Hello, I'm currently playing a level 8 barbarian/warlock (5 Ancestral Guardian and 3 undead warlock) character in my current campaign. I recently gained access to the spell Mirror image and this has brought up a question. Do Ancestral Protectors cause disadvantage on attacks against the duplicates since their not me?
The is definitely something to talk to your DM about. The issue I see with how Mirror Image and Ancestral Protectors is worded is this. In order for Mirror Image to come into effect the enemy must target you. On the other hand Ancestral Guardian comes into effect when a creature hit by you make an attack roll that isn't against you.
But what determines what an attack roll is being made against? Is it what the effects of a hit would be applied to or is it what the attacker chose as their target?
Personally, I would go with the latter and an attack directed to a mirror image would not have disadvantage. But I don't believe my position is necessarily well supported by the rules as written.
I come to this position because if the spirits start harassing the attacker then they would know what they are swinging at is an illusion and thus differentiate you from your mirror images.
But what determines what an attack roll is being made against? Is it what the effects of a hit would be applied to or is it what the attacker chose as their target?
Making An Attack roll is always against a target and when a Mirror Image a is targeted, it's always instead of you so when it is, you are not targted or hit.
''Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.''
But what determines what an attack roll is being made against? Is it what the effects of a hit would be applied to or is it what the attacker chose as their target?
Making An Attack roll is always against a target and when a Mirror Image a is targeted, it's always instead of you so when it is, you are not targted or hit.
''Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.''
Plaguescarred, you realize that the mirror image wording actually means that the foe is (attempting to ) targeting you and the spell confuses them into sticking at an illusion that they thought was you. At all times you are the target. Because of that ancestral guardian would never come into effect since you are always the (intended) target.
Yeah, I'd say so long as you're the initial target it covers Ancestral Protectors, since the intent of that feature is to keep the affected creature focused on you. For the purposes of what Ancestral Protectors is checking for, hitting one of the duplicates instead is still an attempt to attack you.
From RAW, I would reach the opposite conclusion ... :) ... Ancestral Protectors should work with mirror image.
Mirror Image: "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack insteadtargets one of your duplicates."
The die roll for Mirror Image changes the target of the attack before the attack roll is made. The attack moves to one of the images.
The wording of Ancestral Protectors: "Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you"
Mirror image changes the target of the attack using the wording "instead targets one of your duplicates". The duplicates are not you. Ancestral Protectors does not limit the effect only to attacks on creatures, it affects any attack roll "that isn't against you". The duplicates aren't you since you do not take any damage when a duplicate is hit. The duplicate also has its own AC that is not the same as yours and suffers different effects when hit. The duplicate is not a creature but Ancestral Protectors only specifies attack rolls that are not against you. So, I don't see a reason why, RAW, Ancestral Protectors would not work with Mirror Image to inflict disadvantage on attacks that end up targeting a duplicate.
P.S. Ancestral Protectors is a magical effect, it isn't some sort of aware creature that decides whether or not to interfere with an attack when it is intended to hit the barbarian. All the magical effect needs to know - is an attack by the designated creature being resolved against the barbarian or not? If not then the attack has disadvantage, the magic makes it harder to hit anything except the barbarian. The only question is whether the duplicates ARE the barbarian - and they clearly aren't since the rules specifically refer to targeting a duplicate instead of the caster and the duplicate has a different AC and has different effects on a hit.
Yeah, I'd say so long as you're the initial target it covers Ancestral Protectors, since the intent of that feature is to keep the affected creature focused on you. For the purposes of what Ancestral Protectors is checking for, hitting one of the duplicates instead is still an attempt to attack you.
The wording of the rules doesn't take intent into account, only what target the attack is being resolved against. If one of the images is targeted, it isn't you, and as a result the effects of Ancestral Protectors affect the attack roll. It may not be RAI but RAW it would appear to work.
Plaguescarred, you realize that the mirror image wording actually means that the foe is (attempting to ) targeting you and the spell confuses them into sticking at an illusion that they thought was you. At all times you are the target. Because of that ancestral guardian would never come into effect since you are always the (intended) target.
Yes i realize it. You are never the target when a Mirror Image is targeted instead, such adverb means ''as an alternative or substitute.''
To illustrate my point better, it can trigger the Sentinel feat as explained by the Dev;
@ToddKenreck When using mirror image. Does an attacker who targets a mirror image instead of you provoke an attack from the Sentinel feat?
Do Ancestral Protectors cause disadvantage on attacks against the duplicates since their not me?
After reading David42 post let me reconsider. Yes it will have disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you which is the case with the spell, but it should not grant resistance though since the Mirror Image is not a creature.
Hello, I'm currently playing a level 8 barbarian/warlock (5 Ancestral Guardian and 3 undead warlock) character in my current campaign. I recently gained access to the spell Mirror image and this has brought up a question. Do Ancestral Protectors cause disadvantage on attacks against the duplicates since their not me?
An attack on one of your Mirror Image doesn't target or hit you so Ancestral Protector can't come into effect.EDIT I originally misread the feature the answer is yes.
The is definitely something to talk to your DM about. The issue I see with how Mirror Image and Ancestral Protectors is worded is this. In order for Mirror Image to come into effect the enemy must target you. On the other hand Ancestral Guardian comes into effect when a creature hit by you make an attack roll that isn't against you.
But what determines what an attack roll is being made against? Is it what the effects of a hit would be applied to or is it what the attacker chose as their target?
Personally, I would go with the latter and an attack directed to a mirror image would not have disadvantage. But I don't believe my position is necessarily well supported by the rules as written.
I come to this position because if the spirits start harassing the attacker then they would know what they are swinging at is an illusion and thus differentiate you from your mirror images.
Making An Attack roll is always against a target and when a Mirror Image a is targeted, it's always instead of you so when it is, you are not targted or hit.
''Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates.''
Ah, thanks!
Plaguescarred, you realize that the mirror image wording actually means that the foe is (attempting to ) targeting you and the spell confuses them into sticking at an illusion that they thought was you. At all times you are the target. Because of that ancestral guardian would never come into effect since you are always the (intended) target.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, I'd say so long as you're the initial target it covers Ancestral Protectors, since the intent of that feature is to keep the affected creature focused on you. For the purposes of what Ancestral Protectors is checking for, hitting one of the duplicates instead is still an attempt to attack you.
From RAW, I would reach the opposite conclusion ... :) ... Ancestral Protectors should work with mirror image.
Mirror Image: "Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates."
The die roll for Mirror Image changes the target of the attack before the attack roll is made. The attack moves to one of the images.
The wording of Ancestral Protectors: "Until the start of your next turn, that target has disadvantage on any attack roll that isn’t against you"
Mirror image changes the target of the attack using the wording "instead targets one of your duplicates". The duplicates are not you. Ancestral Protectors does not limit the effect only to attacks on creatures, it affects any attack roll "that isn't against you". The duplicates aren't you since you do not take any damage when a duplicate is hit. The duplicate also has its own AC that is not the same as yours and suffers different effects when hit. The duplicate is not a creature but Ancestral Protectors only specifies attack rolls that are not against you. So, I don't see a reason why, RAW, Ancestral Protectors would not work with Mirror Image to inflict disadvantage on attacks that end up targeting a duplicate.
P.S. Ancestral Protectors is a magical effect, it isn't some sort of aware creature that decides whether or not to interfere with an attack when it is intended to hit the barbarian. All the magical effect needs to know - is an attack by the designated creature being resolved against the barbarian or not? If not then the attack has disadvantage, the magic makes it harder to hit anything except the barbarian. The only question is whether the duplicates ARE the barbarian - and they clearly aren't since the rules specifically refer to targeting a duplicate instead of the caster and the duplicate has a different AC and has different effects on a hit.
The wording of the rules doesn't take intent into account, only what target the attack is being resolved against. If one of the images is targeted, it isn't you, and as a result the effects of Ancestral Protectors affect the attack roll. It may not be RAI but RAW it would appear to work.
Yes i realize it. You are never the target when a Mirror Image is targeted instead, such adverb means ''as an alternative or substitute.''
To illustrate my point better, it can trigger the Sentinel feat as explained by the Dev;
After reading David42 post let me reconsider. Yes it will have disadvantage on any attack roll that isn't against you which is the case with the spell, but it should not grant resistance though since the Mirror Image is not a creature.
Granting resistance (or not) to the damage dealt by the attack on a mirror image is irrelevant, since any hit causes the mirror to disappear.
Yeah that's very true :)