Aliens have abducted my DM and replaced him with an odd, less-fun version of himself. So, I need help convincing him he's wrong concerning bonus actions and reactions.
DM now believes that Bonus Actions and Reactions are one in the same and if you take a bonus action (ex: quickened eldritch blast), you then cannot take a reaction (ex: shield). This is absolutely game-breaking for myself and another PC in our party.
PHB 189-190 contains (I think) the only language on bonus actions and reactions. So... help?
EDIT:
Alright, I wasn't very clear on my meaning here, lol... let me give a specific example.
PC Barbarian Turn 1. Movement to get to bad guy 2. Bonus Action - Rage 3. Action - Attack
Enemy Turn 1. Attack PC Barbarian 2. Movement out of melee of PC Barb 3. PC Barb Reaction for Sentinel/Opportunity Attack <---- DM is saying that this is not allowed because the Barb used a Bonus Action to Rage
A Bonus Action is a bonus action that can only be taken on your own turn.
A Reaction is an additional action that can only be used in reaction to other occurrences as outlined in the text, and they have nothing to do with Bonus Actions.
Each character gets one action, one bonus action and one reaction between the beginning of their turn and the beginning of their next turn.
They are not the same thing and you can tell this by the fact that they have different names.
Are you sure DM isn't just getting the bonus action spellcasting rules wrong? That happens a lot.
For example, you actually can't cast quickened eldritch blast (or any BA spell) and counterspell their shield or shield their hellish rebuke (or cast any other reaction spell) in the same turn. But the part people get wrong is that you can cast reactions again after your turn ends.
If the DM is actually saying all bonus actions prevent all reactions (like a fighter attacking with 2 weapons not being able to make opportunity attacks), that is indeed a problem.
If the DM is actually saying all bonus actions prevent all reactions (like a fighter attacking with 2 weapons not being able to make opportunity attacks), that is indeed a problem.
Yes! Thank you for saying it this way. This is exactly what I meant to say. Another example is a barb with Sentinel - BA Rage on turn, R with Sentinel on enemies turn. DM is now saying that since the Barb used their BA to Rage, they cannot take their attack of opportunity.
DxJxC Your interpretation of BA spells is blatantly incorrect. There is no rule about BA spells and reaction spells. The only relevant rule says you cannot use your action to cast a levelled spell and also cast a levelled spell with a Bonus Action.
Nothing at all prevents you from casting a Bonus action spell and counterspell their shield. This has been directly confirmed by Sage Advice.
In addition, a Fighter/mage with action surge can cast two full levelled spells using their two actions.
DxJxC Your interpretation of BA spells is blatantly incorrect. There is no rule about BA spells and reaction spells. The only relevant rule says you cannot use your action to cast a levelled spell and also cast a levelled spell with a Bonus Action.
Nothing at all prevents you from casting a Bonus action spell and counterspell their shield. This has been directly confirmed by Sage Advice.
In addition, a Fighter/mage with action surge can cast two full levelled spells using their two actions.
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
So... Are reaction spells not spells or are they not cast? Which part am I blatantly incorrect about?
And from SAC:
Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn?
You sure can! Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell before it can stop fireball.
I assume this is the ruling to which you are referring. It never says you can use your reaction on the same turn you used a bonus action. A different SAC only rewords the PHB without further elaboration:
Is there a limit on the number of spells you can cast on your turn?
There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.
Also, I never said anything about action surge. What you said is correct as long as you haven't/won't cast a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Ask your DM why he insist on such ruling. Bonus action and reaction are two different things that dont impact one another, except during spellcasting. Its the only known exception, any other games elements can be taken without a problem, juste ask any polearm masters! 😉
DxJxC is correct here. Obviously many DMs may rule differently but it actually is a crucial balancing factor for spellcasters in some ways (no Misty Step + Counterspell, or Guiding Bolt + Spiritual Weapon).
DxJxC Your interpretation of BA spells is blatantly incorrect. There is no rule about BA spells and reaction spells. The only relevant rule says you cannot use your action to cast a levelled spell and also cast a levelled spell with a Bonus Action.
Nothing at all prevents you from casting a Bonus action spell and counterspell their shield. This has been directly confirmed by Sage Advice.
In addition, a Fighter/mage with action surge can cast two full levelled spells using their two actions.
He is 100% correct here. If you cast a BA leveled spell on your turn, you cannot cast any other level spell on this same turn now. Doesn't matter if it is a reaction cast, action cast or whatever. No other leveled spells of any kind of any cast time whatsoever until the turn ends.
If you are, say, an action surging fighter multiclass, you could BA misty step and now you have 2 whole actions on your turn you can't cast leveled spells with. Nor could you cast a reaction spell on your turn, either. Only when your turn ends and it is now a new turn can your ability to reaction spell spellcast be returned.
Your DM is probably confusing 5E with previous versions of the game. Back in the day, if you took what was then called a swift action (similar to today’s bonus action), you couldn’t take an immediate action (similar to today’s reaction) until after your turn came up again. Or it was something like that, anyway. By RAW, there is no justification for treating 5E bonus and immediate actions that way. And you are right, doing that harms classes that really depend on their bonus actions to be effective.
Sounds to me the dm is making homebrew rulings to fix his idea of what is "wrong with the game." 5e makes dm fiat very prevalent sometimes to the point of harm. I would explain how this ruling doesn't make the game more fun and you would rather play raw rules. If he still won't listen...... its probably time to find a new dm.
Aliens have abducted my DM and replaced him with an odd, less-fun version of himself. So, I need help convincing him he's wrong concerning bonus actions and reactions.
DM now believes that Bonus Actions and Reactions are one in the same and if you take a bonus action (ex: quickened eldritch blast), you then cannot take a reaction (ex: shield). This is absolutely game-breaking for myself and another PC in our party.
PHB 189-190 contains (I think) the only language on bonus actions and reactions. So... help?
EDIT:
Alright, I wasn't very clear on my meaning here, lol... let me give a specific example.
PC Barbarian Turn 1. Movement to get to bad guy 2. Bonus Action - Rage 3. Action - Attack
Enemy Turn 1. Attack PC Barbarian 2. Movement out of melee of PC Barb 3. PC Barb Reaction for Sentinel/Opportunity Attack <---- DM is saying that this is not allowed because the Barb used a Bonus Action to Rage
Short version: He's not following the rules as they were written or intended. There is absolutely NO direct link between Bonus Actions and Reactions, unless there's a spell/ability/whatever out there that specifically uses one and then says you can't use the other. Ask him to point to the part of the book that says if you use a Bonus Action, you cannot use your Reaction until your next turn. Hell, have him come here and justify his reading of the rules.
If you take a bonus action, you can also take a reaction.
You can take up to one each of action, bonus action, and reaction in one round of combat.
If you cast a spell as a bonus action, you can't also cast one as an action, and vice versa.
Only reactions can be taken when it is not your turn.
b8b7 is correct about this DM losing their mind.
Eh, mostly. If you cast a spell using your Bonus Action, you cannot cast a spell using your Reaction on your turn. You CAN use your reaction for something like Shield or Counterspell later in the round, just not on your actual turn. You can also cast a spell using your action on the same turn you cast a spell using your Bonus Action, but the Action spell can only be a cantrip.
I'm sorry, but I hate to see this argument over and over again.
The rules for casting a spell as a bonus action are some of the most hotly disputed in the online community. I think this might be the most important "rule" for Wizards to clarify when the next rewrite hits the streets.
The second is anything and everything about Counterspell. Many problems with counterspell overlap with the first question.
The third thing is for them to fix TWF so it is meaningful.
PHB p.202 - My heartburn with the interpretation shared by DxJxC is that a player could cast an Action Spell and a Reaction Spell during their turn but could not cast a Bonus Action Spell and a Reaction Spell during their turn. I'm not saying that DxJxC's interpretation do not match the written rules. I am saying that it doesn't make sense. I believe the Bonus Action spellcasting rule was written to prevent characters from casting a leveled spell with their Action and with their Bonus Action during a single turn. I don't think it was written to address Reaction Spells.
All they would need to do to fix this problem, in my interpretation, would be to change the sentence to read,
You can't cast another leveled spell as an Action on the same turn you cast a leveled spell as a Bonus Action.
Let me be clear, I think DxJxC's interpretation fits the written rule, that You can't cast a leveled Spell as a Bonus Action and cast a leveled spell as a Reaction on your turn. But you may cast a Leveled Spell as a Bonus Action on your turn and then cast a Leveled Spell as a Reaction on another's turn. My cognitive dissonance is that you may cast a Leveled Spell as an Action and Cast a Leveled Spell as a Reaction on your turn. The rules specifically mention that a Bonus Action Spell is especially swift. Wha???
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Hello there!
Aliens have abducted my DM and replaced him with an odd, less-fun version of himself. So, I need help convincing him he's wrong concerning bonus actions and reactions.
DM now believes that Bonus Actions and Reactions are one in the same and if you take a bonus action (ex: quickened eldritch blast), you then cannot take a reaction (ex: shield). This is absolutely game-breaking for myself and another PC in our party.
PHB 189-190 contains (I think) the only language on bonus actions and reactions. So... help?
EDIT:
Alright, I wasn't very clear on my meaning here, lol... let me give a specific example.
PC Barbarian Turn
1. Movement to get to bad guy
2. Bonus Action - Rage
3. Action - Attack
Enemy Turn
1. Attack PC Barbarian
2. Movement out of melee of PC Barb
3. PC Barb Reaction for Sentinel/Opportunity Attack <---- DM is saying that this is not allowed because the Barb used a Bonus Action to Rage
A Bonus Action is a bonus action that can only be taken on your own turn.
A Reaction is an additional action that can only be used in reaction to other occurrences as outlined in the text, and they have nothing to do with Bonus Actions.
Each character gets one action, one bonus action and one reaction between the beginning of their turn and the beginning of their next turn.
They are not the same thing and you can tell this by the fact that they have different names.
Are you sure DM isn't just getting the bonus action spellcasting rules wrong? That happens a lot.
For example, you actually can't cast quickened eldritch blast (or any BA spell) and counterspell their shield or shield their hellish rebuke (or cast any other reaction spell) in the same turn. But the part people get wrong is that you can cast reactions again after your turn ends.
If the DM is actually saying all bonus actions prevent all reactions (like a fighter attacking with 2 weapons not being able to make opportunity attacks), that is indeed a problem.
Yes! Thank you for saying it this way. This is exactly what I meant to say. Another example is a barb with Sentinel - BA Rage on turn, R with Sentinel on enemies turn. DM is now saying that since the Barb used their BA to Rage, they cannot take their attack of opportunity.
DxJxC Your interpretation of BA spells is blatantly incorrect. There is no rule about BA spells and reaction spells. The only relevant rule says you cannot use your action to cast a levelled spell and also cast a levelled spell with a Bonus Action.
Nothing at all prevents you from casting a Bonus action spell and counterspell their shield. This has been directly confirmed by Sage Advice.
In addition, a Fighter/mage with action surge can cast two full levelled spells using their two actions.
From the PHB:
So... Are reaction spells not spells or are they not cast? Which part am I blatantly incorrect about?
And from SAC:
I assume this is the ruling to which you are referring. It never says you can use your reaction on the same turn you used a bonus action. A different SAC only rewords the PHB without further elaboration:
Also, I never said anything about action surge. What you said is correct as long as you haven't/won't cast a bonus action spell in the same turn.
Ask your DM why he insist on such ruling. Bonus action and reaction are two different things that dont impact one another, except during spellcasting. Its the only known exception, any other games elements can be taken without a problem, juste ask any polearm masters! 😉
DxJxC is correct here. Obviously many DMs may rule differently but it actually is a crucial balancing factor for spellcasters in some ways (no Misty Step + Counterspell, or Guiding Bolt + Spiritual Weapon).
He is 100% correct here. If you cast a BA leveled spell on your turn, you cannot cast any other level spell on this same turn now. Doesn't matter if it is a reaction cast, action cast or whatever. No other leveled spells of any kind of any cast time whatsoever until the turn ends.
If you are, say, an action surging fighter multiclass, you could BA misty step and now you have 2 whole actions on your turn you can't cast leveled spells with. Nor could you cast a reaction spell on your turn, either. Only when your turn ends and it is now a new turn can your ability to reaction spell spellcast be returned.
BA cast = no other lvl1+ cast this turn.
I got quotes!
Your DM is probably confusing 5E with previous versions of the game. Back in the day, if you took what was then called a swift action (similar to today’s bonus action), you couldn’t take an immediate action (similar to today’s reaction) until after your turn came up again. Or it was something like that, anyway. By RAW, there is no justification for treating 5E bonus and immediate actions that way. And you are right, doing that harms classes that really depend on their bonus actions to be effective.
Sounds to me the dm is making homebrew rulings to fix his idea of what is "wrong with the game." 5e makes dm fiat very prevalent sometimes to the point of harm. I would explain how this ruling doesn't make the game more fun and you would rather play raw rules. If he still won't listen...... its probably time to find a new dm.
Short version: He's not following the rules as they were written or intended. There is absolutely NO direct link between Bonus Actions and Reactions, unless there's a spell/ability/whatever out there that specifically uses one and then says you can't use the other. Ask him to point to the part of the book that says if you use a Bonus Action, you cannot use your Reaction until your next turn. Hell, have him come here and justify his reading of the rules.
Five clear-cut facts:
i play dnd with weird people
i guess im also weird
idk
Eh, mostly. If you cast a spell using your Bonus Action, you cannot cast a spell using your Reaction on your turn. You CAN use your reaction for something like Shield or Counterspell later in the round, just not on your actual turn. You can also cast a spell using your action on the same turn you cast a spell using your Bonus Action, but the Action spell can only be a cantrip.
That's what I meant; I didn't word it well.
i play dnd with weird people
i guess im also weird
idk
I'm sorry, but I hate to see this argument over and over again.
The rules for casting a spell as a bonus action are some of the most hotly disputed in the online community. I think this might be the most important "rule" for Wizards to clarify when the next rewrite hits the streets.
The second is anything and everything about Counterspell. Many problems with counterspell overlap with the first question.
The third thing is for them to fix TWF so it is meaningful.
PHB p.202 - My heartburn with the interpretation shared by DxJxC is that a player could cast an Action Spell and a Reaction Spell during their turn but could not cast a Bonus Action Spell and a Reaction Spell during their turn. I'm not saying that DxJxC's interpretation do not match the written rules. I am saying that it doesn't make sense. I believe the Bonus Action spellcasting rule was written to prevent characters from casting a leveled spell with their Action and with their Bonus Action during a single turn. I don't think it was written to address Reaction Spells.
All they would need to do to fix this problem, in my interpretation, would be to change the sentence to read,
You can't cast another leveled spell as an Action on the same turn you cast a leveled spell as a Bonus Action.
Let me be clear, I think DxJxC's interpretation fits the written rule, that You can't cast a leveled Spell as a Bonus Action and cast a leveled spell as a Reaction on your turn. But you may cast a Leveled Spell as a Bonus Action on your turn and then cast a Leveled Spell as a Reaction on another's turn. My cognitive dissonance is that you may cast a Leveled Spell as an Action and Cast a Leveled Spell as a Reaction on your turn. The rules specifically mention that a Bonus Action Spell is especially swift. Wha???
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
So let's not go over that argument again in this thread, and stick to the OP's original question :-)