When this subclass first came out, I thought it was way underpowered because the Bite attack grants an anemic situational Heal, and the Claw attacks preclude you from using any sort of weapon. However, I'm considering running one in an upcoming campaign and I wanted to make sure I was getting my math right.
Race: Beasthide Shifter because I don't like that nearly everyone seems to like V. Humans. +1 Str, +2 Con, Temp HP, and +1 AC when Shifted. Also, Darkvision 60'
Class: Path of the Beast Barbarian (because Totem is getting way old). I intend to use the Claws primarily and here's where I fear I might be messing up; "Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."
Notice that it doesn't say 'as a Bonus Action' or 'with the other hand/claw', it simply says 'additional Attack.' This being said, if I dip 1 level into Fighter and take the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, does that mean that I'll be making 1 Attack (base), +1 Attack (while raging with the claws), PLUS a third attack with the off-hand from TWF?
If so, then the build appeals to me a lot because if I go to lvl 11 Fighter I'll be making 5 attacks without Action Surge, each at +7 damage (with +2 from Rage and assuming 20 Str).
You are correct, the extra Claw attack is part of the Attack Action. So at level 3 you get 2 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack, and at level 5 you can either make 3 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack plus 2 Claw attacks.
Two-weapon fighting technically requires that you be holding a weapon in each hand when you make the first attack as part of an Attack Action. As the Claws are a part of your body people argue that they do not count as being held, similar to Unarmed Strikes. Once you reach 5th level it is possible to juggle your weapons so you can meet this requirement with Handaxes while using the 1 free draw or stow to also get your Claws attacks.
However there are easier ways to weaponize your bonus action. Since you are thinking of going Shifter the MotM Longtooth Shifter is the simplest way. Shift's per day scale at almost the same time as Rage's per day, and you get to make the Bite attack as part of Shifting.
There is also Monk since the Claws are Simple Weapons they count as Monk Weapons. Using the free Martial Arts attack is rough though because you can't be wearing armor or a shield. But Flurry of Blows doesn't care if you are wearing armor or a shield.
Just as a final note the free attacks given by Claws is only once per turn, so this doesn't synergize with Action Surge.
You are correct, the extra Claw attack is part of the Attack Action. So at level 3 you get 2 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack, and at level 5 you can either make 3 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack plus 2 Claw attacks.
Two-weapon fighting technically requires that you be holding a weapon in each hand when you make the first attack as part of an Attack Action. As the Claws are a part of your body people argue that they do not count as being held, similar to Unarmed Strikes. Once you reach 5th level it is possible to juggle your weapons so you can meet this requirement with Handaxes while using the 1 free draw or stow to also get your Claws attacks.
However there are easier ways to weaponize your bonus action. Since you are thinking of going Shifter the MotM Longtooth Shifter is the simplest way. Shift's per day scale at almost the same time as Rage's per day, and you get to make the Bite attack as part of Shifting.
There is also Monk since the Claws are Simple Weapons they count as Monk Weapons. Using the free Martial Arts attack is rough though because you can't be wearing armor or a shield. But Flurry of Blows doesn't care if you are wearing armor or a shield.
Just as a final note the free attacks given by Claws is only once per turn, so this doesn't synergize with Action Surge.
So you're suggesting eliminating the off-hand Bonus Action attack in favor of the Bite BA attack? Looking at the change in D&DB it does a tad more damage and doesn't require the Fighter dip. This means I can ride all the way to lvl 20 for that sweet, sweet Barb capstone ability (assuming the campaign goes that long).
Sadly, that means no Action Surge but as you pointed out the Claws don't gain as much from that as other multi-attackers do. Good points in any case.
Class: Path of the Beast Barbarian (because Totem is getting way old). I intend to use the Claws primarily and here's where I fear I might be messing up; "Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."
Notice that it doesn't say 'as a Bonus Action' or 'with the other hand/claw', it simply says 'additional Attack.' This being said, if I dip 1 level into Fighter and take the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, does that mean that I'll be making 1 Attack (base), +1 Attack (while raging with the claws), PLUS a third attack with the off-hand from TWF?
No - there's a second reason I can get into if you really want to get into the weeds, but for now it suffices that the Claw isn't Light, which is absolutely required for two-weapon fighting without a feat to fix it.This means you can't combine two-weapon fighting (remember, as a barbarian, you have less use for the twf style than almost anyone else, because you don't need the style for your rage damage to apply) with the claw until you have Extra Attack, which generally takes level 5 (will be slower if you multiclass). The combination at that point, using a scimitar as an example, looks like this:
Start turn with Scimitar X in Claw A and Claw B is empty.
Attack action: Attack with Scimitar X in Claw A.
Attack action: Attack with Claw B due to second attack.
Attack action: Attack with Claw B due to how Claws work.
Item Interaction: Draw Scimitar Y to Claw B.
Bonus Action: attack with Scimitar Y in Claw B due to how the two-weapon fighting rules work. Without the twf style, this will not include your ability score bonus, but will include all other bonuses, including Rage.
Turn 2: Attack with Scimitar Y.
Turn 2: Sheathe Scimitar Y.
Turn 2: Claw B.
Turn 2: Claw B second time.
Turn 2: Bonus action attack with Scimitar X.
Turn 3: Goto 1.
This can be done every turn except for the turn on which you rage (or otherwise use your bonus action), giving you 4 attacks.
Class: Path of the Beast Barbarian (because Totem is getting way old). I intend to use the Claws primarily and here's where I fear I might be messing up; "Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."
Notice that it doesn't say 'as a Bonus Action' or 'with the other hand/claw', it simply says 'additional Attack.' This being said, if I dip 1 level into Fighter and take the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, does that mean that I'll be making 1 Attack (base), +1 Attack (while raging with the claws), PLUS a third attack with the off-hand from TWF?
No - there's a second reason I can get into if you really want to get into the weeds, but for now it suffices that the Claw isn't Light, which is absolutely required for two-weapon fighting without a feat to fix it.This means you can't combine two-weapon fighting (remember, as a barbarian, you have less use for the twf style than almost anyone else, because you don't need the style for your rage damage to apply) with the claw until you have Extra Attack, which generally takes level 5 (will be slower if you multiclass). The combination at that point, using a scimitar as an example, looks like this:
Start turn with Scimitar in Claw A and Claw B is empty.
Attack action: Attack with Scimitar in Claw A.
Attack action: Attack with Claw B due to second attack.
Attack action: Attack with Claw B due to how Claws work.
Item Interaction: move Scimitar to Claw B.
Bonus Action: attack with Scimitar in Claw B due to how the two-weapon fighting rules work. Without the twf style, this will not include your ability score bonus, but will include all other bonuses, including Rage.
This can be done every turn except for the turn on which you rage (or otherwise use your bonus action), giving you 4 attacks.
Wouldn’t that not work because of:
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a differentlight melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
Yeah, I didn't want to get into the nitty gritty of dual wielding with Claws. It is possible, but the order of actions is very important to ensure you don't violate some rule or other. Here is the order of operations though:
Start with a handaxe and a free hand
Round 1: Rage, Axe, Claw, Claw - no two weapon fighting possible due to starting Rage.
Round 2: Claw, Claw, draw Axe, Axe, bonus Axe - get the Claw attacks out first and draw your offhand weapon before completing the attack action with you main hand weapon. This way you are holding a weapon in each hand when you use your attack action to attack with a light weapon, satisfying the Two-weapon fighting rules. And finish off with your offhand bonus action attack.
Round 3: Axe, stow Axe, Claw, Claw, bonus Axe - this round you start with a weapon in each hand so your first attack with the attack action is with your main hand weapon to meet the TWF rules. Then you stow your main hand weapon and make your two Claw attacks and finish with your offhand bonus action attack.
Repeat 2 and 3.
Or you could go Longtooth Shifter and call it a day. There are other ways to do it but Longtooth Shifter is the simplest and let's you go pure Barbarian.
Going Lizardfolk with the Beast Barb/Monk combo helps keep your AC decent while not wearing armor and reduce the MADness of the build.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you’re holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a differentlight melee weapon that you’re holding in the other hand. You don’t add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative.
See bolded.
I have modified my original post to cover this (please leave your quote intact so readers have context).
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When this subclass first came out, I thought it was way underpowered because the Bite attack grants an anemic situational Heal, and the Claw attacks preclude you from using any sort of weapon. However, I'm considering running one in an upcoming campaign and I wanted to make sure I was getting my math right.
Race: Beasthide Shifter because I don't like that nearly everyone seems to like V. Humans. +1 Str, +2 Con, Temp HP, and +1 AC when Shifted. Also, Darkvision 60'
Class: Path of the Beast Barbarian (because Totem is getting way old). I intend to use the Claws primarily and here's where I fear I might be messing up; "Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."
Notice that it doesn't say 'as a Bonus Action' or 'with the other hand/claw', it simply says 'additional Attack.' This being said, if I dip 1 level into Fighter and take the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, does that mean that I'll be making 1 Attack (base), +1 Attack (while raging with the claws), PLUS a third attack with the off-hand from TWF?
If so, then the build appeals to me a lot because if I go to lvl 11 Fighter I'll be making 5 attacks without Action Surge, each at +7 damage (with +2 from Rage and assuming 20 Str).
Thanks in advance.
You are correct, the extra Claw attack is part of the Attack Action. So at level 3 you get 2 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack, and at level 5 you can either make 3 Claw attacks or 1 weapon attack plus 2 Claw attacks.
Two-weapon fighting technically requires that you be holding a weapon in each hand when you make the first attack as part of an Attack Action. As the Claws are a part of your body people argue that they do not count as being held, similar to Unarmed Strikes. Once you reach 5th level it is possible to juggle your weapons so you can meet this requirement with Handaxes while using the 1 free draw or stow to also get your Claws attacks.
However there are easier ways to weaponize your bonus action. Since you are thinking of going Shifter the MotM Longtooth Shifter is the simplest way. Shift's per day scale at almost the same time as Rage's per day, and you get to make the Bite attack as part of Shifting.
There is also Monk since the Claws are Simple Weapons they count as Monk Weapons. Using the free Martial Arts attack is rough though because you can't be wearing armor or a shield. But Flurry of Blows doesn't care if you are wearing armor or a shield.
Just as a final note the free attacks given by Claws is only once per turn, so this doesn't synergize with Action Surge.
So you're suggesting eliminating the off-hand Bonus Action attack in favor of the Bite BA attack? Looking at the change in D&DB it does a tad more damage and doesn't require the Fighter dip. This means I can ride all the way to lvl 20 for that sweet, sweet Barb capstone ability (assuming the campaign goes that long).
Sadly, that means no Action Surge but as you pointed out the Claws don't gain as much from that as other multi-attackers do. Good points in any case.
No - there's a second reason I can get into if you really want to get into the weeds, but for now it suffices that the Claw isn't Light, which is absolutely required for two-weapon fighting without a feat to fix it. This means you can't combine two-weapon fighting (remember, as a barbarian, you have less use for the twf style than almost anyone else, because you don't need the style for your rage damage to apply) with the claw until you have Extra Attack, which generally takes level 5 (will be slower if you multiclass). The combination at that point, using a scimitar as an example, looks like this:
This can be done every turn except for the turn on which you rage (or otherwise use your bonus action), giving you 4 attacks.
Wouldn’t that not work because of:
See bolded.
Yeah, I didn't want to get into the nitty gritty of dual wielding with Claws. It is possible, but the order of actions is very important to ensure you don't violate some rule or other. Here is the order of operations though:
Start with a handaxe and a free hand
Round 1: Rage, Axe, Claw, Claw - no two weapon fighting possible due to starting Rage.
Round 2: Claw, Claw, draw Axe, Axe, bonus Axe - get the Claw attacks out first and draw your offhand weapon before completing the attack action with you main hand weapon. This way you are holding a weapon in each hand when you use your attack action to attack with a light weapon, satisfying the Two-weapon fighting rules. And finish off with your offhand bonus action attack.
Round 3: Axe, stow Axe, Claw, Claw, bonus Axe - this round you start with a weapon in each hand so your first attack with the attack action is with your main hand weapon to meet the TWF rules. Then you stow your main hand weapon and make your two Claw attacks and finish with your offhand bonus action attack.
Repeat 2 and 3.
Or you could go Longtooth Shifter and call it a day. There are other ways to do it but Longtooth Shifter is the simplest and let's you go pure Barbarian.
Going Lizardfolk with the Beast Barb/Monk combo helps keep your AC decent while not wearing armor and reduce the MADness of the build.
I have modified my original post to cover this (please leave your quote intact so readers have context).