I always used to roll 3d4+3 for Magic Missile damage until I found out that the RAW intended the damage roll to be 1d4+1, and depending on what level slot you use to cast the spell will determine the number of missiles you have that do that damage.
It makes me wonder how many are doing it the 'old way' and how many have switched to the new way.
I’ve seen Crawford’s tweet as well. Since you tagged the spell in your post, I took another look at the description. I really don’t see anything that specifically says the three darts all have to do the same damage. Nor does it say they don’t.
I agree. It's left vague enough to roll for each dart, or just roll once for all darts. Some people quote the rule on page 196 of the PHB. Damage Rolls, the last paragraph:
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
This seems like it refers to AoEs but it doesn't say just AoEs, and the magic missiles all strike at the same time (The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.)
I guess in the end it always comes down to how each DM will rule on it in their game. Maybe having a talk with them beforehand to iron out such details would be best.
Personally, I don't see that it matters that much but at my table we roll 1d4+1 for each missile (so 3d4+3 as a 1st level spell), just like we roll 2d6 for each ray of scorching ray. We tend to justify this as a high damage roll hits a particularly vulnerable spot and a low damage roll hits a better protected spot.
My group's rule of thumb for damage is for an indiscriminate area of effect (e.g. burning hands or fireball) roll once and apply uniformly to all targets, for spells with precise targetable effects (inc. magic missile) roll for each projectile/effect.
So he says there the RAW is that it is one damage roll. And RAI is that it doesn't matter. But some have wondered if the Evoker Wizard's ability, Empowered Evocation applies once to the overall damage or to each dart... perhaps this link helps answer that:
Put on your tinfoil hats everyone. We're going for a ride.
After having read over this again, you could make the argument that nothing in that entire exchange referred to whether or not you make a damage roll per missile or one roll that applies to all missile equally. When Jeremy Crawford says, "Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once." I think he was referring to the spell's interaction with Empowered Evocation and that you only apply the Empowered Evocation damage boost to one damage roll. I would cite Mike Mearls' tweet on Empowered Evocation as evidence of what Jeremy was referring to. Going back to the fireball example from Jeremy's tweet, I don't know if it even applies to magic missile because each fireball spell is a single fireball versus multiple magic missiles from a single casting.
I'm not sure that when Jeremy said "one damage roll" he was referring to damage per missile at all. I maintain that RAW is open to interpretation unless there is further errata I'm unaware of.
I think he was referring to the one damage roll mentioned in the magic missile spell... 1d4+1.
Just like it mentions one damage roll in the fireball spell 8d6. Nothing in the fireball spell says you don't roll 8d6 for each creature caught in the AoE, getting a different result for each one. The rules found outside the spell mention it is one damage roll (but that can apply equally to fireball or magic missile).
It could also be argued that the 'target' referred to in Mearls tweet was the spell damage roll and not the creature, sine Empowered Evocation affects damage rolls and not creatures. So if you cast a spell like Scorching Ray where you roll separately for each of the 3 attacks then you only add the bonus from Empowered Evocation to one of the Ray's damage rolls. But with Magic Missile you apply Empowered Evocation to it's one damage roll (1d4+1) and then have each missile hit whatever they're going to hit.
Usually I imagine the players would prefer to roll 8d4+8 rather than 8(1d4+1). The prospect of doing 16 damage with a level 6 spell is off-putting, however in the case of empowered spell the later is obviously better. I imagine my few sorcerers will take that option. But I'll leave it to the players to decide for their own spells, rather than upsetting everyone's apple carts.
scenario 1. If a 10th level wizard used a 5th level slot to have 7 missiles and rolled 7d4+7... +5 (INT mod for Empowered Evocation) and got all 4's on the roll, his max damage would be 40.
scenario 2. But if the same 10th level wizard used a 5th level slot to have 7 missiles and rolled 1d4+1+5 (INT mod for Empowered Evocation) and got a 1 on his damage roll, his minimum damage would be 49.
The average from scenario 1 would be 29 or 30 and average from scenario 2 would be 56 or 63. (rough ballpark as I used 2 or 3 for the averages of 1d4)
in scenario 1 you only add the Empowered Evocation once to the total of all the d4's you roll... and in scenario 2 you add it once to the single d4 roll and multiply that total by the number of missiles
The standard rules according to the developers are in favor of the 49 to 70 damage magic missiles. Any DM is free to homebrew rule it down to something less. They can also say that fireball only does 5d6 damage (like it did back in 2nd edition), but why not leave the rules the way they are meant to be and have the wizard have a really cool magic missile.
Personally, I don't see that it matters that much but at my table we roll 1d4+1 for each missile (so 3d4+3 as a 1st level spell), just like we roll 2d6 for each ray of scorching ray. We tend to justify this as a high damage roll hits a particularly vulnerable spot and a low damage roll hits a better protected spot.
My group's rule of thumb for damage is for an indiscriminate area of effect (e.g. burning hands or fireball) roll once and apply uniformly to all targets, for spells with precise targetable effects (inc. magic missile) roll for each projectile/effect.
This is exactly how I view it. Area effect means roll damage once; targeted effect means roll for each "missile."
It's much more powerful than other spells of the same level, and has no hit roll. I'd rule that while only one roll is necessary only one dart applies the additional damage as it would be with Scorching Ray. This is very likely to be the intent.
Scorching Ray is otherwise the most comparable and potent spell for single target damage. It can deal 6(2d6)+5=47 damage, but requires successful attack rolls, compared to 7(1d4+6)=60 damage with no roll is not likely intended.
Other comparisons: Disintegrate using a high level spell (6th level spells and higher incur restrictions on spell regeneration and storage and you only get one slot) on hit does 10(d6)+40=75 damage.
Agonizing Eldritch Blast with Hex, ever popular, on hit deals 2(2d6+5)=24 damage (or 36 at level 11)
You could compare it to AoEs where you could do absurd damage to 7 individual targets. With evocation you could easily out strip MM with Burning Hands even at level-1, but spreading that damage over 7 targets means you won't be killing anything that's intended to be a challenge.
I would actually argue that Scorching Ray states that you make a ranged attack for each, so each ray is intended to be a separate attack with it's own roll and damage. But all the magic missiles strike at once even against multiple targets (similar to an AoE). Another interesting note is that Magic Missile is not an attack (as an attack requires a d20 attack roll... check pages 193-194 of the PHB.). And the Eldritch Blast spell when using the Agonizing Blast Invocation actually supports the argument for magic missile doing the higher amounts of damage as the Agonizing Blast allows for each blast to have the ability modifier added (1d10 from blast + 1d6 from Hex + 5 from ability modifier), and that goes for each blast (2 blasts at 5th level, 3 blasts at 11th level, and 4 blasts at 17th level). That's an average of 28 for 2 blasts, 42 for 3 blasts, and 56 for 4 blasts... all from a cantrip/1st level spell/invocation combo.
Remember not all wizards can do the extra damage with magic missile, only Evocation wizards of 10th level or higher. And Evocation wizards are meant to be all about the damage spells and being a bit OP. Look at their 2nd level ability Sculpt Spells, which allows them to protect allies from damage within a Fireball ... c'mon, does that make any sense. No! But it's taken in stride because it's magic and that's something cool for Evocation wizards to do.
Ultimately it's left to the DM and players to work out among themselves for each game, most if not all of the rules are left open to interpretation so that each group can put their individual stamp on the game they play with each other, someone else's game will most likely be a little different, and so will the next game.
In answer to post #17... if you send the missiles against different targets, like 7 targets for example, they don't do 49, 56, 63, or 70 damage to each... each dart does 7, 8, 9, or 10 damage... and if the wizard is 10th level he may be facing monsters that are CR 10 or higher.
Scorching Ray only receives the benefit once. Each Ray is intended to have a separate attack and damage roll as you said. It is only similar in that it has the potential to deal heavy damage to a single target.
Magic Missile trades damage for accuracy. This ruling would make Magic Missile trade being the ultimate spell for being able to hit NPCs wearing a Brooch of Shielding.
I always used to roll 3d4+3 for Magic Missile damage until I found out that the RAW intended the damage roll to be 1d4+1, and depending on what level slot you use to cast the spell will determine the number of missiles you have that do that damage.
It makes me wonder how many are doing it the 'old way' and how many have switched to the new way.
I’ve seen Crawford’s tweet as well. Since you tagged the spell in your post, I took another look at the description. I really don’t see anything that specifically says the three darts all have to do the same damage. Nor does it say they don’t.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree. It's left vague enough to roll for each dart, or just roll once for all darts. Some people quote the rule on page 196 of the PHB. Damage Rolls, the last paragraph:
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
This seems like it refers to AoEs but it doesn't say just AoEs, and the magic missiles all strike at the same time (The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.)
I guess in the end it always comes down to how each DM will rule on it in their game. Maybe having a talk with them beforehand to iron out such details would be best.
The top result on Sage Advice when searching for "Magic Missile" is https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/17/magic-missile-do-you-roll-the-same-d4-for-all-darts/
Personally, I don't see that it matters that much but at my table we roll 1d4+1 for each missile (so 3d4+3 as a 1st level spell), just like we roll 2d6 for each ray of scorching ray. We tend to justify this as a high damage roll hits a particularly vulnerable spot and a low damage roll hits a better protected spot.
My group's rule of thumb for damage is for an indiscriminate area of effect (e.g. burning hands or fireball) roll once and apply uniformly to all targets, for spells with precise targetable effects (inc. magic missile) roll for each projectile/effect.
So he says there the RAW is that it is one damage roll. And RAI is that it doesn't matter. But some have wondered if the Evoker Wizard's ability, Empowered Evocation applies once to the overall damage or to each dart... perhaps this link helps answer that:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/26/magic-missile-3-bolts/
Put on your tinfoil hats everyone. We're going for a ride.
After having read over this again, you could make the argument that nothing in that entire exchange referred to whether or not you make a damage roll per missile or one roll that applies to all missile equally. When Jeremy Crawford says, "Yep. It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but that roll can damage the same target more than once." I think he was referring to the spell's interaction with Empowered Evocation and that you only apply the Empowered Evocation damage boost to one damage roll. I would cite Mike Mearls' tweet on Empowered Evocation as evidence of what Jeremy was referring to. Going back to the fireball example from Jeremy's tweet, I don't know if it even applies to magic missile because each fireball spell is a single fireball versus multiple magic missiles from a single casting.
I'm not sure that when Jeremy said "one damage roll" he was referring to damage per missile at all. I maintain that RAW is open to interpretation unless there is further errata I'm unaware of.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think he was referring to the one damage roll mentioned in the magic missile spell... 1d4+1.
Just like it mentions one damage roll in the fireball spell 8d6. Nothing in the fireball spell says you don't roll 8d6 for each creature caught in the AoE, getting a different result for each one. The rules found outside the spell mention it is one damage roll (but that can apply equally to fireball or magic missile).
It could also be argued that the 'target' referred to in Mearls tweet was the spell damage roll and not the creature, sine Empowered Evocation affects damage rolls and not creatures. So if you cast a spell like Scorching Ray where you roll separately for each of the 3 attacks then you only add the bonus from Empowered Evocation to one of the Ray's damage rolls. But with Magic Missile you apply Empowered Evocation to it's one damage roll (1d4+1) and then have each missile hit whatever they're going to hit.
If I Dm a game and the players enjoy the details, the numbers and slow pace. I would get them to roll each missile.
Got a group that likes speed, can’t wait for their turn again ? Well I’d use one dice roll.
Usually I imagine the players would prefer to roll 8d4+8 rather than 8(1d4+1). The prospect of doing 16 damage with a level 6 spell is off-putting, however in the case of empowered spell the later is obviously better. I imagine my few sorcerers will take that option. But I'll leave it to the players to decide for their own spells, rather than upsetting everyone's apple carts.
Extended Signature
scenario 1. If a 10th level wizard used a 5th level slot to have 7 missiles and rolled 7d4+7... +5 (INT mod for Empowered Evocation) and got all 4's on the roll, his max damage would be 40.
scenario 2. But if the same 10th level wizard used a 5th level slot to have 7 missiles and rolled 1d4+1+5 (INT mod for Empowered Evocation) and got a 1 on his damage roll, his minimum damage would be 49.
The average from scenario 1 would be 29 or 30 and average from scenario 2 would be 56 or 63. (rough ballpark as I used 2 or 3 for the averages of 1d4)
in scenario 1 you only add the Empowered Evocation once to the total of all the d4's you roll... and in scenario 2 you add it once to the single d4 roll and multiply that total by the number of missiles
Ah, I was thinking of the Sorcerer Meta Magic Empower Spell.
Extended Signature
I think allowing the 5th level slot to deal 49 to 70 damage is maybe a bit too much. An averagr rogue will be dead in a single round.
The standard rules according to the developers are in favor of the 49 to 70 damage magic missiles. Any DM is free to homebrew rule it down to something less. They can also say that fireball only does 5d6 damage (like it did back in 2nd edition), but why not leave the rules the way they are meant to be and have the wizard have a really cool magic missile.
It's much more powerful than other spells of the same level, and has no hit roll. I'd rule that while only one roll is necessary only one dart applies the additional damage as it would be with Scorching Ray. This is very likely to be the intent.
Scorching Ray is otherwise the most comparable and potent spell for single target damage. It can deal 6(2d6)+5=47 damage, but requires successful attack rolls, compared to 7(1d4+6)=60 damage with no roll is not likely intended.
Other comparisons: Disintegrate using a high level spell (6th level spells and higher incur restrictions on spell regeneration and storage and you only get one slot) on hit does 10(d6)+40=75 damage.
Agonizing Eldritch Blast with Hex, ever popular, on hit deals 2(2d6+5)=24 damage (or 36 at level 11)
You could compare it to AoEs where you could do absurd damage to 7 individual targets. With evocation you could easily out strip MM with Burning Hands even at level-1, but spreading that damage over 7 targets means you won't be killing anything that's intended to be a challenge.
Extended Signature
It's also much much easier to hit 7 targets with Magic Missile than Burning Hands, or any AoE for that matter, and the AoEs have save rolls.
Extended Signature
I would actually argue that Scorching Ray states that you make a ranged attack for each, so each ray is intended to be a separate attack with it's own roll and damage. But all the magic missiles strike at once even against multiple targets (similar to an AoE). Another interesting note is that Magic Missile is not an attack (as an attack requires a d20 attack roll... check pages 193-194 of the PHB.). And the Eldritch Blast spell when using the Agonizing Blast Invocation actually supports the argument for magic missile doing the higher amounts of damage as the Agonizing Blast allows for each blast to have the ability modifier added (1d10 from blast + 1d6 from Hex + 5 from ability modifier), and that goes for each blast (2 blasts at 5th level, 3 blasts at 11th level, and 4 blasts at 17th level). That's an average of 28 for 2 blasts, 42 for 3 blasts, and 56 for 4 blasts... all from a cantrip/1st level spell/invocation combo.
Remember not all wizards can do the extra damage with magic missile, only Evocation wizards of 10th level or higher. And Evocation wizards are meant to be all about the damage spells and being a bit OP. Look at their 2nd level ability Sculpt Spells, which allows them to protect allies from damage within a Fireball ... c'mon, does that make any sense. No! But it's taken in stride because it's magic and that's something cool for Evocation wizards to do.
Ultimately it's left to the DM and players to work out among themselves for each game, most if not all of the rules are left open to interpretation so that each group can put their individual stamp on the game they play with each other, someone else's game will most likely be a little different, and so will the next game.
#MagicMissilesdamagerollis1d4+1
In answer to post #17... if you send the missiles against different targets, like 7 targets for example, they don't do 49, 56, 63, or 70 damage to each... each dart does 7, 8, 9, or 10 damage... and if the wizard is 10th level he may be facing monsters that are CR 10 or higher.
Scorching Ray only receives the benefit once. Each Ray is intended to have a separate attack and damage roll as you said. It is only similar in that it has the potential to deal heavy damage to a single target.
Magic Missile trades damage for accuracy. This ruling would make Magic Missile trade being the ultimate spell for being able to hit NPCs wearing a Brooch of Shielding.
Which is a silly trade off.
Extended Signature