It could be helpful to organize them by stat, rather than class alphabetically:
STR, DEX (Monk, Ranger) STR, CON (Barbarian, Fighter) STR, INT STR, WIS STR, CHA
DEX, CON DEX, INT (Rogue, Blood Hunter) DEX, WIS DEX, CHA (Bard)
CON, INT (Artificer) CON, WIS CON, CHA (Sorcerer)
INT, WIS (Druid, Wizard) INT, CHA
WIS, CHA (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock)
So, you'll notice that there are a lot of missing combinations for saving throws, and many classes share the same combination. 5 classes stack mental stats, 4 classes stack physical stats, and 5 classes mix mental and physical.
INT and CHA are somewhat antithetical, as are DEX and CON, so they aren't likely to show up on the same character often, but that may change with time.
Edit: Interestingly, the combination that would bring the most balance to the list's diversity would be STR, WIS.
Dex, Con, and Wis are significantly better than Str, Int, and Cha. Classes will always give one from the first group and one from the second, never two from either one.
Dex, Con, and Wis are significantly better than Str, Int, and Cha. Classes will always give one from the first group and one from the second, never two from either one.
This :)
If you want to organize a list - do it by primary save (dex, con, wis) and secondary save (str, int, cha)
DEX is mostly AoE damage but there are a lot of those, CON has a number of applications including both AoE and debilitating effects while WIS covers most mind affecting spells.
To borrow Memnosyne's list:
DEX, STR (Monk, Ranger)
DEX, INT (Rogue, Blood Hunter)
DEX, CHA (Bard)
CON, INT (Artificer)
CON, CHA (Sorcerer)
CON, STR (Barbarian, Fighter)
WIS, CHA (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock)
WIS,INT (Druid Wizard)
WIS, STR
The only save combination missing is Wis, Str as Memnosyne mentioned. Every other combination combines primary with primary or secondary with secondary - the first is too strong while the second too weak.
To all your points the 1,2 layout, makes sense I suppose for balance reasons. I just wanted to do a Goblin run with a halfling in Solasta and then I ran into the ST of the Goblin Cutthroat and the gears in my head stopped. The closest is a Rogue but I think I'll go with Barbarian for the lols of using rage to "go Goblin Mode."
Though it isn't specified in the rules, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom are "common" saving throws, meaning that they occur far more frequently than the other three, Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma, which are "rare" saving throws. Each class is proficient with one "common" save, and one "rare" save. A class with proficiency in both Dexterity and Constitution saving throws may be too powerful, as both of those saves are very, very common.
I'd like to see a class that has proficiency with Strength and Wisdom, seeing as every other combination of common and rare saves is already taken.
Dex, Con, and Wis are significantly better than Str, Int, and Cha. Classes will always give one from the first group and one from the second, never two from either one.
IMO they need to rebalance this in 6e so it isn't so lopsided. Have effects actually target the correct saves they're supposed to.
Forced movement/physical damage > Str, AOEs > Dex, Health status effects > Con, Mental debilitation/psychic damage > Int, Illusions and misdirection > Wis, Charms/compulsions and hedges > Cha.
Then just make sure there is a sufficient number of enemy abilities that actually use them.
The whole good save/weak save dichotomy is an artifact of them misclassifying saves and not utilizing many abilities that target some vs others. And even how they artificially rolled some stuff that should be str/int saves into skill contests instead.
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I got quotes!
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I'm noticing an odd hole in the class list.
Artificer: CON, INT
Barbarian: STR, CON
Bard: DEX, CHA
Cleric: WIS, CHA
Druid: INT, WIS
Fighter: STR, CON
Monk: STR, DEX
Paladin: WIS, CHA
Ranger: STR, DEX
Rogue: DEX, INT
Sorcerer: CON, CHA
Warlock: WIS, CHA
Wizard: INT, WIS
Is there some missing class somewhere in the deeplore that is DEX,CON?
It could be helpful to organize them by stat, rather than class alphabetically:
STR, DEX (Monk, Ranger)
STR, CON (Barbarian, Fighter)
STR, INT
STR, WIS
STR, CHA
DEX, CON
DEX, INT (Rogue, Blood Hunter)
DEX, WIS
DEX, CHA (Bard)
CON, INT (Artificer)
CON, WIS
CON, CHA (Sorcerer)
INT, WIS (Druid, Wizard)
INT, CHA
WIS, CHA (Cleric, Paladin, Warlock)
So, you'll notice that there are a lot of missing combinations for saving throws, and many classes share the same combination. 5 classes stack mental stats, 4 classes stack physical stats, and 5 classes mix mental and physical.
INT and CHA are somewhat antithetical, as are DEX and CON, so they aren't likely to show up on the same character often, but that may change with time.
Edit: Interestingly, the combination that would bring the most balance to the list's diversity would be STR, WIS.
Dex, Con, and Wis are significantly better than Str, Int, and Cha. Classes will always give one from the first group and one from the second, never two from either one.
Each class only has 2 stat perks at level one.
There are 14 possible combinations of stats and only 13 classes.
Perhaps someday they will create a new class that is Dex Con
There are four matchups that are not used 2 or more times.
Sorcerer Constitution Charisma
Artificer Constitution Intelligence
Bard Dexterity Charisma
Rogue Dexterity Intelligence
This :)
If you want to organize a list - do it by primary save (dex, con, wis) and secondary save (str, int, cha)
DEX is mostly AoE damage but there are a lot of those, CON has a number of applications including both AoE and debilitating effects while WIS covers most mind affecting spells.
To borrow Memnosyne's list:
The only save combination missing is Wis, Str as Memnosyne mentioned. Every other combination combines primary with primary or secondary with secondary - the first is too strong while the second too weak.
To all your points the 1,2 layout, makes sense I suppose for balance reasons. I just wanted to do a Goblin run with a halfling in Solasta and then I ran into the ST of the Goblin Cutthroat and the gears in my head stopped. The closest is a Rogue but I think I'll go with Barbarian for the lols of using rage to "go Goblin Mode."
Goblin Cutthroat
DEX +6
CON +5
Orc Beastmaster has that as well
DEX +5
CON +5
https://solastacrownofthemagister.wiki.fextralife.com/Enemies
You can always take the Resilient feat to bolster your Saving Throws. It's not uncommon for DMs to hand out a free feat at 1st level.
Though it isn't specified in the rules, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom are "common" saving throws, meaning that they occur far more frequently than the other three, Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma, which are "rare" saving throws. Each class is proficient with one "common" save, and one "rare" save. A class with proficiency in both Dexterity and Constitution saving throws may be too powerful, as both of those saves are very, very common.
I'd like to see a class that has proficiency with Strength and Wisdom, seeing as every other combination of common and rare saves is already taken.
[REDACTED]
IMO they need to rebalance this in 6e so it isn't so lopsided. Have effects actually target the correct saves they're supposed to.
Forced movement/physical damage > Str, AOEs > Dex, Health status effects > Con, Mental debilitation/psychic damage > Int, Illusions and misdirection > Wis, Charms/compulsions and hedges > Cha.
Then just make sure there is a sufficient number of enemy abilities that actually use them.
The whole good save/weak save dichotomy is an artifact of them misclassifying saves and not utilizing many abilities that target some vs others. And even how they artificially rolled some stuff that should be str/int saves into skill contests instead.
I got quotes!