More specifically, can a fiend that has magically shapeshifted into another form be summoned through normal fiendish summoning methods?
My players have the true name of a succubus and want to summon her, then bind her. Currently she is polymorphed into a human with her shapechanger feat. If they try to summon her with the intent and proper spells to summon a fiend, will it work or fail?
Yeah, a succubus is still a fiend while they're transformed, and the thing about true names is that they tend to stick around.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
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So when a creature polymorphs they don't count as their new form's type? Or does the spell polymorph and abilities that "magically polymorph" function differently? Or them having her true name circumvent her ability to hide?
Polymorph abilities usually differ a fair bit from the polymorph spell. For example, succubus's Shapechange ability says:
Other than its size and speed, its statistics are the same in each form.
While the polymorph spell says:
The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Honestly I don’t think there’s a good rules answer to this, as the basic summoning spells are based around summoning a stat block rather than how you pull a particular entity from Plane A to Plane B. Gate is about the only spell that can expressly target a particular being like this, and in that case you just need the name.
As Plaguescarred and Quar1on have said a Succubuses Shapechanger trait is not equivalent to the Polymorph spell and has its own rules describing its mechanics in the Succubuses stat block. This is why spells like Hold Person do not work on a Succubus even when they have assumed a humanoid form. Only their appearance, movement speeds, and possibly size have changed. Everything else, including creature type, remain the same. When a monster reproduces the effect of an existing spell then the monster's stat block will simply reference the spell, rather than provide a redundant explanation of the spells mechanics. Pixies for example can cast Polymorph once per day, along with several other spells.
Also, as Plaguescarred mentions the actual spell Polymorph has no effect on creatures with the Shapechanger trait.
Honestly I don’t think there’s a good rules answer to this, as the basic summoning spells are based around summoning a stat block rather than how you pull a particular entity from Plane A to Plane B. Gate is about the only spell that can expressly target a particular being like this, and in that case you just need the name.
While Summon Greater Demon doesn't say you can target a specific demon if named, it does say that a demon has disadvantage on its saving throw if you said its name. So while RAW you can't chose a specific demon to summon it seems pretty self evident that the RAI is that you can.
Also, if the spell the OP is concerned about is Summon Greater Demon then even changing the creatures type might not be sufficient. This gets at something deeper not addressed by the rules, but is a Polymorphed Barlgura still a Demon? I bring this up because Summon Greater Demon doesn't target the creature type Fiend, but specifically Demons which isn't as rigorously defined in the rules.
As Plaguescarred and Quar1on have said a Succubuses Shapechanger trait is not equivalent to the Polymorph spell and has its own rules describing its mechanics in the Succubuses stat block. This is why spells like Hold Person do not work on a Succubus even when they have assumed a humanoid form. Only their appearance, movement speeds, and possibly size have changed. Everything else, including creature type, remain the same. When a monster reproduces the effect of an existing spell then the monster's stat block will simply reference the spell, rather than provide a redundant explanation of the spells mechanics. Pixies for example can cast Polymorph once per day, along with several other spells.
Also, as Plaguescarred mentions the actual spell Polymorph has no effect on creatures with the Shapechanger trait.
Honestly I don’t think there’s a good rules answer to this, as the basic summoning spells are based around summoning a stat block rather than how you pull a particular entity from Plane A to Plane B. Gate is about the only spell that can expressly target a particular being like this, and in that case you just need the name.
While Summon Greater Demon doesn't say you can target a specific demon if named, it does say that a demon has disadvantage on its saving throw if you said its name. So while RAW you can't chose a specific demon to summon it seems pretty self evident that the RAI is that you can.
Also, if the spell the OP is concerned about is Summon Greater Demon then even changing the creatures type might not be sufficient. This gets at something deeper not addressed by the rules, but is a Polymorphed Barlgura still a Demon? I bring this up because Summon Greater Demon doesn't target the creature type Fiend, but specifically Demons which isn't as rigorously defined in the rules.
Demons are fairly well defined. A Demon any creature with the Demon tag, right behind the creature type. Technically, there's nothing stopping a non-Fiend from being a Demon, but since polymorph doesn't say that you retain tags, there's no reason to believe that you would.
That also brings up the issue that succubi are neither Demons nor Devils, so Summon Greater Demon wouldn't apply. As Ace of Rogues said, it's difficult to give a rules answer to a question like this because there aren't too many rules about actually summoning fiends.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Also, if the spell the OP is concerned about is Summon Greater Demon then even changing the creatures type might not be sufficient. This gets at something deeper not addressed by the rules, but is a Polymorphed Barlgura still a Demon? I bring this up because Summon Greater Demon doesn't target the creature type Fiend, but specifically Demons which isn't as rigorously defined in the rules.
Demons are fairly well defined. A Demon any creature with the Demon tag, right behind the creature type. Technically, there's nothing stopping a non-Fiend from being a Demon, but since polymorph doesn't say that you retain tags, there's no reason to believe that you would.
That also brings up the issue that succubi are neither Demons nor Devils, so Summon Greater Demon wouldn't apply. As Ace of Rogues said, it's difficult to give a rules answer to a question like this because there aren't too many rules about actually summoning fiends.
For some reason I thought Succubus were demons but you are right. They are Fiend(Shapechanger) rather than Fiend(Demon) and their lore describes them as inhabiting all of the lower planes, not just the Abyss.
Honestly there is no formal spell involved. My players found a book about fiendish summoning and infernal contracts. I stated to them that the book has methods of summoning fiends.
At which point the answer becomes "whatever the DM feels appropriate". The mechanics of magic as a concept- as opposed to spells, magic items, features, etc- is fairly loose and open-ended.
More specifically, can a fiend that has magically shapeshifted into another form be summoned through normal fiendish summoning methods?
My players have the true name of a succubus and want to summon her, then bind her. Currently she is polymorphed into a human with her shapechanger feat. If they try to summon her with the intent and proper spells to summon a fiend, will it work or fail?
Summoning a specific Succubus should work wether it's currently Shapechanged or in it's true form.
Yeah, a succubus is still a fiend while they're transformed, and the thing about true names is that they tend to stick around.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
So when a creature polymorphs they don't count as their new form's type? Or does the spell polymorph and abilities that "magically polymorph" function differently? Or them having her true name circumvent her ability to hide?
Polymorph abilities usually differ a fair bit from the polymorph spell. For example, succubus's Shapechange ability says:
While the polymorph spell says:
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
A polymorph spell has no effect on a shapechanger such as a succubus though.
Honestly I don’t think there’s a good rules answer to this, as the basic summoning spells are based around summoning a stat block rather than how you pull a particular entity from Plane A to Plane B. Gate is about the only spell that can expressly target a particular being like this, and in that case you just need the name.
As Plaguescarred and Quar1on have said a Succubuses Shapechanger trait is not equivalent to the Polymorph spell and has its own rules describing its mechanics in the Succubuses stat block. This is why spells like Hold Person do not work on a Succubus even when they have assumed a humanoid form. Only their appearance, movement speeds, and possibly size have changed. Everything else, including creature type, remain the same. When a monster reproduces the effect of an existing spell then the monster's stat block will simply reference the spell, rather than provide a redundant explanation of the spells mechanics. Pixies for example can cast Polymorph once per day, along with several other spells.
Also, as Plaguescarred mentions the actual spell Polymorph has no effect on creatures with the Shapechanger trait.
While Summon Greater Demon doesn't say you can target a specific demon if named, it does say that a demon has disadvantage on its saving throw if you said its name. So while RAW you can't chose a specific demon to summon it seems pretty self evident that the RAI is that you can.
Also, if the spell the OP is concerned about is Summon Greater Demon then even changing the creatures type might not be sufficient. This gets at something deeper not addressed by the rules, but is a Polymorphed Barlgura still a Demon? I bring this up because Summon Greater Demon doesn't target the creature type Fiend, but specifically Demons which isn't as rigorously defined in the rules.
Demons are fairly well defined. A Demon any creature with the Demon tag, right behind the creature type. Technically, there's nothing stopping a non-Fiend from being a Demon, but since polymorph doesn't say that you retain tags, there's no reason to believe that you would.
That also brings up the issue that succubi are neither Demons nor Devils, so Summon Greater Demon wouldn't apply. As Ace of Rogues said, it's difficult to give a rules answer to a question like this because there aren't too many rules about actually summoning fiends.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
For some reason I thought Succubus were demons but you are right. They are Fiend(Shapechanger) rather than Fiend(Demon) and their lore describes them as inhabiting all of the lower planes, not just the Abyss.
A Succubus which you know the name could be conjured with a Planar Ally spell though you might get a different creature anyway (GM's choice).
Honestly there is no formal spell involved. My players found a book about fiendish summoning and infernal contracts. I stated to them that the book has methods of summoning fiends.
At which point the answer becomes "whatever the DM feels appropriate". The mechanics of magic as a concept- as opposed to spells, magic items, features, etc- is fairly loose and open-ended.
I would not let a player succubi avoid the summoning merely by shapeshifting. If she wants to protect herself, there are better means.