I was playing a campaing the other day, and I chose to ake the action to push the boss out of the abyss. It was the first time we've tried that, so DM allowed it. I was a Barbarian (advantage on atletics) and the DM was unfortunate on his saving throw roll, resulting in instsnt death to the boss.
IDK that is very OP, to have an instant kill move like that. I was thinking of ways to balance it.
The best I could think about is that the Pusher makes an regular unarmed strike attack roll and the pushed does an Dexterity saving throw. If attack roll > saving throw pushed has to do another dex saving throw to see if he can grab the ledge or strength to see if he resists the pushing; or instantly die. However if attack roll < saving throw, pushed dodges and pusher pushes himself foward, which causes the PUSHER to actually fall and having to make the dex save.
That extremely sharp double edge sword adds a level of threat that balances it out.
Without having played the module and therefore not knowing how the fight arena was set up or the stats of the enemy being shoved, it's hard to say if this was OP. Standing 5 ft in front of a portal of instant death sounds like a lack of planning on the boss's part.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Shoving already sucks. You got lucky to encounter a situation where it was ever useful. You don't need to nerf yourself -- you'll never have spells, so you'll never truly be overpowered. ;)
It is just like shoving somebody off the side of a cliff.
The only possible DM modifier might be that because the creature being pushed knows that what is behind will mean "instant death", then the pusher would have disadvantage on the shove attack due to the recipient deciding to specifically prevent the fatal shove.
I’d probably do something similar, but allow one of several possibilities (checked, probably as a reaction): grabbing the ledge, grabbing the pusher and taking them along for the ride or possibly failing forward into hanging from the PC’s leg (vs ledge) if the character counters somehow, maybe redirecting the direction of the push, grabbing someone else to take along, allowing an ally a reaction to prevent certain falling, etc.
I’d probably do something similar, but allow one of several possibilities (checked, probably as a reaction): grabbing the ledge, grabbing the pusher and taking them along for the ride or possibly failing forward into hanging from the PC’s leg (vs ledge) if the character counters somehow, maybe redirecting the direction of the push, grabbing someone else to take along, allowing an ally a reaction to prevent certain falling, etc.
It might even be interesting to chain that into a series of back and forth a checks until someone fails.
I’d probably do something similar, but allow one of several possibilities (checked, probably as a reaction): grabbing the ledge, grabbing the pusher and taking them along for the ride or possibly failing forward into hanging from the PC’s leg (vs ledge) if the character counters somehow, maybe redirecting the direction of the push, grabbing someone else to take along, allowing an ally a reaction to prevent certain falling, etc.
It might even be interesting to chain that into a series of back and forth a checks until someone fails.
For a secondary effect, that is. The push worked and the defender will face some consequence.
If the villain would like to use an attack on his own turn to shove someone, that's one thing. I don't think I'd give him a free reaction to be able to do it on the Barbarian's turn, just because the Barbarian failed his shove attempt. The hypothetical Barbarian would have already wasted an attack, why punish him further?
Shove isn't as problem (especialy on its own). Standing right on the edge of thre abyss (or a cliff) is not clever especially when you are with someone who wants ot kill you. Shove is limited to creatures one size larger than the attacker. If the guy trying to shove him fails the attack is wasted.
There are ways in which a rtarget can be moved much futher.
An open hand monk on a flurry of blows can try to force any creature (regardless of size) to move 15ft, if both flurry of blow attacks hit that could potentially be 30 ft. the push is essentially a free action as the hit still causes damage.
A Warlock with repelling blast can push a creature 10 ft. The rules are not clear but it can be interpreted that each beam will do so (for potentially 30ft of movement at level 11). There is no save for this and it is also essentially free.
Thunderwave is only a 1st level spell but can move multiple creatures back 10 ft.
With these the BBEG can be thinking he is a safe distance from the edge and suddently find himself over the edge especially if the party work together to move him.
There are other ways of to get rid of a boss with a single action, once a party get to level 7 any creature from another plane is one bad roll away from being sent home.
Shove isn't as problem (especialy on its own). Standing right on the edge of thre abyss (or a cliff) is not clever especially when you are with someone who wants ot kill you. Shove is limited to creatures one size larger than the attacker. If the guy trying to shove him fails the attack is wasted.
But standing on a ledge near the edge of a cliff, a creature can easily manoeuvre to get into a position where the shove will push them towards the edge - unless all combatants are pressed up against the wall; and having Extra Attack will allow two or more shoves to be made in series to push them near/next to and then over the edge.
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I was playing a campaing the other day, and I chose to ake the action to push the boss out of the abyss. It was the first time we've tried that, so DM allowed it. I was a Barbarian (advantage on atletics) and the DM was unfortunate on his saving throw roll, resulting in instsnt death to the boss.
IDK that is very OP, to have an instant kill move like that. I was thinking of ways to balance it.
The best I could think about is that the Pusher makes an regular unarmed strike attack roll and the pushed does an Dexterity saving throw. If attack roll > saving throw pushed has to do another dex saving throw to see if he can grab the ledge or strength to see if he resists the pushing; or instantly die. However if attack roll < saving throw, pushed dodges and pusher pushes himself foward, which causes the PUSHER to actually fall and having to make the dex save.
That extremely sharp double edge sword adds a level of threat that balances it out.
What do you think? Do you have a better idea?
Without having played the module and therefore not knowing how the fight arena was set up or the stats of the enemy being shoved, it's hard to say if this was OP. Standing 5 ft in front of a portal of instant death sounds like a lack of planning on the boss's part.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Shoving already sucks. You got lucky to encounter a situation where it was ever useful. You don't need to nerf yourself -- you'll never have spells, so you'll never truly be overpowered. ;)
It is just like shoving somebody off the side of a cliff.
The only possible DM modifier might be that because the creature being pushed knows that what is behind will mean "instant death", then the pusher would have disadvantage on the shove attack due to the recipient deciding to specifically prevent the fatal shove.
I’d probably do something similar, but allow one of several possibilities (checked, probably as a reaction): grabbing the ledge, grabbing the pusher and taking them along for the ride or possibly failing forward into hanging from the PC’s leg (vs ledge) if the character counters somehow, maybe redirecting the direction of the push, grabbing someone else to take along, allowing an ally a reaction to prevent certain falling, etc.
It might even be interesting to chain that into a series of back and forth a checks until someone fails.
For a secondary effect, that is. The push worked and the defender will face some consequence.
If the villain would like to use an attack on his own turn to shove someone, that's one thing. I don't think I'd give him a free reaction to be able to do it on the Barbarian's turn, just because the Barbarian failed his shove attempt. The hypothetical Barbarian would have already wasted an attack, why punish him further?
Shove isn't as problem (especialy on its own). Standing right on the edge of thre abyss (or a cliff) is not clever especially when you are with someone who wants ot kill you. Shove is limited to creatures one size larger than the attacker. If the guy trying to shove him fails the attack is wasted.
There are ways in which a rtarget can be moved much futher.
With these the BBEG can be thinking he is a safe distance from the edge and suddently find himself over the edge especially if the party work together to move him.
There are other ways of to get rid of a boss with a single action, once a party get to level 7 any creature from another plane is one bad roll away from being sent home.
But standing on a ledge near the edge of a cliff, a creature can easily manoeuvre to get into a position where the shove will push them towards the edge - unless all combatants are pressed up against the wall; and having Extra Attack will allow two or more shoves to be made in series to push them near/next to and then over the edge.