Hi! I have a player on a huge campaign I'm running for a uni project that plays a necromancer. He always has at least 2 zombies with him and he works as a spell scroll maker (idk if there's a proper name for that), so he start insisting that the zombies can use the scrolls. Technically the rule says that if you can read the language it's written in and have the spell on your spellcasting list you can cast it. For this campaign we changed this rule a bit so everyone can use spell scrolls, you don't need to have the spell on your list but you still need to read it. With that said, the question is: do you need to read the scroll out loud for it to activate? If yes, zombies can't use it cause they can't speak, but there's no rule saying that you need to verbally activate the scroll (also they have an INT score of -4). So the question remains: can zombies use spell scrolls?
Edit: I'm not so sure about some of the rules of spell scrolls. Do they only contain the material components? That meaning that you still need to cast it using the normal verbal and somatic components of the spell?
Can zombies read spell scrolls? Short answer is no.
While any creature that can read a language is able to read an ordinary scroll, a spell scroll specifically requires the reader to be a caster, as they can only read it if the spell is on the spell list for their class (doesn't need to be prepared, just available to choose). So for example, a Wizard cannot read a scroll of cure wounds, but a Cleric can.
The only way a zombie could read a spell scroll is if the DM homebrewed the monster stat-block to add the spellcasting feature, assigning it a casting class whose spell list includes the scroll's spell.
If you've waived the spell list restriction then you're entirely in homebrew territory already, so only your DM can answer that.
I might add, that if you've homebrewed part of the spell scroll usage that allows *everyone* to use scrolls, you may want to consider what "being able to read the language" means at your table as well. If you've waived the portion of the rule stating that the spell need not be on your spellcasting list, the ability to read the mystical cipher might go with it. Verbal components don't require that the PC be able to speak a specific language, just that they be able to produce: "the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance".
The next one comes in the form of the Somatic components of some spells. Does a zombie, in your world, possess the dexterity and fluidity of motion to make: "gestures [that] might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures"? Does a zombie that's missing a few fingers still have the capability to cast a spell from a scroll? And to allow for the potential expansion of this to other areas, does this now mean that an Owl familiar can use spell scrolls without the spellcasting ability?
If you've waived the spellcasting list, but not the requirement to be a spellcaster, then flat out, zombies, familiars and commoners can't use spell scrolls.
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If you don't have a spellcasting ability -- perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature -- your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.
IMHO As scrolls are magic items, it follows that everyone can use them. Edit: Nope, my mistake
If you don't have a spellcasting ability -- perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature -- your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.
IMHO As scrolls are magic items, it follows that everyone can use them.
The rules are actually quite explicit that everyone can't. In the description for spell scrolls it says: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." What you quoted was a specific exception for creatures who have a way around that requirement, the primary one being Thief Rogues with the Level 13 ability which includes: "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."
My mistake Kotath. Harvikk is correct. It's in the definition of a scroll.
A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
The Spell Scroll provides the Material Component of any spell it holds, so while using a Spell Scroll you do not need a spellcasting focus or anything of the sort. However, the user of the spell scroll still needs to be able to read the scroll enough to follow its instructions for the somatic and vocal component of the spell. If a creature is unable to speak for one reason or another, they can only use scrolls for spells that have no Vocal component.
Also, if a creature attempts to cast a spell from a spell scroll that is a higher level than any spell slots they have, then they need to make a skill check using their spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how that works, exactly, with the homebrew detail of allowing all creatures to use spell scrolls, but assuming your player is a Wizard I think it's fair to make the ability check with INT. So even if the Zombies can somehow speak, or if the Necromancer goes out of their way to prepare scrolls for them that do not have verbal components, the Zombie would still need to make an INT Ability Check where the DC equals 10+The Spell's Level.
One of the issues with making fairly significant home brew rules is they need to be very clearly defined.
The actual rule says "A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." So a scroll is not written in a language it is in a mystical cipher so there is no restriction to "read the language it is written in" if a human wizard (who doesn't speak elvish) finds a scroll (of a wizard spell) written by an elf they are able to use the scroll.
For this campaign you have decided "everyone" can use spell scrolls, but it appears you and the player of the necromancer have different ideas of who "everyone" is. Do you need the ability to read (a zombie with intelligence of 3 would almost certainly not be able to read), does it need to be able to understand a language? A dog is able to understand simple commands so would a dog be able to use a scroll?
It also appears from what you have said (unless I am reading too much into the word "insist") is that the player of the necromancer has forgotten that the DM takes on the role of the referee. If a player believes the DM is not applying a rule correctly they can raise it with the DM but the DMs decision is final.
Edit: I'm not so sure about some of the rules of spell scrolls. Do they only contain the material components? That meaning that you still need to cast it using the normal verbal and somatic components of the spell?
Yes, the Spell Scroll itself only fulfills the Material Component of the spell (even spells with a material component with a GP cost, because the component is used when crafting the scroll). It is up to the creature using the spell scroll to perform the Vocal and Somatic components themselves.
For those homebrewing spell scrolls to be usable by everyone. If zombies are to use spell scrolls (even if they were a spell caster in life) then they would likely need some homebrewing as well since the description in the Monster Manual states this: "Zombies take the most direct route to any foe, unable to comprehend obstacles, tactics, or dangerous terrain. A zombie might stumble into a fast-flowing river to reach foes on a far shore, clawing at the surface as it is battered against rocks and destroyed. To reach a foe below it, a zombie might step out of an open window. Zombies stumble through roaring infernos, into pools of acid, and across fields littered with caltrops without hesitation."
I think that was titled "mindless soldier" or something. Effectively, zombies are dumber than most animals as they lack even any concept of self preservation. They're also described as being capable of following simple instructions but I think it's a DM's call on if even reading a spell scroll is simple enough. IMHO they'd just look at the scroll and say "braiiinz" a lot.
How does the Zombie know who to cast the spell on?
Telling it to read the scroll and telling it to cast it on a specific victim are two very different things.
Its like saying "drive the car" vs "drive the car to New Mexico." If the z had enough consciousness the drive to Mexico he would obviously try for independence. IE cast that fireball on his controller.
For those homebrewing spell scrolls to be usable by everyone. If zombies are to use spell scrolls (even if they were a spell caster in life) then they would likely need some homebrewing as well since the description in the Monster Manual states this: "Zombies take the most direct route to any foe, unable to comprehend obstacles, tactics, or dangerous terrain. A zombie might stumble into a fast-flowing river to reach foes on a far shore, clawing at the surface as it is battered against rocks and destroyed. To reach a foe below it, a zombie might step out of an open window. Zombies stumble through roaring infernos, into pools of acid, and across fields littered with caltrops without hesitation."
I think that was titled "mindless soldier" or something. Effectively, zombies are dumber than most animals as they lack even any concept of self preservation. They're also described as being capable of following simple instructions but I think it's a DM's call on if even reading a spell scroll is simple enough. IMHO they'd just look at the scroll and say "braiiinz" a lot.
Technically they can still read. They know the languages they knew in life, but cannot speak them. It gives no indication that they cannot read them.
Zombies have an Intelligence of 3. That's the same Intelligence score as a Mastiff. I don't think the assumption that Zombies can't read is all that unreasonable.
Well it “understands” the languages it knew in life but can’t speak. The rules usually say what they can do, not what they can’t, unless it’s an exception, like speaking in this example. Since it doesn’t mention specifically that they can read, then it’s probably a good indication that they cannot.
A dog understands verbal commands to sit, or stay. Zombies with that low an INT would be the same, in my opinion.
Edit: “A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought and imagination.” is also in their description so I think that lends something to the “can’t read” part. I think they only added the part about understanding the languages they knew is so that people using Animate Dead or other magic to create the zombie have some means of ordering them around. Otherwise it would be a useless spell if they would only “stand there and rot”
I had it in my head that I'd read something about nothing with an intelligence under 4 being capable of reading or understanding complex language, but must have been some comment I read at some point.
As Kotath points out, there are no RAW preventing zombies from reading.
Much the same line about knowing the languages it had in life exists for vampires, with no mention of reading or writing, so not mentioning the ability to read and write a language doesn't seem to mean the monster is incapable of it in the monster's manual. The line about not retaining vestiges of it's former selves certainly lends credibility to a lack of spellcasting though, but it doesn't exclude the zombie from reading.
Even if it could read the spell scroll how would it know who to cast the spell on?
For all you know the thing could open the spell scroll turn and start reading it to the person who told it to read the scroll.
Could you imagine 7 zombies with Fireball scrolls all in a nice line. They then cast the spells off in random directions hitting everything from the enemy to their "master" to bush just a foot in front of them or the tree next to the rest of the party.
Great idea.
No zombies can only "understand" the language they knew in life so someone has a chance to control them. And who is to say that language was common?
I would have said/ruled they were controlled through the link the spell established with them, expressed buy the castor needing to verbally detect them. Understanding his language would come through the spell. Sort of like speaking with animals. If the caster can not speak out loud then he can not control them.
In the days long past, late 70's zombies in most games only understood their creator and were often based on an earth based religion. In that religion the zombie's mouth was sown shut as if it ate food and or drank water (I think there was salt in there somewhere) it realized it was dead and deaminated. So they had their mouths sown shut so PC's could not throw food at them and their reattached spirit ate the food (as they wanted to be free of the earth plane) and fell into a heap. But in the 80's the always hungry zombie came along and eating not longer was an issue so the PC's had to deal with them in old fashion ways.
You can see if you use zombies as in early D&D and other games their mouths were sown shut thus preventing them from reading. In later cases being hungry all the time would also prevent them from reading as their hunger drive would prevent the process of speech.
Note: This is something good to define in your game setting before it comes and issue later.
Some thoughts on why it would not work, rotten vocal cords, zombie not intelligent enough (often says zombie can only do basic tasks when asked by their creator), do not have the necessary spark of magic to use some magic items, is defined that way in the setting.
Why it might work: I have seen a lot of 1/2 human 1/2 undead/daemon/devil/other combo and the human half makes up for the other 1/2 when doing things, creatures and or races are defined to be able to do things.
Also in general how does a specific ruling affect power balance in the game. In general I would not allow it as to me it throws off the balance of the game.
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Hi!
I have a player on a huge campaign I'm running for a uni project that plays a necromancer. He always has at least 2 zombies with him and he works as a spell scroll maker (idk if there's a proper name for that), so he start insisting that the zombies can use the scrolls. Technically the rule says that if you can read the language it's written in and have the spell on your spellcasting list you can cast it. For this campaign we changed this rule a bit so everyone can use spell scrolls, you don't need to have the spell on your list but you still need to read it. With that said, the question is: do you need to read the scroll out loud for it to activate? If yes, zombies can't use it cause they can't speak, but there's no rule saying that you need to verbally activate the scroll (also they have an INT score of -4). So the question remains: can zombies use spell scrolls?
Edit: I'm not so sure about some of the rules of spell scrolls. Do they only contain the material components? That meaning that you still need to cast it using the normal verbal and somatic components of the spell?
Can zombies read spell scrolls? Short answer is no.
While any creature that can read a language is able to read an ordinary scroll, a spell scroll specifically requires the reader to be a caster, as they can only read it if the spell is on the spell list for their class (doesn't need to be prepared, just available to choose). So for example, a Wizard cannot read a scroll of cure wounds, but a Cleric can.
The only way a zombie could read a spell scroll is if the DM homebrewed the monster stat-block to add the spellcasting feature, assigning it a casting class whose spell list includes the scroll's spell.
If you've waived the spell list restriction then you're entirely in homebrew territory already, so only your DM can answer that.
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I might add, that if you've homebrewed part of the spell scroll usage that allows *everyone* to use scrolls, you may want to consider what "being able to read the language" means at your table as well. If you've waived the portion of the rule stating that the spell need not be on your spellcasting list, the ability to read the mystical cipher might go with it. Verbal components don't require that the PC be able to speak a specific language, just that they be able to produce: "the particular combination of sounds, with specific pitch and resonance".
The next one comes in the form of the Somatic components of some spells. Does a zombie, in your world, possess the dexterity and fluidity of motion to make: "gestures [that] might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures"? Does a zombie that's missing a few fingers still have the capability to cast a spell from a scroll? And to allow for the potential expansion of this to other areas, does this now mean that an Owl familiar can use spell scrolls without the spellcasting ability?
If you've waived the spellcasting list, but not the requirement to be a spellcaster, then flat out, zombies, familiars and commoners can't use spell scrolls.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
From the basic rules:
IMHO As scrolls are magic items, it follows that everyone can use them.
Edit: Nope, my mistake"Semper in faecibus sumus, solo profundum variat"
playing since 1986
The rules are actually quite explicit that everyone can't. In the description for spell scrolls it says: "If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." What you quoted was a specific exception for creatures who have a way around that requirement, the primary one being Thief Rogues with the Level 13 ability which includes: "You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items."
My mistake Kotath. Harvikk is correct. It's in the definition of a scroll.
"Semper in faecibus sumus, solo profundum variat"
playing since 1986
The Spell Scroll provides the Material Component of any spell it holds, so while using a Spell Scroll you do not need a spellcasting focus or anything of the sort. However, the user of the spell scroll still needs to be able to read the scroll enough to follow its instructions for the somatic and vocal component of the spell. If a creature is unable to speak for one reason or another, they can only use scrolls for spells that have no Vocal component.
Also, if a creature attempts to cast a spell from a spell scroll that is a higher level than any spell slots they have, then they need to make a skill check using their spellcasting ability. I'm not sure how that works, exactly, with the homebrew detail of allowing all creatures to use spell scrolls, but assuming your player is a Wizard I think it's fair to make the ability check with INT. So even if the Zombies can somehow speak, or if the Necromancer goes out of their way to prepare scrolls for them that do not have verbal components, the Zombie would still need to make an INT Ability Check where the DC equals 10+The Spell's Level.
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One of the issues with making fairly significant home brew rules is they need to be very clearly defined.
The actual rule says "A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible." So a scroll is not written in a language it is in a mystical cipher so there is no restriction to "read the language it is written in" if a human wizard (who doesn't speak elvish) finds a scroll (of a wizard spell) written by an elf they are able to use the scroll.
For this campaign you have decided "everyone" can use spell scrolls, but it appears you and the player of the necromancer have different ideas of who "everyone" is. Do you need the ability to read (a zombie with intelligence of 3 would almost certainly not be able to read), does it need to be able to understand a language? A dog is able to understand simple commands so would a dog be able to use a scroll?
It also appears from what you have said (unless I am reading too much into the word "insist") is that the player of the necromancer has forgotten that the DM takes on the role of the referee. If a player believes the DM is not applying a rule correctly they can raise it with the DM but the DMs decision is final.
Yes, the Spell Scroll itself only fulfills the Material Component of the spell (even spells with a material component with a GP cost, because the component is used when crafting the scroll). It is up to the creature using the spell scroll to perform the Vocal and Somatic components themselves.
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For those homebrewing spell scrolls to be usable by everyone. If zombies are to use spell scrolls (even if they were a spell caster in life) then they would likely need some homebrewing as well since the description in the Monster Manual states this: "Zombies take the most direct route to any foe, unable to comprehend obstacles, tactics, or dangerous terrain. A zombie might stumble into a fast-flowing river to reach foes on a far shore, clawing at the surface as it is battered against rocks and destroyed. To reach a foe below it, a zombie might step out of an open window. Zombies stumble through roaring infernos, into pools of acid, and across fields littered with caltrops without hesitation."
I think that was titled "mindless soldier" or something. Effectively, zombies are dumber than most animals as they lack even any concept of self preservation. They're also described as being capable of following simple instructions but I think it's a DM's call on if even reading a spell scroll is simple enough. IMHO they'd just look at the scroll and say "braiiinz" a lot.
How does the Zombie know who to cast the spell on?
Telling it to read the scroll and telling it to cast it on a specific victim are two very different things.
Its like saying "drive the car" vs "drive the car to New Mexico." If the z had enough consciousness the drive to Mexico he would obviously try for independence. IE cast that fireball on his controller.
Zombies have an Intelligence of 3. That's the same Intelligence score as a Mastiff. I don't think the assumption that Zombies can't read is all that unreasonable.
They still have the lowest possible intelligence. If they were alive they would NOT be able to read.
Reading and writing are different than speaking.
You can speak a language LONG before you know how to read and write in it.
Well it “understands” the languages it knew in life but can’t speak. The rules usually say what they can do, not what they can’t, unless it’s an exception, like speaking in this example. Since it doesn’t mention specifically that they can read, then it’s probably a good indication that they cannot.
A dog understands verbal commands to sit, or stay. Zombies with that low an INT would be the same, in my opinion.
Edit: “A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought and imagination.” is also in their description so I think that lends something to the “can’t read” part. I think they only added the part about understanding the languages they knew is so that people using Animate Dead or other magic to create the zombie have some means of ordering them around. Otherwise it would be a useless spell if they would only “stand there and rot”
But you can play it however you like.
Kotath is correct.
I had it in my head that I'd read something about nothing with an intelligence under 4 being capable of reading or understanding complex language, but must have been some comment I read at some point.
As Kotath points out, there are no RAW preventing zombies from reading.
Much the same line about knowing the languages it had in life exists for vampires, with no mention of reading or writing, so not mentioning the ability to read and write a language doesn't seem to mean the monster is incapable of it in the monster's manual. The line about not retaining vestiges of it's former selves certainly lends credibility to a lack of spellcasting though, but it doesn't exclude the zombie from reading.
DM's call.
Even if it could read the spell scroll how would it know who to cast the spell on?
For all you know the thing could open the spell scroll turn and start reading it to the person who told it to read the scroll.
Could you imagine 7 zombies with Fireball scrolls all in a nice line. They then cast the spells off in random directions hitting everything from the enemy to their "master" to bush just a foot in front of them or the tree next to the rest of the party.
Great idea.
No zombies can only "understand" the language they knew in life so someone has a chance to control them. And who is to say that language was common?
I would have said/ruled they were controlled through the link the spell established with them, expressed buy the castor needing to verbally detect them. Understanding his language would come through the spell. Sort of like speaking with animals. If the caster can not speak out loud then he can not control them.
In the days long past, late 70's zombies in most games only understood their creator and were often based on an earth based religion. In that religion the zombie's mouth was sown shut as if it ate food and or drank water (I think there was salt in there somewhere) it realized it was dead and deaminated. So they had their mouths sown shut so PC's could not throw food at them and their reattached spirit ate the food (as they wanted to be free of the earth plane) and fell into a heap. But in the 80's the always hungry zombie came along and eating not longer was an issue so the PC's had to deal with them in old fashion ways.
You can see if you use zombies as in early D&D and other games their mouths were sown shut thus preventing them from reading. In later cases being hungry all the time would also prevent them from reading as their hunger drive would prevent the process of speech.
Note: This is something good to define in your game setting before it comes and issue later.
Some thoughts on why it would not work, rotten vocal cords, zombie not intelligent enough (often says zombie can only do basic tasks when asked by their creator), do not have the necessary spark of magic to use some magic items, is defined that way in the setting.
Why it might work: I have seen a lot of 1/2 human 1/2 undead/daemon/devil/other combo and the human half makes up for the other 1/2 when doing things, creatures and or races are defined to be able to do things.
Also in general how does a specific ruling affect power balance in the game. In general I would not allow it as to me it throws off the balance of the game.
Have Fun