If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
So, reading through the Comments, (ignoring the talk about using spells and what counts as a attack) my understanding of what a fighter could do at 5th level is: Action: 2 Attacks, Bonus Action: Attack with off hand, Haste: 1 Attack, Action Surge: 2 Attacks. For a total of 6 attacks, with Attacks in this context being A one handed Melee Weapon, such as a Long-Sword or Rapier, or 5 if it's a 2 handed weapon. Thanks, and sorry for accdentaly opening the apparent can of worms that is "what counts as a attack for the haste spell".
The only limitation haste applies is to the specific action it gives. You can do anything you'd normally be capable of with your other actions, including the one from action surge. This includes using extra attack.
Haste's action is limited to what it says on the tin: particularly in this case a single attack. Yes, this gives you 5 attacks at level 5. Possibly more if you have something useful to do with a bonus action.
If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
Haste is one of several spells guaranteed to spark a debate on this forum because it has grammar in its RAW which can be interpreted multiple ways and WOTC has never clarified. Action Surge does get Extra Attack, for certain.
Editing out the intervening words due to them being irrelevant for your purposes, Haste gives you an extra action that "can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) [...] action". An attack (one weapon attack only) action is not defined elsewhere in the rules, and English grammar is context-sensitive as to what this means; because Haste is a spell, we have no idea what this means. It could mean either of the following, and anyone telling you it definitely means either one of them is ignoring the RAW - you have to ask your DM; in order to avoid getting into weeds that don't matter in terms of the rules, because all we're discussing is grammar, I'm going to swap the nouns to a fruit merchant with a sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
The basket must contain 1 citrus fruit and nothing else.
This means your Haste action must always be 1 weapon attack, period.
The basket must contain at least 1 citrus fruit and at most 1 citrus fruit, but it can include as much non-citrus fruit as you want.
This means your Haste attack action must contain exactly 1 weapon attack but, in general, may contain as many spell attacks (or non-attacks) as you like.
Magic Stone is one way of multiple to make this come up.
The attack action can only be a weapon attack. This applies to your normal action and to the hatred action. Spell attacks use the cast a spell action and also cannot be done with the hasted action. Magic stone is a ranged spell attack so it does not work here. I think that even a fighter with 3 attacks can only throw one magic stone. In not certain in that though so I'll read it through more carefully. The stone could count as a weapon.
If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
Haste is one of several spells guaranteed to spark a debate on this forum because it has grammar in its RAW which can be interpreted multiple ways and WOTC has never clarified. Action Surge does get Extra Attack, for certain.
Editing out the intervening words due to them being irrelevant for your purposes, Haste gives you an extra action that "can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) [...] action". An attack (one weapon attack only) action is not defined elsewhere in the rules, and English grammar is context-sensitive as to what this means; because Haste is a spell, we have no idea what this means. It could mean either of the following, and anyone telling you it definitely means either one of them is ignoring the RAW - you have to ask your DM; in order to avoid getting into weeds that don't matter in terms of the rules, because all we're discussing is grammar, I'm going to swap the nouns to a fruit merchant with a sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
The basket must contain 1 citrus fruit and nothing else.
This means your Haste action must always be 1 weapon attack, period.
The basket must contain at least 1 citrus fruit and at most 1 citrus fruit, but it can include as much non-citrus fruit as you want.
This means your Haste attack action must contain exactly 1 weapon attack but, in general, may contain as many spell attacks (or non-attacks) as you like.
Magic Stone is one way of multiple to make this come up.
I don't know if I understand you. English is not my native language. However, do you mean that this sentence "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)" would allow you to cast a spell attack depending on the context?
It seems pretty clear to me that you can only do one (and only one) weapon attack. You can't do any other type of attack than weapon attack, and it can only be one, right?
The attack action can only be a weapon attack. This applies to your normal action and to the hatred action. Spell attacks use the cast a spell action and also cannot be done with the hasted action. Magic stone is a ranged spell attack so it does not work here. I think that even a fighter with 3 attacks can only throw one magic stone. In not certain in that though so I'll read it through more carefully. The stone could count as a weapon.
This isn't correct though. Casting the spell to empower the stones take the Cast a Spell action but attacking with the stones are still just attacks. Yes they are ranged spell attacks but that can be done with the regular Attack Action. So a Fighter taking a normal Attack Action could throw all three stones with the same action if he is high enough level to get to do three attacks.
Doing it with the Haste attack is a bit more unclear. Both depending on the question quindraco posed above and depending on if the stones would count as weapons by themselves. IMO the RAI would be that it only allows for a singular attack and I'm not convinced they do count as weapons (even though I probably would allow it myself). However using a Sling to throw it should mean you qualify as using a weapon.
If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
Haste is one of several spells guaranteed to spark a debate on this forum because it has grammar in its RAW which can be interpreted multiple ways and WOTC has never clarified. Action Surge does get Extra Attack, for certain.
Editing out the intervening words due to them being irrelevant for your purposes, Haste gives you an extra action that "can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) [...] action". An attack (one weapon attack only) action is not defined elsewhere in the rules, and English grammar is context-sensitive as to what this means; because Haste is a spell, we have no idea what this means. It could mean either of the following, and anyone telling you it definitely means either one of them is ignoring the RAW - you have to ask your DM; in order to avoid getting into weeds that don't matter in terms of the rules, because all we're discussing is grammar, I'm going to swap the nouns to a fruit merchant with a sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
The basket must contain 1 citrus fruit and nothing else.
This means your Haste action must always be 1 weapon attack, period.
The basket must contain at least 1 citrus fruit and at most 1 citrus fruit, but it can include as much non-citrus fruit as you want.
This means your Haste attack action must contain exactly 1 weapon attack but, in general, may contain as many spell attacks (or non-attacks) as you like.
Magic Stone is one way of multiple to make this come up.
I don't know if I understand you. English is not my native language. However, do you mean that this sentence "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)" would allow you to cast a spell attack depending on the context?
Yes, that is correct (provided the spell attack is not a weapon attack). I can provide you additional examples of how the grammar works, if you like. Did you understand my example about the fruit merchant?
It seems pretty clear to me that you can only do one (and only one) weapon attack. You can't do any other type of attack than weapon attack, and it can only be one, right?
That is not how English grammar works. English grammar is context sensitive for a sentence with this structure. Here are more examples:
Works the way you think it does: "Animal policy: 1 service animal only" as a sign posted on a building is universally understood to mean that you can take one service animal in, but you can't take in a service animal and a non-service animal.
Doesn't work the way you think it does: "Drink policy: 1 alcoholic beverage only" as a sign posted on a bar is universally understood to mean that you can drink up to 1 alcoholic beverage and as many non-alcoholic beverages as you like.
I can keep generating examples, as the English language is rife with instances of both. It's simply not the case that the phrase has a context-free, unambiguous meaning. In fact, if a fruit merchant actually put up the sign I talked about earlier, I would expect many customers to get confused and ask the merchant what they meant, due to the lack of clarity.
All that is to say that the context around "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action" is not so ambiguous as some people seem to think. The rule is telling you exactly what limited activities you can spend the action on, and it seems obvious from context how it should be interpreted. Some argue differently, but they're ignoring context in order to make a bad argument.
If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
I'd have to disagree with your analogy since it makes assumptions about fruit - the number and type of fruit - which are not valid for the English statement of the haste spell.
"it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
How about this one: sign up advertising fruit - you can take one type of fruit, Oranges (one orange only), strawberries, grapes or apples
Would you interpret this to mean you can take some grapes or apples if you decide to take Oranges which are limited to only one Orange?
The Attack action in 5e is clearly defined (it isn't fruit - it is a specific type of fruit) "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks." which allows ONLY a melee or ranged attack.
The Extra Attack feature: "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn" - the Extra Attack feature allows a creature to take a second (or third) attack when they take the Attack action on their turn.
A person with this feature could normally take more than one orange whenever they pick up oranges but if they have access to the special fruit sale and pick oranges then they are limited to taking only ONE extra orange ... or one attack as the case may be ... as part of the sale or the spell.
The Attack action provided by haste provides ONLY an attack action (not cast a spell or any other action) that is limited to ONE weapon attack only. You are welcome to try arguing for some other reading but the Attack action is well defined in 5e, so the qualifier allowing ONLY one weapon attack placed on the Attack action provided by haste is clearly a limitation on the Attack action.
If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
Haste is one of several spells guaranteed to spark a debate on this forum because it has grammar in its RAW which can be interpreted multiple ways and WOTC has never clarified. Action Surge does get Extra Attack, for certain.
Editing out the intervening words due to them being irrelevant for your purposes, Haste gives you an extra action that "can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) [...] action". An attack (one weapon attack only) action is not defined elsewhere in the rules, and English grammar is context-sensitive as to what this means; because Haste is a spell, we have no idea what this means. It could mean either of the following, and anyone telling you it definitely means either one of them is ignoring the RAW - you have to ask your DM; in order to avoid getting into weeds that don't matter in terms of the rules, because all we're discussing is grammar, I'm going to swap the nouns to a fruit merchant with a sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
The basket must contain 1 citrus fruit and nothing else.
This means your Haste action must always be 1 weapon attack, period.
The basket must contain at least 1 citrus fruit and at most 1 citrus fruit, but it can include as much non-citrus fruit as you want.
This means your Haste attack action must contain exactly 1 weapon attack but, in general, may contain as many spell attacks (or non-attacks) as you like.
Magic Stone is one way of multiple to make this come up.
It isn't many people who get confused by what "Attack (one weapon attack only)" action means.
It is an Attack action - so no Cast a Spell action - and is only one weapon attack, so no Extra Attack used with this Attack action.
It is an Attack action - so no Cast a Spell action - and is only one weapon attack, so no Extra Attack used with this Attack action.
But the first doesn't necessarily lead to the other, there are ways of making attacks that aren't "weapon attacks" and it isn't clear how they are treated, which I think was quindraco's point.
As I see the "one weapon attack only" text is poorly chosen as its meaning isn't clear. Does it mean that you can make one weapon attack and as many non-weapon attacks that your extra attack feature allows or does it mean that you can make one weapon attack but no attacks of any other sort? IMO neither outcome is desirable but I can't see any middle ground.
IMO they should have said "one attack only" as that would both limit the amount of attacks but not restrict the sort of attacks one chooses.
It is an Attack action - so no Cast a Spell action - and is only one weapon attack, so no Extra Attack used with this Attack action.
But the first doesn't necessarily lead to the other, there are ways of making attacks that aren't "weapon attacks" and it isn't clear how they are treated, which I think was quindraco's point.
As I see the "one weapon attack only" text is poorly chosen as its meaning isn't clear. Does it mean that you can make one weapon attack and as many non-weapon attacks that your extra attack feature allows or does it mean that you can make one weapon attack but no attacks of any other sort? IMO neither outcome is desirable but I can't see any middle ground.
IMO they should have said "one attack only" as that would both limit the amount of attacks but not restrict the sort of attacks one chooses.
Yes there are many sorts of "attacks" that a character can make in a turn. However, haste clearly doesn't refer to any sort of attack it explicitly refers to the Attack action (note the capitalization). The Attack action is very clearly defined in the rules. What can you do with an Attack action?
"With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks."
The Attack action allows one melee or ranged attack. Note, not a melee spell attack nor a ranged spell attack - those are dealt with in the Cast a Spell action. The limitation in haste limits the Attack action granted by the spell to one melee or ranged attack. I don't really see how to interpret it otherwise, not via an English language oddity or another way.
Could you grapple, shove or use one of those attacks with the Attack action provided by Haste? Yes since you can make those types of attacks with the Attack action. Can you cast a spell, even an attack spell? No, since that uses the Cast a Spell action not the Attack action. Using the Attack action from Haste allows the character to make one additional attack that they could otherwise make while taking the Attack action - it doesn't give anything more than what the Attack action can be used for - but it limits it to one additional attack only so it limits the extra attack feature.
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If I cast haste on the fighter, could they do: Attack action (twice with level 5 extra attack) Hasted attack (Doesn't get extra attack?) Action Surge (Does this get extra attack?) Bonus action attack (if dual welding) for a total of 5 attacks in one turn at level 5? Or would it be more, or less?
So, reading through the Comments, (ignoring the talk about using spells and what counts as a attack) my understanding of what a fighter could do at 5th level is: Action: 2 Attacks, Bonus Action: Attack with off hand, Haste: 1 Attack, Action Surge: 2 Attacks. For a total of 6 attacks, with Attacks in this context being A one handed Melee Weapon, such as a Long-Sword or Rapier, or 5 if it's a 2 handed weapon. Thanks, and sorry for accdentaly opening the apparent can of worms that is "what counts as a attack for the haste spell".
The only limitation haste applies is to the specific action it gives. You can do anything you'd normally be capable of with your other actions, including the one from action surge. This includes using extra attack.
Haste's action is limited to what it says on the tin: particularly in this case a single attack. Yes, this gives you 5 attacks at level 5. Possibly more if you have something useful to do with a bonus action.
The Attack Action includes the extra attack if you have it. If you are a dual wielding, hasted, level 5 fighter you can make 6 attacks.
2 attacks from the attack action
1 attack from the hasted action
2 attacks from the actions surge attack action
1 from your bonus action.
Haste is one of several spells guaranteed to spark a debate on this forum because it has grammar in its RAW which can be interpreted multiple ways and WOTC has never clarified. Action Surge does get Extra Attack, for certain.
Editing out the intervening words due to them being irrelevant for your purposes, Haste gives you an extra action that "can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) [...] action". An attack (one weapon attack only) action is not defined elsewhere in the rules, and English grammar is context-sensitive as to what this means; because Haste is a spell, we have no idea what this means. It could mean either of the following, and anyone telling you it definitely means either one of them is ignoring the RAW - you have to ask your DM; in order to avoid getting into weeds that don't matter in terms of the rules, because all we're discussing is grammar, I'm going to swap the nouns to a fruit merchant with a sign up advertising a fruit (one citrus fruit only) basket:
The attack action can only be a weapon attack. This applies to your normal action and to the hatred action. Spell attacks use the cast a spell action and also cannot be done with the hasted action. Magic stone is a ranged spell attack so it does not work here. I think that even a fighter with 3 attacks can only throw one magic stone. In not certain in that though so I'll read it through more carefully. The stone could count as a weapon.
I don't know if I understand you. English is not my native language.
However, do you mean that this sentence "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)" would allow you to cast a spell attack depending on the context?
It seems pretty clear to me that you can only do one (and only one) weapon attack. You can't do any other type of attack than weapon attack, and it can only be one, right?
This isn't correct though. Casting the spell to empower the stones take the Cast a Spell action but attacking with the stones are still just attacks. Yes they are ranged spell attacks but that can be done with the regular Attack Action.
So a Fighter taking a normal Attack Action could throw all three stones with the same action if he is high enough level to get to do three attacks.
Doing it with the Haste attack is a bit more unclear. Both depending on the question quindraco posed above and depending on if the stones would count as weapons by themselves. IMO the RAI would be that it only allows for a singular attack and I'm not convinced they do count as weapons (even though I probably would allow it myself). However using a Sling to throw it should mean you qualify as using a weapon.
Yes, that is correct (provided the spell attack is not a weapon attack). I can provide you additional examples of how the grammar works, if you like. Did you understand my example about the fruit merchant?
That is not how English grammar works. English grammar is context sensitive for a sentence with this structure. Here are more examples:
I can keep generating examples, as the English language is rife with instances of both. It's simply not the case that the phrase has a context-free, unambiguous meaning. In fact, if a fruit merchant actually put up the sign I talked about earlier, I would expect many customers to get confused and ask the merchant what they meant, due to the lack of clarity.
All that is to say that the context around "That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action" is not so ambiguous as some people seem to think. The rule is telling you exactly what limited activities you can spend the action on, and it seems obvious from context how it should be interpreted. Some argue differently, but they're ignoring context in order to make a bad argument.
I'd have to disagree with your analogy since it makes assumptions about fruit - the number and type of fruit - which are not valid for the English statement of the haste spell.
"it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
How about this one: sign up advertising fruit - you can take one type of fruit, Oranges (one orange only), strawberries, grapes or apples
Would you interpret this to mean you can take some grapes or apples if you decide to take Oranges which are limited to only one Orange?
The Attack action in 5e is clearly defined (it isn't fruit - it is a specific type of fruit) "With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks." which allows ONLY a melee or ranged attack.
The Extra Attack feature: "Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn" - the Extra Attack feature allows a creature to take a second (or third) attack when they take the Attack action on their turn.
A person with this feature could normally take more than one orange whenever they pick up oranges but if they have access to the special fruit sale and pick oranges then they are limited to taking only ONE extra orange ... or one attack as the case may be ... as part of the sale or the spell.
The Attack action provided by haste provides ONLY an attack action (not cast a spell or any other action) that is limited to ONE weapon attack only. You are welcome to try arguing for some other reading but the Attack action is well defined in 5e, so the qualifier allowing ONLY one weapon attack placed on the Attack action provided by haste is clearly a limitation on the Attack action.
It isn't many people who get confused by what "Attack (one weapon attack only)" action means.
It is an Attack action - so no Cast a Spell action - and is only one weapon attack, so no Extra Attack used with this Attack action.
But the first doesn't necessarily lead to the other, there are ways of making attacks that aren't "weapon attacks" and it isn't clear how they are treated, which I think was quindraco's point.
As I see the "one weapon attack only" text is poorly chosen as its meaning isn't clear. Does it mean that you can make one weapon attack and as many non-weapon attacks that your extra attack feature allows or does it mean that you can make one weapon attack but no attacks of any other sort? IMO neither outcome is desirable but I can't see any middle ground.
IMO they should have said "one attack only" as that would both limit the amount of attacks but not restrict the sort of attacks one chooses.
Yes there are many sorts of "attacks" that a character can make in a turn. However, haste clearly doesn't refer to any sort of attack it explicitly refers to the Attack action (note the capitalization). The Attack action is very clearly defined in the rules. What can you do with an Attack action?
"With this action, you make one melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules that govern attacks."
The Attack action allows one melee or ranged attack. Note, not a melee spell attack nor a ranged spell attack - those are dealt with in the Cast a Spell action. The limitation in haste limits the Attack action granted by the spell to one melee or ranged attack. I don't really see how to interpret it otherwise, not via an English language oddity or another way.
Could you grapple, shove or use one of those attacks with the Attack action provided by Haste? Yes since you can make those types of attacks with the Attack action. Can you cast a spell, even an attack spell? No, since that uses the Cast a Spell action not the Attack action. Using the Attack action from Haste allows the character to make one additional attack that they could otherwise make while taking the Attack action - it doesn't give anything more than what the Attack action can be used for - but it limits it to one additional attack only so it limits the extra attack feature.