Question: Can an Echo Knight 4/Bladesinger 6 multiclass use Booming Blade from their Echo's location as part of the Manifest Echo ability?
Reasoning: 6th lvl Bladesingers get a unique Extra Attack feature that allows them to sub one of their attacks for a cantrip. Manifest Echo allows you to have any attack you make originate from the Echo's position. Moreover Booming Blade specifies that the spell is cast from the weapon that makes the attack. I've included exact text below:
Extra Attack (Bladesinger): "Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Manifest Echo: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack."
Booming Blade: "You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you."
My Thinking: Booming Blade would be cast while taking the Attack action, which qualifies for Manifest Echo. Moreover Manifest Echo specifies "any attack you make with that action" as qualifying, and Booming Blade has you make a melee attack as part of its casting. Lastly that spell originates from the weapon making the attack, so the "Range: Self (5-foot radius)" of Booming Blade would transfer to the Echo (in the same way that the range of your own melee attack transfers to the Echo when you use the ability).
Unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. Personally I would be fine with this but here is the sticking point I see with it RAW.
Manifest Echo allows you to make an attack from the echo's position. While part of casting Booming Blade is making an attack, the targeting requirements are stipulated by the spell. So while you can make the attack that is part of Booming Blade from the echo's position, you are still limited to targets within 5ft of you. This is also a problem when using a Reach weapon with Booming Blade.
To truly be able to use Booming Blade from your echo's position you would have to be able to cast the spell from your echo's position. Find Familiar let's you cast touch range spells from your familiar's position and Manifest Echo would need similar language.
After reading all of the text provided in the OP, I'm not even convinced that you can technically make the attack that is part of Booming Blade from the echo's position. Casting Booming Blade is casting a spell, not making an attack. The Bladesinger ability allows you to cast one of your cantrips "in place of" one of your attacks that you get via Extra Attack. The Manifest Echo feature says that "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action . . ."
When you put these together, in the OP's proposed scenario you take the Attack action which triggers your Bladesinger Extra Attack ability. Now, with that declared Attack action we make a normal attack (if desired) and we cast Booming Blade. This is what is happening "with that [Attack] action". The casting of a spell is not an "attack you make with that action", it is a spell that was cast "in place of" one of your attacks.
Yes, once we get around to resolving the effect of Booming Blade there is a melee attack involved but I don't think that it works with the above abilities as written.
Maybe better discussed separately but my assumption is that the attack involved in the Booming Blade spell is a melee spell attack and not a melee weapon attack. I cannot think of any way that any melee spell attack can work with Manifest Echo based on how it's written.
So I hear when you're saying, but Booming Blade very specifically isn't a melee spell attack. Not only does the text specify that it's a melee attack, but that attack is not made with your spell attack modifier, instead using your physical stats. Which, since it is an attack made during your Attack action I think it still qualifies for Manifest Echo. Now I could definitely hear an argument that the casting range of "self" could be argued as a way to counter this, though I think there's enough textual evidence that other effects that would originate from "self" (say, a melee attack, opportunity attack, etc...) can originate from the Echo as well.
I think the real question to answer here is: Does Booming Blade originate 5ft from the caster (per the range) or 5ft from the person making the attack (per the description). The former supports that this won't work, the latter suggests that it will.
Ok, I can get behind the idea that the attack during the effect of the Booming Blade spell is a melee weapon attack and not a melee spell attack. But I'm still not sure that that solves the arguments I previously made against this attack qualifying for Manifest Echo. Yes, this attack will be made during your Attack action, but I do not think that this is an attack that is made with that Action. IMO, you are using your Attack action to (optionally) make some other normal attack and to cast a spell. The booming blade attack is an effect of a spell, not an attack that you are making with your Attack action. Pedantic maybe, but I still think that's what's going on here in terms of RAW.
I think the answer is typically no, for the reason that the spell's range is independent of the weapon's range or reach, and nothing about the echo lets you cast a spell from its space. I say "typically" because if the situation is such that the target is within 5 feet of you anyway and also within the reach of your weapon if delivered from the echo, then sure, I don't see anything preventing it. But the spell's range isn't something you can get around.
This is solid reasoning, I could see a DM allowing it because there exists enough nebulous reasoning for it to make sense and it doesn't really break the game if it does work, BUT this explanation gives me reason to think that RAW this wouldn't work. Thank you for your time and energy!
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Question: Can an Echo Knight 4/Bladesinger 6 multiclass use Booming Blade from their Echo's location as part of the Manifest Echo ability?
Reasoning: 6th lvl Bladesingers get a unique Extra Attack feature that allows them to sub one of their attacks for a cantrip. Manifest Echo allows you to have any attack you make originate from the Echo's position. Moreover Booming Blade specifies that the spell is cast from the weapon that makes the attack. I've included exact text below:
Extra Attack (Bladesinger): "Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
Manifest Echo: "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack."
Booming Blade: "You brandish the weapon used in the spell’s casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of you."
My Thinking: Booming Blade would be cast while taking the Attack action, which qualifies for Manifest Echo. Moreover Manifest Echo specifies "any attack you make with that action" as qualifying, and Booming Blade has you make a melee attack as part of its casting. Lastly that spell originates from the weapon making the attack, so the "Range: Self (5-foot radius)" of Booming Blade would transfer to the Echo (in the same way that the range of your own melee attack transfers to the Echo when you use the ability).
Thoughts?
Unfortunately it isn't quite that simple. Personally I would be fine with this but here is the sticking point I see with it RAW.
Manifest Echo allows you to make an attack from the echo's position. While part of casting Booming Blade is making an attack, the targeting requirements are stipulated by the spell. So while you can make the attack that is part of Booming Blade from the echo's position, you are still limited to targets within 5ft of you. This is also a problem when using a Reach weapon with Booming Blade.
To truly be able to use Booming Blade from your echo's position you would have to be able to cast the spell from your echo's position. Find Familiar let's you cast touch range spells from your familiar's position and Manifest Echo would need similar language.
After reading all of the text provided in the OP, I'm not even convinced that you can technically make the attack that is part of Booming Blade from the echo's position. Casting Booming Blade is casting a spell, not making an attack. The Bladesinger ability allows you to cast one of your cantrips "in place of" one of your attacks that you get via Extra Attack. The Manifest Echo feature says that "When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action . . ."
When you put these together, in the OP's proposed scenario you take the Attack action which triggers your Bladesinger Extra Attack ability. Now, with that declared Attack action we make a normal attack (if desired) and we cast Booming Blade. This is what is happening "with that [Attack] action". The casting of a spell is not an "attack you make with that action", it is a spell that was cast "in place of" one of your attacks.
Yes, once we get around to resolving the effect of Booming Blade there is a melee attack involved but I don't think that it works with the above abilities as written.
Maybe better discussed separately but my assumption is that the attack involved in the Booming Blade spell is a melee spell attack and not a melee weapon attack. I cannot think of any way that any melee spell attack can work with Manifest Echo based on how it's written.
So I hear when you're saying, but Booming Blade very specifically isn't a melee spell attack. Not only does the text specify that it's a melee attack, but that attack is not made with your spell attack modifier, instead using your physical stats. Which, since it is an attack made during your Attack action I think it still qualifies for Manifest Echo. Now I could definitely hear an argument that the casting range of "self" could be argued as a way to counter this, though I think there's enough textual evidence that other effects that would originate from "self" (say, a melee attack, opportunity attack, etc...) can originate from the Echo as well.
I think the real question to answer here is: Does Booming Blade originate 5ft from the caster (per the range) or 5ft from the person making the attack (per the description). The former supports that this won't work, the latter suggests that it will.
Ok, I can get behind the idea that the attack during the effect of the Booming Blade spell is a melee weapon attack and not a melee spell attack. But I'm still not sure that that solves the arguments I previously made against this attack qualifying for Manifest Echo. Yes, this attack will be made during your Attack action, but I do not think that this is an attack that is made with that Action. IMO, you are using your Attack action to (optionally) make some other normal attack and to cast a spell. The booming blade attack is an effect of a spell, not an attack that you are making with your Attack action. Pedantic maybe, but I still think that's what's going on here in terms of RAW.
I think the answer is typically no, for the reason that the spell's range is independent of the weapon's range or reach, and nothing about the echo lets you cast a spell from its space. I say "typically" because if the situation is such that the target is within 5 feet of you anyway and also within the reach of your weapon if delivered from the echo, then sure, I don't see anything preventing it. But the spell's range isn't something you can get around.
This is solid reasoning, I could see a DM allowing it because there exists enough nebulous reasoning for it to make sense and it doesn't really break the game if it does work, BUT this explanation gives me reason to think that RAW this wouldn't work. Thank you for your time and energy!