Okay, so I know people who see this will initially be like, "No, Elven Accuracy doesn't work with Strength attacks." I have, however, devised a method by which, if I am not mistaken, allows this combination, and with fairly little difficulty. If I'm wrong, which I probably am... oh well. This can be the new something I learn today. Or tomorrow. Or whenever you respond to point out my oversights.
First off, the build is Hexblade 3/Barbarian X (subclass doesn't matter), using any race that unlocks Elven Accuracy. I personally would choose Half-Drow for the mechanical, as well as some thematic, synergy. We're going to take Pact of the Blade at Warlock 3 and EA at Barb 4. Our Warlock Invocations are Improved Pact Weapon, Devil's Sight, and any one other.
Now, to explain why I built this the way I did. In short, (1) Hex Warrior allows you to use CHA instead of STR or DEX with weapons you conjure with Pact of the Blade. (2) EA effectively gives you double instead of single advantage on DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA attacks. (3) Barbarians with greataxes do a whole lot of damage when they crit, and (4) double advantage gives you an increased chance to crit. All of this combined equals a rather hefty pile of damage.
If you want it all laid out, it's in this spoiler:
From Hex Warrior:
When you attack with [your hex] weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.... If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type.
So you can conjure a greataxe (a +1 greataxe, actually, because of Improved Pact Weapon) and use CHA instead of STR.
And from Elven Accuracy:
Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once.
So your greataxe - which you wield with sheer force of will - gets triple advantage, when you have advantage. Rolling three d20s each attack, twice a turn, gives you a fairly high chance of critting - each of which will eventually give you a total of 3 or 4 d12s of magical slashing damage, which is perfectly effective against anything other than swarms and some oozes.
The biggest disappointment I had when checking the rules for this build is that Reckless Attack doesn't work with it (you have to attack specifically with STR). As for generating advantage, having party members help (maybe even help) will... well, help. But when they can't or won't, you have a couple options. Remember how this character is a Half-Drow? Well, that gives us access to both Faerie Fire (simple advantage) and Darkness (slightly more complex advantage, as your target has to be within the bubble) - remember, we have Devil's Sight. I'm sure there are plenty of other mechanics you could pile onto this character to make advantage-generation more easily accessible.
So... What do y'all think? Does this work? How effective is it (aside from being kinda MAD)? How can it be improved?
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I think it "works," but I don't think you're getting much out of it. The only thing Barbarian seems to be doing for this build is giving you extra crit damage. Every other aspect of the class is being wasted. If the goal is to maximize damage, a paladin multiclass seems easier. Smiting on a crit will do more for you than Brutal Critical, and the rest of the paladin features are actually still useful.
Yes it absolutely works, you will still get the benefits from rage except the +2 damage as that only applies to strength based attacks. Reckless attack doesn’t work, but pretty much all of the paths will work as they don’t specify strength based attacks either. There is a single ability that modifies reckless attack so that wouldn’t work though.
As above though, a paladin multiclass is more optimised, there is even a name for it as it’s bery common, look up padlock builds on youtube.
SagaTympana is correct, it is not just Reckless Attacks that only works with Strength based melee attacks. Your bonus damage when raging also only applies to Strength based melee attacks. Getting advantage on Strength checks while raging still works but considering you are likely dumping Strength it isn't really worth it.
You are honestly better off just going pure Warlock and getting the Lifedrinker Invocation so you can add double your Charisma bonus to your damage rolls.
If you really want the fun crit damage you can also get the Eldritch Smite Invocation or multiclass into Paladin. A smite on a crit with just a 1st level spell slot is an extra 18 damage on average. To get close to that with Barbarian you need 17 levels for Brutal Critical 3 for the additional 19.5 damage on crit. Brutal Critical is just a terrible class feature.
The only other potential benefit of going Barbarian is the damage resistance from Rage. It takes 7 levels but eventually Rune Knight Fighter's get the same damage resistances once per short rest with none of the strings of Rage. Personally I don't think it is worth it but it is much more useful than Rage and you get all the fun benefits of going Fighter along with it.
Actually, no he wasn’t, as he stated that none of the barbarian features work except brutal critical - which is clearly incorrect. As I said, the only things that don’t work are the bonus damage and reckless attack. Unarmored defence can be really good depending on your stats, increased speed, danger sense, resistances, advantage on strength checks and saves, brutal critical, and the path features are more than worth it. As I said, it’s not the most optimal build but it’s also not a bad build, and will be plenty fun to play.
No, Saga said that it "it 'works,' but I don't think you're getting much out of it." And that is absolutely true. Several of the things that you'd want to work are turned off, and even the things that do "work," like unarmored defense are weakened by the fact that you're focusing on charisma, ostensibly at the expense of putting a lot of points into Dex. You're probably better served by the medium armor that the hexblade gets anyway.
Saga seems to point out, and I agree, that the things you lose from this combo are all the things that are specific to barbarian. You need to spend 9 levels in barbarian, and along the way gain very little that you couldn't have gained elsewhere except an extra damage die on criticals (so something like maybe 1 dpr with a greataxe if you have advantage, which you aren't getting from Barbarian -- even though that is built into the class and is a wasted feature on this build). If you can't find 1 dpr from 9 levels in ANY other class, you're I don't think you're looking very hard.
The point is that the features that you can use from this build are not powerful enough to justify taking the ones that you cannot instead of just choosing a build that synergies better. The stuff that a hexblade gains from barbarian you could gain elsewhere better.
Yeah, I get that this build is far from optimized, I just thought it was interesting that you could do it. 🤷♂️
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Would this make sense to put into a Samurai Fighter/Hexblade Multiclass? It's the only other class I can think of where you can easily just give yourself advantage... although it has a limited number of uses per day.
I've gotta agree... Hexadin seems to do more with this concept easily, since it gives you the same chance of hitting, but you can do more with those hits. Probably easiest to go Oath of Vengeance, since you can just outright give yourself advantage against a single target for an entire combat. Paladin also pairs better with the Half-Drow concept, since it will let you cast and concentrate on Faerie Fire in combat as an additional source of advantage.
Would this make sense to put into a Samurai Fighter/Hexblade Multiclass? It's the only other class I can think of where you can easily just give yourself advantage... although it has a limited number of uses per day.
I've gotta agree... Hexadin seems to do more with this concept easily, since it gives you the same chance of hitting, but you can do more with those hits. Probably easiest to go Oath of Vengeance, since you can just outright give yourself advantage against a single target for an entire combat. Paladin also pairs better with the Half-Drow concept, since it will let you cast and concentrate on Faerie Fire in combat as an additional source of advantage.
Samurai hadn’t occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense. How well would something like Hexblade 3/Samurai 3/Paladin 14 work? It doesn’t really come online until like level 8, unfortunately, but there are situations when that wouldn’t matter. Is that just a “no, you’re spread too thin” build, or would it be a viable alternative to pure Paladin or something similar?
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I think it would work. I would be tempted to start Warlock and take it to 5 just to get Hex Warrior from the start and also get Extra Attack ASAP. But 5 Hexblades/ 5 Oath of Vengeance/ 3 Samurai seems like it would be a good level 13 build. That is enough for most campaigns and your only short one ASI and the second ASI was only delayed one level.
I don't tend to look at or build Paladins though so take what I say with a hefty grain of salt.
As always your DM is the final arbiter if this build works. I guess it also depends on what kind of game you are looking to play. Are you just looking for maximum damage? Or is this a cool backstory that has been translated into a character?
It's already been stated you are giving up a lot of Barbarian features just to take one feat. The loss of both Reckless Attack and the Rage damage bonus. You can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging, so you lose a lot of the Warlock power.
While advantage is always good, asking your party to give up their action for 'Help' is something you should ask them ahead of time (nicely)... and be ok if they say 'no thank you'. There is a lot of risk excepting advantage to give you a shot, and only a shot, at extra crit damage. But if you have your heart set on it, talk with your DM and see if they are ok with the concept.
Lastly, keep in mind the 'power' of any party is technically an illusion. No matter how min/maxed the players twink their PC's out with, and DM can (and should) adjust the encounters appropriately to give a challenge. A DM can slay a party at any time but with a few extra monsters, hazards, etc. The goal is to have fun. Conversely even a 'weak' combat party can have a perfectly fun adventure crafted for them. D&D is all about having fun, and for many that isn't always about doing the most damage.
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
No, Saga said that it "it 'works,' but I don't think you're getting much out of it." And that is absolutely true. Several of the things that you'd want to work are turned off, and even the things that do "work," like unarmored defense are weakened by the fact that you're focusing on charisma, ostensibly at the expense of putting a lot of points into Dex. You're probably better served by the medium armor that the hexblade gets anyway.
Saga seems to point out, and I agree, that the things you lose from this combo are all the things that are specific to barbarian. You need to spend 9 levels in barbarian, and along the way gain very little that you couldn't have gained elsewhere except an extra damage die on criticals (so something like maybe 1 dpr with a greataxe if you have advantage, which you aren't getting from Barbarian -- even though that is built into the class and is a wasted feature on this build). If you can't find 1 dpr from 9 levels in ANY other class, you're I don't think you're looking very hard.
The point is that the features that you can use from this build are not powerful enough to justify taking the ones that you cannot instead of just choosing a build that synergies better. The stuff that a hexblade gains from barbarian you could gain elsewhere better.
“ I think it "works," but I don't think you're getting much out of it. The only thing Barbarian seems to be doing for this build is giving you extra crit damage. Every other aspect of the class is being wasted” Is what he actually said. And no, you don’t need 9 levels of barbarian, you literally only need 1 level for rage, or 3 for the subclass allowing you to still get 17 in Warlock. At the end of the day there may be 1 super optimised character build - but if we only did that then everyone would be a Padlock, a Chronogy Wizard or a Coffeelock. Thankfully some people like to play for fun and use other builds. A Hexblade with 3 levels of Totem warrior or Zealot is perfectly viable and has great rp potential. It just won’t be as god mode powerful as a Glory/Hexblade Padlock.
No, Saga said that it "it 'works,' but I don't think you're getting much out of it." And that is absolutely true. Several of the things that you'd want to work are turned off, and even the things that do "work," like unarmored defense are weakened by the fact that you're focusing on charisma, ostensibly at the expense of putting a lot of points into Dex. You're probably better served by the medium armor that the hexblade gets anyway.
Saga seems to point out, and I agree, that the things you lose from this combo are all the things that are specific to barbarian. You need to spend 9 levels in barbarian, and along the way gain very little that you couldn't have gained elsewhere except an extra damage die on criticals (so something like maybe 1 dpr with a greataxe if you have advantage, which you aren't getting from Barbarian -- even though that is built into the class and is a wasted feature on this build). If you can't find 1 dpr from 9 levels in ANY other class, you're I don't think you're looking very hard.
The point is that the features that you can use from this build are not powerful enough to justify taking the ones that you cannot instead of just choosing a build that synergies better. The stuff that a hexblade gains from barbarian you could gain elsewhere better.
“ I think it "works," but I don't think you're getting much out of it. The only thing Barbarian seems to be doing for this build is giving you extra crit damage. Every other aspect of the class is being wasted” Is what he actually said. And no, you don’t need 9 levels of barbarian, you literally only need 1 level for rage, or 3 for the subclass allowing you to still get 17 in Warlock. At the end of the day there may be 1 super optimised character build - but if we only did that then everyone would be a Padlock, a Chronogy Wizard or a Coffeelock. Thankfully some people like to play for fun and use other builds. A Hexblade with 3 levels of Totem warrior or Zealot is perfectly viable and has great rp potential. It just won’t be as god mode powerful as a Glory/Hexblade Padlock.
First of all, you keep ascribing genders to people. If you're going to do that, at least look at their profile picture.
Secondly, the brutal criticals are the thing the OP seems to want out of the levels in barbarian. And Saga pointed that out because everything else you can get from barbarian can probably be better served by another class with fewer levels -- some of which will give you features you might actually be able to use. Even brutal criticals aren't that impressive considering you could add to a crit 1d12 for your investment, or 5d6 from a different set of levels. Or 5d8.
Third, pointing out that you can get more upsides and fewer downsides from other classes is answering exactly what the OP was looking for, I think. They ask if the build works, and if it is effective. The answer is "it could be better." If you want to know how good your build is, you certainly will be comparing to the most optimized, and when you make that comparison, features that you have but cannot use will not improve the comparison for your build -- those features are dead features.
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Okay, so I know people who see this will initially be like, "No, Elven Accuracy doesn't work with Strength attacks." I have, however, devised a method by which, if I am not mistaken, allows this combination, and with fairly little difficulty. If I'm wrong, which I probably am... oh well. This can be the new something I learn today. Or tomorrow. Or whenever you respond to point out my oversights.
First off, the build is Hexblade 3/Barbarian X (subclass doesn't matter), using any race that unlocks Elven Accuracy. I personally would choose Half-Drow for the mechanical, as well as some thematic, synergy. We're going to take Pact of the Blade at Warlock 3 and EA at Barb 4. Our Warlock Invocations are Improved Pact Weapon, Devil's Sight, and any one other.
Now, to explain why I built this the way I did. In short, (1) Hex Warrior allows you to use CHA instead of STR or DEX with weapons you conjure with Pact of the Blade. (2) EA effectively gives you double instead of single advantage on DEX, INT, WIS, and CHA attacks. (3) Barbarians with greataxes do a whole lot of damage when they crit, and (4) double advantage gives you an increased chance to crit. All of this combined equals a rather hefty pile of damage.
If you want it all laid out, it's in this spoiler:
From Hex Warrior:
So you can conjure a greataxe (a +1 greataxe, actually, because of Improved Pact Weapon) and use CHA instead of STR.
And from Elven Accuracy:
So your greataxe - which you wield with sheer force of will - gets triple advantage, when you have advantage. Rolling three d20s each attack, twice a turn, gives you a fairly high chance of critting - each of which will eventually give you a total of 3 or 4 d12s of magical slashing damage, which is perfectly effective against anything other than swarms and some oozes.
The biggest disappointment I had when checking the rules for this build is that Reckless Attack doesn't work with it (you have to attack specifically with STR). As for generating advantage, having party members help (maybe even help) will... well, help. But when they can't or won't, you have a couple options. Remember how this character is a Half-Drow? Well, that gives us access to both Faerie Fire (simple advantage) and Darkness (slightly more complex advantage, as your target has to be within the bubble) - remember, we have Devil's Sight. I'm sure there are plenty of other mechanics you could pile onto this character to make advantage-generation more easily accessible.
So... What do y'all think? Does this work? How effective is it (aside from being kinda MAD)? How can it be improved?
Join the Competition of the Finest 'Brews XIX! (Or just spectate and vote, that's cool too. Either way, go there. It's awesome, and it'll be even more awesome if you join.)
I think it "works," but I don't think you're getting much out of it. The only thing Barbarian seems to be doing for this build is giving you extra crit damage. Every other aspect of the class is being wasted. If the goal is to maximize damage, a paladin multiclass seems easier. Smiting on a crit will do more for you than Brutal Critical, and the rest of the paladin features are actually still useful.
Yes it absolutely works, you will still get the benefits from rage except the +2 damage as that only applies to strength based attacks. Reckless attack doesn’t work, but pretty much all of the paths will work as they don’t specify strength based attacks either. There is a single ability that modifies reckless attack so that wouldn’t work though.
As above though, a paladin multiclass is more optimised, there is even a name for it as it’s bery common, look up padlock builds on youtube.
SagaTympana is correct, it is not just Reckless Attacks that only works with Strength based melee attacks. Your bonus damage when raging also only applies to Strength based melee attacks. Getting advantage on Strength checks while raging still works but considering you are likely dumping Strength it isn't really worth it.
You are honestly better off just going pure Warlock and getting the Lifedrinker Invocation so you can add double your Charisma bonus to your damage rolls.
If you really want the fun crit damage you can also get the Eldritch Smite Invocation or multiclass into Paladin. A smite on a crit with just a 1st level spell slot is an extra 18 damage on average. To get close to that with Barbarian you need 17 levels for Brutal Critical 3 for the additional 19.5 damage on crit. Brutal Critical is just a terrible class feature.
The only other potential benefit of going Barbarian is the damage resistance from Rage. It takes 7 levels but eventually Rune Knight Fighter's get the same damage resistances once per short rest with none of the strings of Rage. Personally I don't think it is worth it but it is much more useful than Rage and you get all the fun benefits of going Fighter along with it.
Actually, no he wasn’t, as he stated that none of the barbarian features work except brutal critical - which is clearly incorrect. As I said, the only things that don’t work are the bonus damage and reckless attack. Unarmored defence can be really good depending on your stats, increased speed, danger sense, resistances, advantage on strength checks and saves, brutal critical, and the path features are more than worth it. As I said, it’s not the most optimal build but it’s also not a bad build, and will be plenty fun to play.
No, Saga said that it "it 'works,' but I don't think you're getting much out of it." And that is absolutely true. Several of the things that you'd want to work are turned off, and even the things that do "work," like unarmored defense are weakened by the fact that you're focusing on charisma, ostensibly at the expense of putting a lot of points into Dex. You're probably better served by the medium armor that the hexblade gets anyway.
Saga seems to point out, and I agree, that the things you lose from this combo are all the things that are specific to barbarian. You need to spend 9 levels in barbarian, and along the way gain very little that you couldn't have gained elsewhere except an extra damage die on criticals (so something like maybe 1 dpr with a greataxe if you have advantage, which you aren't getting from Barbarian -- even though that is built into the class and is a wasted feature on this build). If you can't find 1 dpr from 9 levels in ANY other class, you're I don't think you're looking very hard.
The point is that the features that you can use from this build are not powerful enough to justify taking the ones that you cannot instead of just choosing a build that synergies better. The stuff that a hexblade gains from barbarian you could gain elsewhere better.
Yeah, I get that this build is far from optimized, I just thought it was interesting that you could do it. 🤷♂️
Join the Competition of the Finest 'Brews XIX! (Or just spectate and vote, that's cool too. Either way, go there. It's awesome, and it'll be even more awesome if you join.)
Would this make sense to put into a Samurai Fighter/Hexblade Multiclass? It's the only other class I can think of where you can easily just give yourself advantage... although it has a limited number of uses per day.
I've gotta agree... Hexadin seems to do more with this concept easily, since it gives you the same chance of hitting, but you can do more with those hits. Probably easiest to go Oath of Vengeance, since you can just outright give yourself advantage against a single target for an entire combat. Paladin also pairs better with the Half-Drow concept, since it will let you cast and concentrate on Faerie Fire in combat as an additional source of advantage.
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Samurai hadn’t occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense. How well would something like Hexblade 3/Samurai 3/Paladin 14 work? It doesn’t really come online until like level 8, unfortunately, but there are situations when that wouldn’t matter. Is that just a “no, you’re spread too thin” build, or would it be a viable alternative to pure Paladin or something similar?
Join the Competition of the Finest 'Brews XIX! (Or just spectate and vote, that's cool too. Either way, go there. It's awesome, and it'll be even more awesome if you join.)
I think it would work. I would be tempted to start Warlock and take it to 5 just to get Hex Warrior from the start and also get Extra Attack ASAP. But 5 Hexblades/ 5 Oath of Vengeance/ 3 Samurai seems like it would be a good level 13 build. That is enough for most campaigns and your only short one ASI and the second ASI was only delayed one level.
I don't tend to look at or build Paladins though so take what I say with a hefty grain of salt.
As always your DM is the final arbiter if this build works. I guess it also depends on what kind of game you are looking to play. Are you just looking for maximum damage? Or is this a cool backstory that has been translated into a character?
It's already been stated you are giving up a lot of Barbarian features just to take one feat. The loss of both Reckless Attack and the Rage damage bonus. You can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging, so you lose a lot of the Warlock power.
While advantage is always good, asking your party to give up their action for 'Help' is something you should ask them ahead of time (nicely)... and be ok if they say 'no thank you'. There is a lot of risk excepting advantage to give you a shot, and only a shot, at extra crit damage. But if you have your heart set on it, talk with your DM and see if they are ok with the concept.
Lastly, keep in mind the 'power' of any party is technically an illusion. No matter how min/maxed the players twink their PC's out with, and DM can (and should) adjust the encounters appropriately to give a challenge. A DM can slay a party at any time but with a few extra monsters, hazards, etc. The goal is to have fun. Conversely even a 'weak' combat party can have a perfectly fun adventure crafted for them. D&D is all about having fun, and for many that isn't always about doing the most damage.
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
“ I think it "works," but I don't think you're getting much out of it. The only thing Barbarian seems to be doing for this build is giving you extra crit damage. Every other aspect of the class is being wasted” Is what he actually said. And no, you don’t need 9 levels of barbarian, you literally only need 1 level for rage, or 3 for the subclass allowing you to still get 17 in Warlock. At the end of the day there may be 1 super optimised character build - but if we only did that then everyone would be a Padlock, a Chronogy Wizard or a Coffeelock. Thankfully some people like to play for fun and use other builds. A Hexblade with 3 levels of Totem warrior or Zealot is perfectly viable and has great rp potential. It just won’t be as god mode powerful as a Glory/Hexblade Padlock.
First of all, you keep ascribing genders to people. If you're going to do that, at least look at their profile picture.
Secondly, the brutal criticals are the thing the OP seems to want out of the levels in barbarian. And Saga pointed that out because everything else you can get from barbarian can probably be better served by another class with fewer levels -- some of which will give you features you might actually be able to use. Even brutal criticals aren't that impressive considering you could add to a crit 1d12 for your investment, or 5d6 from a different set of levels. Or 5d8.
Third, pointing out that you can get more upsides and fewer downsides from other classes is answering exactly what the OP was looking for, I think. They ask if the build works, and if it is effective. The answer is "it could be better." If you want to know how good your build is, you certainly will be comparing to the most optimized, and when you make that comparison, features that you have but cannot use will not improve the comparison for your build -- those features are dead features.