So, me and some buds were on the Tavern at the End of the World, and the discord, when we found a bit of an odd rules quirk... It started when we looked at the metallic dragon change shape ability-
'Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.'
If we note, creature type isn't found in those retained statistics. Meaning, because creature type is technically a statistic in the block, that they become the new creature type of humanoid or beast. We then looked into a few more shapechanges, and all of them were similar. The creature type always can change. Now... Lets go back to the example of a dragon, and look a bit closer into what this means, starting with becoming a humanoid. This means they can be targeted by charm/dominate/hold person, and I dont believe the duration would immediately end if they shapeshifted back into a draconic form... Meaning these lower level versions of the spell can effect dragons. In addition, if theyre in draconic form and attacked by a lycanthrope, they could actually be cursed with lycanthropy, and start a strange 'true form' battle, as the true form of the lycanthrope shapeshift is stated to be humanoid form, while in the dragon shapeshift, its considered the dragon form. Similar strange occurrences happen when other abilities that only affect humanoids and/or beasts target the shapeshifted dragon. This also works with an owlin or aarakocra(or any other flying race) polymorphing into a tiny beast, being targeted with Animal Messenger, then shifting back. Give them a bag of holding with the rest of the party in it, and cast air bubble on each. Now you can long rest and regain all those spells(I think), while travelling 50 miles in a day.
Are we missing something, or is that how it technically all works RAW?
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Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
You're not missing anything. A creature's type is included in its statistics, so adopting a new set of statistics includes the type unless you're told otherwise.
Theoretically, this means you could polymorph someone into a beast, then cast animal messenger on them, and they would be forced to travel wherever you wanted them to, with no saving throw whatsoever. Even after the transformation ended, they'd still be bound by the spell.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew:Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Theoretically, this means you could polymorph someone into a beast, then cast animal messenger on them, and they would be forced to travel wherever you wanted them to, with no saving throw whatsoever. Even after the transformation ended, they'd still be bound by the spell.
What a power move! Why yes, I did command a dragon to come tell you your debt is due. I don't think you'd have any issues getting your money, but you may have a VERY angry dragon after you in 24 hours.
Theoretically, this means you could polymorph someone into a beast, then cast animal messenger on them, and they would be forced to travel wherever you wanted them to, with no saving throw whatsoever. Even after the transformation ended, they'd still be bound by the spell.
What a power move! Why yes, I did command a dragon to come tell you your debt is due. I don't think you'd have any issues getting your money, but you may have a VERY angry dragon after you in 24 hours.
By which point you can long rest and do it again
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
Polymorph and mass polymorph cant turn things into undead, but true polymorph can. Of course it could also just turn them permanently into a pebble that you can toss into the sea...
Being polymorphed is in a lot of ways an instant loss.
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
Polymorph and mass polymorph cant turn things into undead, but true polymorph can. Of course it could also just turn them permanently into a pebble that you can toss into the sea...
Being polymorphed is in a lot of ways an instant loss.
Still, this seems pretty broken with the other applications (such as the animal messenger one that I mentioned above, or the fact that you can use dominate person on a shapechanged dragon and have it carry over).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew:Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
Polymorph and mass polymorph cant turn things into undead, but true polymorph can. Of course it could also just turn them permanently into a pebble that you can toss into the sea...
Being polymorphed is in a lot of ways an instant loss.
Still, this seems pretty broken with the other applications (such as the animal messenger one that I mentioned above, or the fact that you can use dominate person on a shapechanged dragon and have it carry over).
True Polymorph is a 9th level spell. All 9th level spells are fairly broken. The best that this combo can do is delay combat for a day. If you use Dominate Person, they get a save every time they take damage as well as at the end of a turn. And they have advantage on the original save if you are already in combat.
Each of these requires a save, and if you are fighting something really powerful, they typically have legendary resistances to just avoid the original True Polymorph. So unless you have multiple casters with True Polymorph (or your DM has not banned Silvery Barbs) this can be very easily avoided.
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
Polymorph and mass polymorph cant turn things into undead, but true polymorph can. Of course it could also just turn them permanently into a pebble that you can toss into the sea...
Being polymorphed is in a lot of ways an instant loss.
Still, this seems pretty broken with the other applications (such as the animal messenger one that I mentioned above, or the fact that you can use dominate person on a shapechanged dragon and have it carry over).
True Polymorph is a 9th level spell. All 9th level spells are fairly broken. The best that this combo can do is delay combat for a day. If you use Dominate Person, they get a save every time they take damage as well as at the end of a turn. And they have advantage on the original save if you are already in combat.
Each of these requires a save, and if you are fighting something really powerful, they typically have legendary resistances to just avoid the original True Polymorph. So unless you have multiple casters with True Polymorph (or your DM has not banned Silvery Barbs) this can be very easily avoided.
TTB refers to them casting dominate person when a metallic dragon has shapeshifted ITSELF into a humanoid, using its own Change Shape, as that still changes the creature type for it. And for Animal Messenger, regular Polymorph works, and will either start to draw out a creature's LRs, or allow you to cast Animal Messenger to make them leave. And not just for one day. It travels for its 50 miles in 24 hours, but the spell states that the creature then returns to where it was before the casting if they didnt find the message recipient you specified(Which can be a 100% fictitious person, who they have 0 chance of finding), and theyd be going back without the speed alteration. Even if the creature did find them, then they have to find you again, and travel back to you without the speed alteration. You can have plenty of time to Long Rest then do it again.
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Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
It also states that the dragon retains its Legendary Resistances. Also, polymorph has no effect on a shapechanger, so they might not be affected at all, depending on how you fall on the 'what counts as a shapechanger' argument.'
So this combo will work for some things, some of the time, but I don't think it'd work nearly as frequently as you'd hope.
I would say that shapechanger is any stat block with the shapechanger tag. Which an ancient gold dragon does not have.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Puzzle:
3 times, I have played level 20 characters. These experiences normally lead my sanity to divide as my other 4 players square up out of annoyance. In addition, 172 people polled by Eris, resident eldritch evil, say their sanity was a fifth of what is was after tracking max level combat with Solanar and Atemos. A while ago, I was rooted in fear after my character was stabbed. But the time was around 8.91 seconds before the end, and I rounded the fight out with a bang.
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So, me and some buds were on the Tavern at the End of the World, and the discord, when we found a bit of an odd rules quirk... It started when we looked at the metallic dragon change shape ability-
'Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon's choice).
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.'
If we note, creature type isn't found in those retained statistics. Meaning, because creature type is technically a statistic in the block, that they become the new creature type of humanoid or beast. We then looked into a few more shapechanges, and all of them were similar. The creature type always can change. Now... Lets go back to the example of a dragon, and look a bit closer into what this means, starting with becoming a humanoid. This means they can be targeted by charm/dominate/hold person, and I dont believe the duration would immediately end if they shapeshifted back into a draconic form... Meaning these lower level versions of the spell can effect dragons. In addition, if theyre in draconic form and attacked by a lycanthrope, they could actually be cursed with lycanthropy, and start a strange 'true form' battle, as the true form of the lycanthrope shapeshift is stated to be humanoid form, while in the dragon shapeshift, its considered the dragon form. Similar strange occurrences happen when other abilities that only affect humanoids and/or beasts target the shapeshifted dragon. This also works with an owlin or aarakocra(or any other flying race) polymorphing into a tiny beast, being targeted with Animal Messenger, then shifting back. Give them a bag of holding with the rest of the party in it, and cast air bubble on each. Now you can long rest and regain all those spells(I think), while travelling 50 miles in a day.
Are we missing something, or is that how it technically all works RAW?
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
You're not missing anything. A creature's type is included in its statistics, so adopting a new set of statistics includes the type unless you're told otherwise.
Theoretically, this means you could polymorph someone into a beast, then cast animal messenger on them, and they would be forced to travel wherever you wanted them to, with no saving throw whatsoever. Even after the transformation ended, they'd still be bound by the spell.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew: Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
What a power move! Why yes, I did command a dragon to come tell you your debt is due. I don't think you'd have any issues getting your money, but you may have a VERY angry dragon after you in 24 hours.
By which point you can long rest and do it again
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
This is Brilliant! I'm writing this down for future use!
So, hypothetically, if a cleric and a wizard of sufficient level encounter anything at all - they could turn it into an undead of low enough CR (eg. a skeleton warrior) and the cleric could use Turn Undead on it. ‘Destroying’ the undead. Which implies no damage at all.
This gets worse with mass polymorph. A group of enemies simultaneously ‘destroyed’ after being turned into skeletal warriors.
You could also carry over vulnerabilities - a creature with low hp (such as the vegepygmy) could be hit with something it is vulnerable to - and then the damage is carried over, not dealt to the new form. So hypothetically, any resistances, immunities or lack of vulnerabilities would be ignored.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Miley Cyrus music should be outlawed by the Geneva Convention.
Polymorph and mass polymorph cant turn things into undead, but true polymorph can. Of course it could also just turn them permanently into a pebble that you can toss into the sea...
Being polymorphed is in a lot of ways an instant loss.
Still, this seems pretty broken with the other applications (such as the animal messenger one that I mentioned above, or the fact that you can use dominate person on a shapechanged dragon and have it carry over).
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew: Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
True Polymorph is a 9th level spell. All 9th level spells are fairly broken. The best that this combo can do is delay combat for a day. If you use Dominate Person, they get a save every time they take damage as well as at the end of a turn. And they have advantage on the original save if you are already in combat.
Each of these requires a save, and if you are fighting something really powerful, they typically have legendary resistances to just avoid the original True Polymorph. So unless you have multiple casters with True Polymorph (or your DM has not banned Silvery Barbs) this can be very easily avoided.
TTB refers to them casting dominate person when a metallic dragon has shapeshifted ITSELF into a humanoid, using its own Change Shape, as that still changes the creature type for it. And for Animal Messenger, regular Polymorph works, and will either start to draw out a creature's LRs, or allow you to cast Animal Messenger to make them leave. And not just for one day. It travels for its 50 miles in 24 hours, but the spell states that the creature then returns to where it was before the casting if they didnt find the message recipient you specified(Which can be a 100% fictitious person, who they have 0 chance of finding), and theyd be going back without the speed alteration. Even if the creature did find them, then they have to find you again, and travel back to you without the speed alteration. You can have plenty of time to Long Rest then do it again.
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
It also states that the dragon retains its Legendary Resistances. Also, polymorph has no effect on a shapechanger, so they might not be affected at all, depending on how you fall on the 'what counts as a shapechanger' argument.'
So this combo will work for some things, some of the time, but I don't think it'd work nearly as frequently as you'd hope.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
I would say that shapechanger is any stat block with the shapechanger tag. Which an ancient gold dragon does not have.
Puzzle:
3 times, I have played level 20 characters. These experiences normally lead my sanity to divide as my other 4 players square up out of annoyance. In addition, 172 people polled by Eris, resident eldritch evil, say their sanity was a fifth of what is was after tracking max level combat with Solanar and Atemos. A while ago, I was rooted in fear after my character was stabbed. But the time was around 8.91 seconds before the end, and I rounded the fight out with a bang.