I just don't think you can have it both ways. Your eyes are open you have normal sight, your eyes are closed you get your Blind Sight, therefore giving ranged attackers Advantage whilst the person is using Blind Fighting.
To my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong on this I would like to know if I'm mistaken, blindsight is essentially an extra sense. Not something mutually exclusive with eyesight. That's how I've always used it anyway. I don't take the 'blind' part to mean you're literally blind when using, but rather its a means of perceiving the world around without needing to see.
Blindsight
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense.
Being in the sunlight, this drow then would have disadvantage attacking foes beyond their blindsight radius, because of sunlight sensitivity. But, attacks against them DO NOT automatically have disadvantage unless they're hidden from the drow.
Nothing about blindsight seems to imply to me that you have to blind yourself to take advantage of it. You gain an extra sense, it doesn't replace normal sight, nor does it require you to blind yourself to use it so far as I can tell.
It lists creatures without eyes, yes, but that part is simply listing creatures that typically have blindsight, and it isn't an exhaustive list. Dragons also get blindsight and nothing in their stat blocks and descriptions I've noticed says they have to close their eyes to benefit from it.
Given that this is coming from a fighter fighting style for PCs, I feel like if there was an intention that you had to block out your normal sight to use it, this would have been stated. Especially with it saying 'even IF you are blinded' not 'WHEN you are blinded.' Requiring actual blindness, unless I'm missing something, seems like a house ruling rather than RAI or RAW.
In addition, in terms of game balance even flavor/logic and the wording of the rules aside, I think it makes no sense to require them to blind themselves. Because this is already a pretty niche fighting style compared to things you can use more regularly. Making you have to disable your character's normal sight in advance to use this situational close range fighting style just doesn't sit well with me in terms of game design either.
I get your point Nyr, but if eyes are to be left open how does it negate Sunlight Sensitivity?
So let's say you can keep your eyes open....if you can use your blind sight and feel the creatures around you, your eyes are still open therefore recieving the negative from SS and rolling at disadvantage on attack rolls, you still percieve creatures around you but the sun still hurts your eyes presumably causing minor pain and distraction.
Just because your can sense the creatures around you doesn't mean the sun doesn't still hurt your eyes.
I suppose in the end it just comes down to what your GM agrees too.
Maybe if you consider Blind Fighting more along the lines of perceptual awareness, where anything within 10' you perceive almost like echo location or some such. It adds awareness in a 10' radius around you, like you can feel the tremors or something. Thus when in direct sunlight, everything 10' or farther is blurry and indistinct. Once it gets within 10' you can clearly sense it's size, shape, movement and such. For a Monk, I would explain that you become intimately aware of the energy of anything within 10' of you.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The point is that with SS, the light is (allegedly) actively interfering. When I was in Las Vegas, I steppes out of the darkness of the hotel and I to I to desert Sun. I can tell you now that even with other senses, they didn't amount to much because my brain was overloaded by the high signal coming from my eyes. The only way to fix it was to cover my eyes and then gradually open them so they could be accustomed to the brightness. Given that Drow eyes would permanently adapted to the dark, they wouldn't get accustomed. The only way to deal with it would be cover them up.
On the other hand, maybe that's not intended to be how it works. Personally, I'd want a SAC to clear it up. It's interesting that if you read the texts, Blindfighting, RAW, may not even be of help. It says that you get disadvantage pm attack rolls, but only qualifies perception checks to be reliant on sight, not attack rolls. Personally, I'd allow Blindfighting as a solution because it makes sense, but going by the letter of rules, it wouldn't. It's a part of condition.
Want to play D&D? Try the following resources first (each section withing vertical bars is a clickable link to find the resource).
|The free Basic Rules.|
|Some free short adventures| and |some more here too.| |Here is a series of encounters, some of which link together form a mini-adventure|.
You've played a few games and now want to buy materials? |Here's my guide on what to buy next|.
The way I see it, sunlight sensitivity the idea is because it's too bright for them to see properly, but blindsight is a sense separate from sight, and thus not affected by that.
If we wanted to go strict RAW though, SS just says that you have disadvantage on attack rolls, nothing about relying on sight, in that case even blinding yourself and using blindsight would still give you disadvantage.
I could see a DM ruling this a few different ways, but the way I see it even flavor aside, 10 feet of blindsight is such a situational thing to take for a fighting style I'm more inclined to err on it being useful in these niche cases of SS users in order to ensure it's still a good investment for that player.
Part of me wonders if the reason WotC appears to be getting rid of Sunlight Sensitivity as A Thing for playable races is because it leads to endless discussions about how to work around it.