Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.
First scenario:
An assassin player sneaks up to a goblin, the player rolls a 15 on stealth and passes the goblins passive perception of 9, but the player rolls lower initiative than the goblin.
The goblin is only surprised until it's turn in the initiative order, after that he isn't surprised anymore, so the player will not get the guaranteed critical hit, but still gets advantage because he is hidden.
Am I right?
Second scenario:
Again the assassin player sneaks up to a goblin, this time the player passes the stealth check and rolls higher initiative. It's the players turn and he scores a hit against the goblin, he gets the guaranteed critical hit.
On the next round the goblin isn't surprised anymore, but he only had it's empty surprise turn.
Does the player still get advantage on it's second turn, or does the empty surprise turn already count as a "turn in combat"?
Wondering since the critical hit and advantage have different descriptions for it's conditions, "hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet" and "against a creature that is surprised", but would somehow end up to be the same condition, if the surprise turn is counted as a turn:
Surprise
...
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends...
Or do they only mean the turn in the initiative order of this combat encounter, but not an actual combat turn, since the goblin wasn't allowed to do anything?
First scenario... you are correct, the player still has Advantage from stealth, but not the auto-critical from Assassinate.
In the second scenario... the creature still took its Turn while it was surprised. It was unable to move or take an action, but it still had its turn and no longer qualifies for the Assassinate features auto-advantage.
So the only difference between the auto-crit and auto-advantage is, that if the assassin has failed the stealth check, but has higher initiative than the enemy, he still get the auto-advantage?
So the only difference between the auto-crit and auto-advantage is, that if the assassin has failed the stealth check, but has higher initiative than the enemy, he still get the auto-advantage?
Yes, without successfully surprising the enemy, an Assassin still gets auto-advantage against anyone they beat in initiative on the first round of combat. Even if they're staring right at you the whole time you still get advantage without needing to make any additional rolls. This is why the Alert feat is very popular with Assassin players, since it gives you an additional +5 to your Initiative. With 20 DEX that gets you a +10 on initiative.
Thanks for the answer, means you have to pass three checks to get the crit, Stealth, Initiative and Hit.
I think the assassin is the worst rogue subclass I've seen. :D
It's kind of a gimmick class, but it's a strong gimmick. It's a popular 3-level dip because the Assassinate feature stacks with anything that has an attack roll, including spells.
Thanks for the answer, means you have to pass three checks to get the crit, Stealth, Initiative and Hit.
I think the assassin is the worst rogue subclass I've seen. :D
I don't think it's the worst; an automatic first round critical hit can be very powerful, but it requires you to put in some effort to get surprise with a decent initiative, and you may need to discuss with your DM to make sure they're using the surprise rules properly. Its main problem is that surprise and stealth in general are very poorly understood parts of the rules (and with good reason, the stealth rules are scattered all over the place in a very confusing way).
It does look like Wizards are well aware of this at least from the OneD&D previews as there's a much more simplified version of hiding (with a clear "hidden" condition). We don't know yet if they're going to overhaul assassin or not as they've only previewed Thief so far and haven't mentioned what the upcoming sub-classes are.
the Alert feat is very popular with Assassin players, since it gives you an additional +5 to your Initiative. With 20 DEX that gets you a +10 on initiative.
Harengon can also give you a further +proficiency for a potential +16 at 17th-level.
With Expertise and Reliable Talent in Stealth, pick up booming blade and hex using Magic Initiate (Warlock), and you can merrily be dropping 8d8 + 22d6 + DEX damage on a first round hit (assuming 2d8 from a rapier). That's similar damage to a 9th-level meteor swarm, minus the chance to save against it (meaning no legendary resistance to block it). And that's if you go melee, you can alternatively just drop 6d8 and do it from safely from range with a bow and just re-Hide for next round.
You're definitely building to purposefully get the most out of it; or it's accidentally enforcing that you shouldn't be a lazy assassin. 😉
Thanks for the answer, means you have to pass three checks to get the crit, Stealth, Initiative and Hit.
I think the assassin is the worst rogue subclass I've seen. :D
I partly agree. Getting surprise according to RAW is a team effort and far from guaranteed. But almost no DM I've talked to runs surprise RAW, so could still be viable.
It is definitely a strong pick for a solo campaign or for a rogue that spends a lot of time away from party.
Pass without trace basically guarantees surprise. Assassin plays very well with gloom stalker.
We play according to RAW... as soon as someone reads the rules.
I just find that those are too many conditions for too less, other rogue subclasses can achieve two sneak attacks per round, which is the damage of the assassin, but every round.
I just find that those are too many conditions for too less, other rogue subclasses can achieve two sneak attacks per round, which is the damage of the assassin, but every round.
How are you getting two per round? The only ways to really do that are to work with a party member like an Order Cleric or a Battle Master Fighter with Commander's Strike, to allow you to trigger an attack on another turn. But the assassin has the exact same access to that ability, plus if it happens early enough they can still benefit from Assassinate either to get advantage or even potentially two auto-critical sneak attacks in the first round.
An assassin would need the help of other party members to do that and the party member would need to waste their action to help them. With AT or some multiclassing you can do it by yourself.
With AT or some multiclassing you can do it by yourself.
Again, how? Arcane Tricksters don't have any special way to do this solo that I'm aware of. The main benefit of Arcane Trickster is versatility and access to booming blade or green-flame blade without needing to use a feat or multiclass. You'll eventually gain the ability to distract using mage hand as a bonus action to gain advantage, which is great but it's no reaction attack?
There aren't a lot of ways to get an attack in someone else's turn without help, and most of those require weapons that don't work with Sneak Attack. Only good option I can think of offhand would be to take levels in Fighter so you can attack on your own turn, then use Action Surge to Ready a second attack as a reaction to trigger during an enemy turn. You can double down and go Battle Master for its reaction attacks (Brace and Riposte) to do this multiple times. But the Assassin can just as easily multiclass to do this as any other sub-class, and has the added benefit of potentially triggering Assassinate multiple times in the first round.
Assassin's problem is the clunky way that Surprise works, and the fact that almost nobody runs it properly (if at all). There's no need to invent problems it doesn't have; run properly it's fine, but it could be better (and hopefully will be in OneD&D if it makes a return).
Assassin would likely be better if the surprise mechanic was easier to attain in practice.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Basically, any creature that doesn't notice a threat is surprised. However, this means that the entire party requires stealth checks above the opponents passive perception to prevent the opponent from noticing any threat. Noticing anyone prevents surprise. Individual opponents might or might not be surprised by the entire party but if they notice anyone, the assassin loses out since there is no surprise for that creature. It makes surprise actually quite difficult to attain in practice.
P.S. I also don't know of any way a rogue can get two sneak attacks in one turn except by setting up an off turn sneak attack. The only rogue I know of which can do this semi-reliably is an arcane trickster rogue casting haste, using the haste attack for sneak attack on their turn and then using their regular action to use the ready action to hold an attack for someone elses turn with a trigger that gives them another sneak attack.
With AT or some multiclassing you can do it by yourself.
Again, how? Arcane Tricksters don't have any special way to do this solo that I'm aware of. The main benefit of Arcane Trickster is versatility and access to booming blade or green-flame blade without needing to use a feat or multiclass. You'll eventually gain the ability to distract using mage hand as a bonus action to gain advantage, which is great but it's no reaction attack?
There aren't a lot of ways to get an attack in someone else's turn without help, and most of those require weapons that don't work with Sneak Attack. Only good option I can think of offhand would be to take levels in Fighter so you can attack on your own turn, then use Action Surge to Ready a second attack as a reaction to trigger during an enemy turn. You can double down and go Battle Master for its reaction attacks (Brace and Riposte) to do this multiple times. But the Assassin can just as easily multiclass to do this as any other sub-class, and has the added benefit of potentially triggering Assassinate multiple times in the first round.
Assassin's problem is the clunky way that Surprise works, and the fact that almost nobody runs it properly (if at all). There's no need to invent problems it doesn't have; run properly it's fine, but it could be better (and hopefully will be in OneD&D if it makes a return).
The only semi-reliable way I know of for this is:
Level 13 arcane trickster rogue using haste. Sneak attacks using the haste action and then uses their regular action for the ready action to make a second attack on another turn during the round with a trigger that will also allow for sneak attack.
Other than that, a rogue needs haste cast on them, or a battlemaster using commander's strike, or ... (not sure :) ).
Except the possibility of succeeding on all of those 3 checks is very high (80% and higher, with the Alert Feat). As with any rogue class, check with your DM on how they handle Stealth obviously, because some DMs often decide that Stealth just wont work. If they do allow it and the campaign allows for it, then the probabilities are actually quite good.
Has nobody considered that Wlasiuk was talking about Thief, which allows you to take two turns the first round of combat (and therefore two sneak attacks)?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Except the possibility of succeeding on all of those 3 checks is very high (80% and higher, with the Alert Feat). As with any rogue class, check with your DM on how they handle Stealth obviously, because some DMs often decide that Stealth just wont work. If they do allow it and the campaign allows for it, then the probabilities are actually quite good.
That spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration the quadruple (or more) disadvantage of the stealth check for the entire party if not alone. RAW surprise is very unlikely for groups that aren't ALL high stealth.
Has nobody considered that Wlasiuk was talking about Thief, which allows you to take two turns the first round of combat (and therefore two sneak attacks)?
Or the scout that can make a sneak attack as a bonus action at level 17. The phantom gets an extra half sneak attack at level 3.
Has nobody considered that Wlasiuk was talking about Thief, which allows you to take two turns the first round of combat (and therefore two sneak attacks)?
This is a 17th-level feature, a level most campaigns never make it to. So Thief cancompete after 14 levels of only really having Fast Hands, which is super useful but doesn't exactly seem like it trounces Assassin, not when Assassinate still either grants advantage or criticals automatically, and has been since 3rd-level. Two attempts at Sneak Attack are great, but you still need advantage or an adjacent ally, whereas the Assassin doesn't need either (grants its own advantage for Sneak Attack on its automatic critical hit).
Same is true of the Scout's bonus action Sneak Attack; it's a great feature, but again not until 17th-level and it's still only a regular Sneak Attack, and it must be against a different target so you can't double up your damage to take out a key target faster (the goal of an assassin).
Plus the Assassin at 17th-level already has had Assassinate for 14 levels, and gains Death Strike; not my favourite feature but it can double damage again if the target fails a Constitution save. Not great for legendary bosses, but not bad for pretty much guaranteeing a one-shot kill on someone you really need dead, because you're potentially doing 200 or so damage in a single (automatic) hit.
I didn't say that it was a fair comparison. It was a response to Wlasiuk saying that other subclasses could get two sneak attacks in a single round and you responding with
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Except the possibility of succeeding on all of those 3 checks is very high (80% and higher, with the Alert Feat). As with any rogue class, check with your DM on how they handle Stealth obviously, because some DMs often decide that Stealth just wont work. If they do allow it and the campaign allows for it, then the probabilities are actually quite good.
That spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration the quadruple (or more) disadvantage of the stealth check for the entire party if not alone. RAW surprise is very unlikely for groups that aren't ALL high stealth.
This is why I said you need to chat with your DM first - RAW, your party can lag behind your assassin far enough so they don't have to make sneak checks so you can consistently get sneak attacks and/or surprise. Any rogue (not just assassin) should have a chat with the DM first to clarify stealth and surprise, because if the DM is not amenable to playing with hearing distances, stealth, and surprise, it'll ruin every rogue's day, not just the assassin.
First scenario:
An assassin player sneaks up to a goblin, the player rolls a 15 on stealth and passes the goblins passive perception of 9, but the player rolls lower initiative than the goblin.
The goblin is only surprised until it's turn in the initiative order, after that he isn't surprised anymore, so the player will not get the guaranteed critical hit, but still gets advantage because he is hidden.
Am I right?
Second scenario:
Again the assassin player sneaks up to a goblin, this time the player passes the stealth check and rolls higher initiative. It's the players turn and he scores a hit against the goblin, he gets the guaranteed critical hit.
On the next round the goblin isn't surprised anymore, but he only had it's empty surprise turn.
Does the player still get advantage on it's second turn, or does the empty surprise turn already count as a "turn in combat"?
Wondering since the critical hit and advantage have different descriptions for it's conditions, "hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet" and "against a creature that is surprised", but would somehow end up to be the same condition, if the surprise turn is counted as a turn:
Or do they only mean the turn in the initiative order of this combat encounter, but not an actual combat turn, since the goblin wasn't allowed to do anything?
First scenario... you are correct, the player still has Advantage from stealth, but not the auto-critical from Assassinate.
In the second scenario... the creature still took its Turn while it was surprised. It was unable to move or take an action, but it still had its turn and no longer qualifies for the Assassinate features auto-advantage.
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So the only difference between the auto-crit and auto-advantage is, that if the assassin has failed the stealth check, but has higher initiative than the enemy, he still get the auto-advantage?
Yes, without successfully surprising the enemy, an Assassin still gets auto-advantage against anyone they beat in initiative on the first round of combat. Even if they're staring right at you the whole time you still get advantage without needing to make any additional rolls. This is why the Alert feat is very popular with Assassin players, since it gives you an additional +5 to your Initiative. With 20 DEX that gets you a +10 on initiative.
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Thanks for the answer, means you have to pass three checks to get the crit, Stealth, Initiative and Hit.
I think the assassin is the worst rogue subclass I've seen. :D
It's kind of a gimmick class, but it's a strong gimmick. It's a popular 3-level dip because the Assassinate feature stacks with anything that has an attack roll, including spells.
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I don't think it's the worst; an automatic first round critical hit can be very powerful, but it requires you to put in some effort to get surprise with a decent initiative, and you may need to discuss with your DM to make sure they're using the surprise rules properly. Its main problem is that surprise and stealth in general are very poorly understood parts of the rules (and with good reason, the stealth rules are scattered all over the place in a very confusing way).
It does look like Wizards are well aware of this at least from the OneD&D previews as there's a much more simplified version of hiding (with a clear "hidden" condition). We don't know yet if they're going to overhaul assassin or not as they've only previewed Thief so far and haven't mentioned what the upcoming sub-classes are.
Harengon can also give you a further +proficiency for a potential +16 at 17th-level.
With Expertise and Reliable Talent in Stealth, pick up booming blade and hex using Magic Initiate (Warlock), and you can merrily be dropping 8d8 + 22d6 + DEX damage on a first round hit (assuming 2d8 from a rapier). That's similar damage to a 9th-level meteor swarm, minus the chance to save against it (meaning no legendary resistance to block it). And that's if you go melee, you can alternatively just drop 6d8 and do it from safely from range with a bow and just re-Hide for next round.
You're definitely building to purposefully get the most out of it; or it's accidentally enforcing that you shouldn't be a lazy assassin. 😉
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I partly agree. Getting surprise according to RAW is a team effort and far from guaranteed. But almost no DM I've talked to runs surprise RAW, so could still be viable.
It is definitely a strong pick for a solo campaign or for a rogue that spends a lot of time away from party.
Pass without trace basically guarantees surprise. Assassin plays very well with gloom stalker.
We play according to RAW... as soon as someone reads the rules.
I just find that those are too many conditions for too less, other rogue subclasses can achieve two sneak attacks per round, which is the damage of the assassin, but every round.
How are you getting two per round? The only ways to really do that are to work with a party member like an Order Cleric or a Battle Master Fighter with Commander's Strike, to allow you to trigger an attack on another turn. But the assassin has the exact same access to that ability, plus if it happens early enough they can still benefit from Assassinate either to get advantage or even potentially two auto-critical sneak attacks in the first round.
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An assassin would need the help of other party members to do that and the party member would need to waste their action to help them. With AT or some multiclassing you can do it by yourself.
Again, how? Arcane Tricksters don't have any special way to do this solo that I'm aware of. The main benefit of Arcane Trickster is versatility and access to booming blade or green-flame blade without needing to use a feat or multiclass. You'll eventually gain the ability to distract using mage hand as a bonus action to gain advantage, which is great but it's no reaction attack?
There aren't a lot of ways to get an attack in someone else's turn without help, and most of those require weapons that don't work with Sneak Attack. Only good option I can think of offhand would be to take levels in Fighter so you can attack on your own turn, then use Action Surge to Ready a second attack as a reaction to trigger during an enemy turn. You can double down and go Battle Master for its reaction attacks (Brace and Riposte) to do this multiple times. But the Assassin can just as easily multiclass to do this as any other sub-class, and has the added benefit of potentially triggering Assassinate multiple times in the first round.
Assassin's problem is the clunky way that Surprise works, and the fact that almost nobody runs it properly (if at all). There's no need to invent problems it doesn't have; run properly it's fine, but it could be better (and hopefully will be in OneD&D if it makes a return).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
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Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Assassin would likely be better if the surprise mechanic was easier to attain in practice.
"The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter."
Basically, any creature that doesn't notice a threat is surprised. However, this means that the entire party requires stealth checks above the opponents passive perception to prevent the opponent from noticing any threat. Noticing anyone prevents surprise. Individual opponents might or might not be surprised by the entire party but if they notice anyone, the assassin loses out since there is no surprise for that creature. It makes surprise actually quite difficult to attain in practice.
P.S. I also don't know of any way a rogue can get two sneak attacks in one turn except by setting up an off turn sneak attack. The only rogue I know of which can do this semi-reliably is an arcane trickster rogue casting haste, using the haste attack for sneak attack on their turn and then using their regular action to use the ready action to hold an attack for someone elses turn with a trigger that gives them another sneak attack.
That requires a level 13 arcane trickster rogue.
The only semi-reliable way I know of for this is:
Level 13 arcane trickster rogue using haste. Sneak attacks using the haste action and then uses their regular action for the ready action to make a second attack on another turn during the round with a trigger that will also allow for sneak attack.
Other than that, a rogue needs haste cast on them, or a battlemaster using commander's strike, or ... (not sure :) ).
Except the possibility of succeeding on all of those 3 checks is very high (80% and higher, with the Alert Feat). As with any rogue class, check with your DM on how they handle Stealth obviously, because some DMs often decide that Stealth just wont work. If they do allow it and the campaign allows for it, then the probabilities are actually quite good.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EQTIdJ2QFpqtgT-OuVY5tFmOmqGO2IvPEHJQDT64R0k/edit?usp=sharing
Has nobody considered that Wlasiuk was talking about Thief, which allows you to take two turns the first round of combat (and therefore two sneak attacks)?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
That spreadsheet doesn't take into consideration the quadruple (or more) disadvantage of the stealth check for the entire party if not alone. RAW surprise is very unlikely for groups that aren't ALL high stealth.
Or the scout that can make a sneak attack as a bonus action at level 17. The phantom gets an extra half sneak attack at level 3.
This is a 17th-level feature, a level most campaigns never make it to. So Thief can compete after 14 levels of only really having Fast Hands, which is super useful but doesn't exactly seem like it trounces Assassin, not when Assassinate still either grants advantage or criticals automatically, and has been since 3rd-level. Two attempts at Sneak Attack are great, but you still need advantage or an adjacent ally, whereas the Assassin doesn't need either (grants its own advantage for Sneak Attack on its automatic critical hit).
Same is true of the Scout's bonus action Sneak Attack; it's a great feature, but again not until 17th-level and it's still only a regular Sneak Attack, and it must be against a different target so you can't double up your damage to take out a key target faster (the goal of an assassin).
Plus the Assassin at 17th-level already has had Assassinate for 14 levels, and gains Death Strike; not my favourite feature but it can double damage again if the target fails a Constitution save. Not great for legendary bosses, but not bad for pretty much guaranteeing a one-shot kill on someone you really need dead, because you're potentially doing 200 or so damage in a single (automatic) hit.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I didn't say that it was a fair comparison. It was a response to Wlasiuk saying that other subclasses could get two sneak attacks in a single round and you responding with
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
This is why I said you need to chat with your DM first - RAW, your party can lag behind your assassin far enough so they don't have to make sneak checks so you can consistently get sneak attacks and/or surprise. Any rogue (not just assassin) should have a chat with the DM first to clarify stealth and surprise, because if the DM is not amenable to playing with hearing distances, stealth, and surprise, it'll ruin every rogue's day, not just the assassin.