And no, I don't mean using multiple metamagics on the same spell.
So, here's the rules: You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted. Cool, that's very cut and dry- no stacking different metamagic.
BUT... is there anything saying you can't stack *the same* metamagic? You can only use one Metamagic option on a spell, but it doesn't say anything about how *many times* you can use the Metamagic option you chose on the same spell (except Twinned Spell, since by virtue of Twinning a Spell, you make it so you can't use Twinned again because the spell in question is now affecting more than one creature).
Example: I cast... I dunno, Dominate Beast. duration 1 minute. so I use Extended Spell 6 times to make it last for an hour (and 4 minutes, technically). Or Distant Spell to make the ultimate snipe shot with Fireball or something. I don't know.
Because there are no spells from the Sorc spell list (or Cleric spell list for Divine Souls) that are 12 hours in duration, so the "up to 24 hours" limit on Extended Spell makes little sense. If it was just meant to exclude 24 hour spells from it, it would say something like "a spell of duration 24 hours or greater cannot be applied to." or something.
Point is, do we have anything as written that prevents the application of multiple uses of the same Metamagic on a spell, so long as it is being applied and the sorc points are paid at the time of casting the spell?
(RAI, you're probably only supposed to use a metamagic the one time, I get that. Not the point of the question.)
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
As you say I doubt this is rules as intended, and in RAW I don't think it's allowed either. The wording isn't that you must use a different option, it's that "you can use only one Metamagic option", if you use the same Metamagic option twice that's still two options, it just happens that they're the same.
To use a silly example; if you have a carrot and a potato that's two vegetables, if you have two carrots, that's still two vegetables.
In terms of the potential for abuse there are only certain Metamagics that doubling up might work with:
Careful Spell: Give auto-save to more creatures, not exactly OP (since 99% of the time it's just your own party anyway).
Distant Spell: Keep doubling the distance; probably not that OP either as you're burning sorcery points for potentially silly distances, but you still need to be able to see a target. It's not a metamagic that I find comes up all that much personally.
Empowered Spell: Can already be used with a different option, however you must use the second result, so this can't be stacked with itself.
Extended Spell: Keep doubling the duration; possibly abusable but not massively so, as you'd need to burn quite a few sorcery points to get one of the more powerful, but short lived, spells to any kind of useful duration.
Heightened Spell: Could give disadvantage to additional targets of a multi-target spell; probably not OP as at 3 points a pop you'd burn through them fast.
Seeking Spell: Must use the new roll, so can't re-roll more than once.
Quickened Spell: You only get one bonus action in a turn.
Subtle Spell: Spell can't get more subtle.
Transmuted Spell: There's no benefit to using this more than once on a spell.
Twinned Spell: As you say, spell has become ineligible for a second stacking.
So yeah, it's really just Careful, Distant, Extended and Heightened that you could actually stack in any kind of a useful way; probably not OP enough that it wouldn't be okay to allow it, but I'm not convinced that it's RAW to be able to do this.
As you say I doubt this is rules as intended, and in RAW I don't think it's allowed either. The wording isn't that you must use a different option, it's that "you can use only one Metamagic option", if you use the same Metamagic option twice that's still two options, it just happens that they're the same.
To use a silly example; if you have a carrot and a potato that's two vegetables, if you have two carrots, that's still two vegetables.
In terms of the potential for abuse there are only certain Metamagics that doubling up might work with:
Careful Spell: Give auto-save to more creatures, not exactly OP (since 99% of the time it's just your own party anyway).
Distant Spell: Keep doubling the distance; probably not that OP either as you're burning sorcery points for potentially silly distances, but you still need to be able to see a target. It's not a metamagic that I find comes up all that much personally.
Empowered Spell: Can already be used with a different option, however you must use the second result, so this can't be stacked with itself.
Extended Spell: Keep doubling the duration; possibly abusable but not massively so, as you'd need to burn quite a few sorcery points to get one of the more powerful, but short lived, spells to any kind of useful duration.
Heightened Spell: Could give disadvantage to additional targets of a multi-target spell; probably not OP as at 3 points a pop you'd burn through them fast.
Seeking Spell: Must use the new roll, so can't re-roll more than once.
Quickened Spell: You only get one bonus action in a turn.
Subtle Spell: Spell can't get more subtle.
Transmuted Spell: There's no benefit to using this more than once on a spell.
Twinned Spell: As you say, spell has become ineligible for a second stacking.
So yeah, it's really just Careful, Distant, Extended and Heightened that you could actually stack in any kind of a useful way; probably not OP enough that it wouldn't be okay to allow it, but I'm not convinced that it's RAW to be able to do this.
Aha, someone else on another board pointed out the most glaringly obvious solution to the question that I frankly overlooked.
From the DMG: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. - DMG
Would you look at that, the DMG confirms you can't stack metamagic, even if it's the same one. Of course I would forget this.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
"From the DMG: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. - DMG"
"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap", Each Metamagic option is its own game feature, so this agrees that more than one Metamagic can't be used on a spell, with the specific Empowered being allowed over this general rule.The most potent one, explains that only the most potent affect has power. using one Metamagic Option does not overlap with other game features and does not repeat an effect on a target any more than the singular spell would already do, as stated in the spell description. For example, I can see invisible for an hour. In one encounter I see multiple dudes, multiple times, as they run around the area trying to stab PCs in the back, as per the spell. 1/2 hour later, I can still do it, as per the spell. I double it to use it for 2 hours, as per the Metamagic option rules. So, I can see more invisible dudes in the next hour. To double it twice more when ti is cast, now gives it a duration of 4 hours. No effects are stacked and there is no "overlap", no different game features were applied, I simply used the singular Metamagic on a single spell, as intended.
Careful, Distant, Extended and Heightened do not produce multiple effects for this rule to apply. Careful and Heightened affect multiple targets, but only once each, so they follow this rule. Distant and Extended only modify one spell, and it still has the same effect(s), only farther away and lasting longer, which the Metamagic Option already does. Neither has any affects which "overlap" with anything else and there is no different game feature being used. So using these Metamagic options in this way does not violate the above rule in the DMG, so it does not apply.
Specifically, Extend does not allow spells under 1 minute, so attack spells do not qualify (thus stacking effects), and for those who want to erroneously say you could double up a spell for a year with 20 SP, it also specifically says you can't double it past 24 hours, so this argument is ignorant, petty and flat out wrong.
And no, I don't mean using multiple metamagics on the same spell.
So, here's the rules: You can use only one Metamagic option on a spell when you cast it, unless otherwise noted. Cool, that's very cut and dry- no stacking different metamagic.
BUT... is there anything saying you can't stack *the same* metamagic? You can only use one Metamagic option on a spell, but it doesn't say anything about how *many times* you can use the Metamagic option you chose on the same spell (except Twinned Spell, since by virtue of Twinning a Spell, you make it so you can't use Twinned again because the spell in question is now affecting more than one creature).
Example: I cast... I dunno, Dominate Beast. duration 1 minute. so I use Extended Spell 6 times to make it last for an hour (and 4 minutes, technically). Or Distant Spell to make the ultimate snipe shot with Fireball or something. I don't know.
Because there are no spells from the Sorc spell list (or Cleric spell list for Divine Souls) that are 12 hours in duration, so the "up to 24 hours" limit on Extended Spell makes little sense. If it was just meant to exclude 24 hour spells from it, it would say something like "a spell of duration 24 hours or greater cannot be applied to." or something.
Point is, do we have anything as written that prevents the application of multiple uses of the same Metamagic on a spell, so long as it is being applied and the sorc points are paid at the time of casting the spell?
(RAI, you're probably only supposed to use a metamagic the one time, I get that. Not the point of the question.)
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
As you say I doubt this is rules as intended, and in RAW I don't think it's allowed either. The wording isn't that you must use a different option, it's that "you can use only one Metamagic option", if you use the same Metamagic option twice that's still two options, it just happens that they're the same.
To use a silly example; if you have a carrot and a potato that's two vegetables, if you have two carrots, that's still two vegetables.
In terms of the potential for abuse there are only certain Metamagics that doubling up might work with:
So yeah, it's really just Careful, Distant, Extended and Heightened that you could actually stack in any kind of a useful way; probably not OP enough that it wouldn't be okay to allow it, but I'm not convinced that it's RAW to be able to do this.
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Aha, someone else on another board pointed out the most glaringly obvious solution to the question that I frankly overlooked.
From the DMG: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. - DMG
Would you look at that, the DMG confirms you can't stack metamagic, even if it's the same one. Of course I would forget this.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap", Each Metamagic option is its own game feature, so this agrees that more than one Metamagic can't be used on a spell, with the specific Empowered being allowed over this general rule. The most potent one, explains that only the most potent affect has power. using one Metamagic Option does not overlap with other game features and does not repeat an effect on a target any more than the singular spell would already do, as stated in the spell description. For example, I can see invisible for an hour. In one encounter I see multiple dudes, multiple times, as they run around the area trying to stab PCs in the back, as per the spell. 1/2 hour later, I can still do it, as per the spell. I double it to use it for 2 hours, as per the Metamagic option rules. So, I can see more invisible dudes in the next hour. To double it twice more when ti is cast, now gives it a duration of 4 hours. No effects are stacked and there is no "overlap", no different game features were applied, I simply used the singular Metamagic on a single spell, as intended.
Careful, Distant, Extended and Heightened do not produce multiple effects for this rule to apply. Careful and Heightened affect multiple targets, but only once each, so they follow this rule. Distant and Extended only modify one spell, and it still has the same effect(s), only farther away and lasting longer, which the Metamagic Option already does. Neither has any affects which "overlap" with anything else and there is no different game feature being used. So using these Metamagic options in this way does not violate the above rule in the DMG, so it does not apply.
Specifically, Extend does not allow spells under 1 minute, so attack spells do not qualify (thus stacking effects), and for those who want to erroneously say you could double up a spell for a year with 20 SP, it also specifically says you can't double it past 24 hours, so this argument is ignorant, petty and flat out wrong.