So I'm planning for some coastal adventures, and I'm looking at some monster mechanics that prompted a question. The Medusa's Petrifying Gaze ability says that the target creature becomes restrained before fully petrified. The Kraken, in turn, has a Freedom of Movement ability that says, "magical effects can't reduce its speed or cause it to be restrained."
Now I'm assuming that the Medusa's effect is magical in nature, so does that mean that the Kraken is immune to the Petrifying Gaze? I know my players will be interested in attempting the old Perseus trick and turn the Kraken to stone, but is that not possible RAW?
This is actually a fairly interesting question. In one way, a kraken is immune to a medusa's Petrifying Gaze. In another way, it isn't. In a third way, it is. In a fourth way, it isn't.
The first way is, as you mentioned, the fact that the kraken's Freedom of Movement feature prevents it from being Restrained from magical effects such as medusa's Petrifying Gaze. This means that the initial effect of the ability wouldn't take hold, which means the later effect of inflicting Petrified, which only affects "the restrained creature," would never happen. Kraken beats medusa.
The second way, however, is the fact that Petrifying Gaze skips Restrained altogether when the saving throw is failed by 5 or more. In this case, the kraken would instantly be petrified, which it doesn't have any protection against. Medusa beats kraken
The third way is just a numbers game. Petrifying Gaze is a DC 14 Constitution saving throw. Krakens have +14 to Constitution saving throws. There's no such thing as a critical fail on saving throws, so even if it rolled a 1, the kraken would have a 15 against the DC of 14.
The fourth way builds on the third way, with the understanding that it's possible to reduce saving throws. Mind Sliver and the Bard College of Eloquence's Unsettling Words feature come to mind. However, because of the first way that the kraken is immune to the medusa, you would have to reduce the lowest possible roll of 15 down to 9 to make the failed save actually matter. This puts Mind Sliver out of the running, since it's just 1d4, but Unsettling Words uses a character's Bardic Inspiration die, which ranges from 1d6 to 1d12 across levels.
So basically, theoretically, if you managed to slap it with at least a -6 to its saving throw and it rolled really low, a kraken could be Petrified by a medusa.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Wow! This is a more complex situation than I thought. So if the players really want to do this, they've got to earn it. Just the kind of thing that makes for a good encounter!
Petrifying Gaze. When a creature that can see the medusa’s eyes starts its turn within 30 feet of the medusa, the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is instantly petrified. Otherwise, a creature that fails the save begins to turn to stone and is restrained. The restrained creature must repeat the saving throw at the end of its next turn, becoming petrified on a failure or ending the effect on a success. The petrification lasts until the creature is freed by the greater restoration spell or other magic.
Unless surprised, a creature can avert its eyes to avoid the saving throw at the start of its turn. If the creature does so, it can’t see the medusa until the start of its next turn, when it can avert its eyes again. If the creature looks at the medusa in the meantime, it must immediately make the save.
If the medusa sees itself reflected on a polished surface within 30 feet of it and in an area of bright light, the medusa is, due to its curse, affected by its own gaze.
The description does not define the Petrifying Gaze as a magical effect. This would mean that the kraken is not immune to the effect and if it fails the saving throw by less than 5 then it would be restrained and will begin to turn to stone. But it sounds like the game creators have seen "Class of the Titans" and have planned for this tactic. Not only does the +14 to CON saving throws nearly ensures the kraken won't fail the save for this effect; it's Freedom of Movement feature states:
Freedom of Movement. The kraken ignores difficult terrain, and magical effects can't reduce its speed or cause it to be restrained. It can spend 5 feet of movement to escape from nonmagical restraints or being grappled.
So as long as the creature can take its actions then it can spend its movement to break the restrained effect. So unless you have a mechanism to stun or paralyze it then it looks like the monster can break free unless if it fails the initial save by 5 more. Now I think effects from debuffs like Unsettling Words, Mind Sliver , and Bane can stack; and if you combine these effects with a Divination Wizard with some favorable Portant values then you might come up with a strategy to pull it off.
However, remember that Paralyzing Gaze states: "the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature." And being dead probably meets the requirement for being incapacitated, and the medusa forces the creature to attempt the save (this meaning it is not automatic or obligated). In short, unless the DM wants remove these conditions under the circumstances, the medusa would need to be alive and choose to use their Paralyzing Gaze on the kraken.
With all that said, this is a great question and exercise of looking at features of monsters. In short, it can work under the right implications and rulings of the GM. However, I think the game designers are looking for players to find a unique solution to defeat the kraken.
The Basilisk stat block specifies that "the creature magically begins to turn to stone...", but there's no such distinction with the Medusa, which brings up some RAW/RAI issues. The implication is that the ability comes from a curse, which strongly suggests there is magic at work, but it's never specified. If a DM determines that RAW, the Kraken is not immune to the restrained component of the effect, how could that be described/explained?
And indeed, being immune to a speed reduction can complicate matters, but if this isn't a magical reduction, the Kraken isn't immune. And even if this immunity is granted, that's a separate component of the Kraken's ability than the magical restrained immunity: they could have movement but still be under the other effects of the restrained condition; how does moving break the restrained condition? It could be swimming away, still restrained RAW, and still subject to that second saving throw. Thoughts?
So far as I understand it, those spells/features can stack. The party has a sorcerer with mind sliver (I should know: he was using it against my remorhaz just yesterday) and a cleric that could prepare bane, but... they'll have to recruit an Eloquence Bard to stack all three.
And they'd have to recruit the medusa too, it looks like. I thought that there was mention of a medusa's head retaining the Petrifying Gaze ability in the lore description somewhere, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe that's only found in previous editions. So, barring DM intervention on the lore, they'd need to keep the medusa alive if they want to petrify the kraken.
Wow! This is a more complex situation than I thought. So if the players really want to do this, they've got to earn it. Just the kind of thing that makes for a good encounter!
Well, they have to earn it, but it seems like it would take some metagame knowledge to really pull it off. I’d try to find a way to let them know about how they’ll need to weaken it (reduce the save) before it would work. As a player, I might feel a bit cheated knowing there was one single correct strategy and my character has no way to know what it was. If you let them know how to do it, then they make a tactical choice based on risk v reward. Do they try to pull this off, or just go with the old fashioned beat the snot out of it? To my mind, that makes it much more interesting than, there’s a super-secret option but you didn’t know it.
Just gonna point out, I'd put some brakes on them turning a Medusa head into a magic item in the first place. There's no RAW supporting the option, and it's honestly a bit broken to give players access to a constant petrifying aura that doesn't cut into anyone's action economy. A few recommendations if you want to support it: limited charges, refresh every day as is typical; single target as opposed to AoE; attunement; and takes an action to use.
Well, they have to earn it, but it seems like it would take some metagame knowledge to really pull it off. I’d try to find a way to let them know about how they’ll need to weaken it (reduce the save) before it would work.
Oh, if it's something they'd want to pursue, I'd definitely put in some in-world explanations. Maybe they'd go to the Medusa and she would explain that the stories they've heard of a severed medusa head doing anything was just a fanciful legend, and that if she's going to have a chance at petrifying the Kraken, she would need...
Just gonna point out, I'd put some brakes on them turning a Medusa head into a magic item in the first place. There's no RAW supporting the option, and it's honestly a bit broken to give players access to a constant petrifying aura that doesn't cut into anyone's action economy. A few recommendations if you want to support it: limited charges, refresh every day as is typical; single target as opposed to AoE; attunement; and takes an action to use.
I don't know who suggested making the head a magic item, but I agree that it would need some serious management to not break the game. In addition to your suggestions, one limitation I heard was that the saving throw DC reduces over time until it's a useless, decomposed head.
Just gonna point out, I'd put some brakes on them turning a Medusa head into a magic item in the first place. There's no RAW supporting the option, and it's honestly a bit broken to give players access to a constant petrifying aura that doesn't cut into anyone's action economy. A few recommendations if you want to support it: limited charges, refresh every day as is typical; single target as opposed to AoE; attunement; and takes an action to use.
I don't know who suggested making the head a magic item, but I agree that it would need some serious management to not break the game. In addition to your suggestions, one limitation I heard was that the saving throw DC reduces over time until it's a useless, decomposed head.
If they're planning to take the head and use it on other monsters, then it's essentially a magic item.
Yeah, that makes sense, though in my game the creation of magic items takes quite a bit of work. And it would require the kinds of limitations you suggested.
The Basilisk stat block specifies that "the creature magically begins to turn to stone...", but there's no such distinction with the Medusa, which brings up some RAW/RAI issues. The implication is that the ability comes from a curse, which strongly suggests there is magic at work, but it's never specified. If a DM determines that RAW, the Kraken is not immune to the restrained component of the effect, how could that be described/explained?
And indeed, being immune to a speed reduction can complicate matters, but if this isn't a magical reduction, the Kraken isn't immune. And even if this immunity is granted, that's a separate component of the Kraken's ability than the magical restrained immunity: they could have movement but still be under the other effects of the restrained condition; how does moving break the restrained condition? It could be swimming away, still restrained RAW, and still subject to that second saving throw. Thoughts?
So far as I understand it, those spells/features can stack. The party has a sorcerer with mind sliver (I should know: he was using it against my remorhaz just yesterday) and a cleric that could prepare bane, but... they'll have to recruit an Eloquence Bard to stack all three.
And they'd have to recruit the medusa too, it looks like. I thought that there was mention of a medusa's head retaining the Petrifying Gaze ability in the lore description somewhere, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe that's only found in previous editions. So, barring DM intervention on the lore, they'd need to keep the medusa alive if they want to petrify the kraken.
1) Sage Advice offers reasoning how to decipher if an effect is magical or not. To summarize, the game acknowledges that there are creatures created by magical means; but this magic is now intertwined with nature and the cosmos. As a result, fantastical creatures are not consider magical unless if clearly expressed otherwise. The example they use is a dragon and its dragon's breathe. Magical effects, per the game's interpretation, are related to when a creature or item manipulates magical forces to create the effect. In short, if the description of an effect isn't directly referred to as magical, isn't a result of casting a spell or isn't described as being like a spell, or does not use a spell slot then the effect is not considered magical. So while the medusa may exist as a result of a curse that curse and the medusa are now a part of nature. This will include the creature's Paralyzing Gaze.
2) Regarding the kraken's Freedom of Movement feature, the rule description seems to imply that if the kraken is restrained or grappled then it can choose to end these conditions by expending 5ft of its movement. Mechanically, that would mean it loses 5ft of its total movement for the round. Thematically, I would say that creature can writhe and thrash so it breaks free of the hold; therefore the medusa cannot keep its gaze fixed on the creature. The only way to counter this is if the party can place an effect on the kraken that forbids it from using its move.
3) One possible option for using the medusa is listed in her description for Paralyzing Gaze: "If the medusa sees itself reflected on a polished surface within 30 feet of it and in an area of bright light, the medusa is, due to its curse, affected by its own gaze." I know it is not the same as the classical story or how the scene is constructed in the movies; but an option would be for the party can trick a medusa to gaze at herself and thus turning itself to stone. The party can then transport the medusa and at the right moment cast greater restoration to end her petrification.
1) That's good to know. I'll keep that in mind, though I can see it causing confusion at the table, especially if it comes up in the middle of the
2) Ah yes, the rest of the ability does detail that, doesn't it? Well, it sounds like hold monster is one more spell that they'll have to include in order to pull off this scheme.
3) This is a good plan if the medusa is uncooperative.
Incidentally, Perseus didn't turn a kraken to stone, he turned a sea serpent to stone. An ancient sea serpent doesn't have any immunities that block a medusa's gaze, though with a +10 con save and 2x legendary resistance it's not exactly likely.
In the original Greek myth perhaps, but I have a table of players who have seen Clash of the Titans, and when they see a Kraken on its way, they'll likely say, "Hey, where did that Medusa go?"
So I'm planning for some coastal adventures, and I'm looking at some monster mechanics that prompted a question. The Medusa's Petrifying Gaze ability says that the target creature becomes restrained before fully petrified. The Kraken, in turn, has a Freedom of Movement ability that says, "magical effects can't reduce its speed or cause it to be restrained."
Now I'm assuming that the Medusa's effect is magical in nature, so does that mean that the Kraken is immune to the Petrifying Gaze? I know my players will be interested in attempting the old Perseus trick and turn the Kraken to stone, but is that not possible RAW?
This is actually a fairly interesting question. In one way, a kraken is immune to a medusa's Petrifying Gaze. In another way, it isn't. In a third way, it is. In a fourth way, it isn't.
The first way is, as you mentioned, the fact that the kraken's Freedom of Movement feature prevents it from being Restrained from magical effects such as medusa's Petrifying Gaze. This means that the initial effect of the ability wouldn't take hold, which means the later effect of inflicting Petrified, which only affects "the restrained creature," would never happen. Kraken beats medusa.
The second way, however, is the fact that Petrifying Gaze skips Restrained altogether when the saving throw is failed by 5 or more. In this case, the kraken would instantly be petrified, which it doesn't have any protection against. Medusa beats kraken
The third way is just a numbers game. Petrifying Gaze is a DC 14 Constitution saving throw. Krakens have +14 to Constitution saving throws. There's no such thing as a critical fail on saving throws, so even if it rolled a 1, the kraken would have a 15 against the DC of 14.
The fourth way builds on the third way, with the understanding that it's possible to reduce saving throws. Mind Sliver and the Bard College of Eloquence's Unsettling Words feature come to mind. However, because of the first way that the kraken is immune to the medusa, you would have to reduce the lowest possible roll of 15 down to 9 to make the failed save actually matter. This puts Mind Sliver out of the running, since it's just 1d4, but Unsettling Words uses a character's Bardic Inspiration die, which ranges from 1d6 to 1d12 across levels.
So basically, theoretically, if you managed to slap it with at least a -6 to its saving throw and it rolled really low, a kraken could be Petrified by a medusa.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Wow! This is a more complex situation than I thought. So if the players really want to do this, they've got to earn it. Just the kind of thing that makes for a good encounter!
Medusa's Petrifying Gaze states:
The description does not define the Petrifying Gaze as a magical effect. This would mean that the kraken is not immune to the effect and if it fails the saving throw by less than 5 then it would be restrained and will begin to turn to stone. But it sounds like the game creators have seen "Class of the Titans" and have planned for this tactic. Not only does the +14 to CON saving throws nearly ensures the kraken won't fail the save for this effect; it's Freedom of Movement feature states:
So as long as the creature can take its actions then it can spend its movement to break the restrained effect. So unless you have a mechanism to stun or paralyze it then it looks like the monster can break free unless if it fails the initial save by 5 more. Now I think effects from debuffs like Unsettling Words, Mind Sliver , and Bane can stack; and if you combine these effects with a Divination Wizard with some favorable Portant values then you might come up with a strategy to pull it off.
However, remember that Paralyzing Gaze states: "the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn’t incapacitated and can see the creature." And being dead probably meets the requirement for being incapacitated, and the medusa forces the creature to attempt the save (this meaning it is not automatic or obligated). In short, unless the DM wants remove these conditions under the circumstances, the medusa would need to be alive and choose to use their Paralyzing Gaze on the kraken.
With all that said, this is a great question and exercise of looking at features of monsters. In short, it can work under the right implications and rulings of the GM. However, I think the game designers are looking for players to find a unique solution to defeat the kraken.
Excellent points.
The Basilisk stat block specifies that "the creature magically begins to turn to stone...", but there's no such distinction with the Medusa, which brings up some RAW/RAI issues. The implication is that the ability comes from a curse, which strongly suggests there is magic at work, but it's never specified. If a DM determines that RAW, the Kraken is not immune to the restrained component of the effect, how could that be described/explained?
And indeed, being immune to a speed reduction can complicate matters, but if this isn't a magical reduction, the Kraken isn't immune. And even if this immunity is granted, that's a separate component of the Kraken's ability than the magical restrained immunity: they could have movement but still be under the other effects of the restrained condition; how does moving break the restrained condition? It could be swimming away, still restrained RAW, and still subject to that second saving throw. Thoughts?
So far as I understand it, those spells/features can stack. The party has a sorcerer with mind sliver (I should know: he was using it against my remorhaz just yesterday) and a cleric that could prepare bane, but... they'll have to recruit an Eloquence Bard to stack all three.
And they'd have to recruit the medusa too, it looks like. I thought that there was mention of a medusa's head retaining the Petrifying Gaze ability in the lore description somewhere, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe that's only found in previous editions. So, barring DM intervention on the lore, they'd need to keep the medusa alive if they want to petrify the kraken.
Well, they have to earn it, but it seems like it would take some metagame knowledge to really pull it off. I’d try to find a way to let them know about how they’ll need to weaken it (reduce the save) before it would work. As a player, I might feel a bit cheated knowing there was one single correct strategy and my character has no way to know what it was.
If you let them know how to do it, then they make a tactical choice based on risk v reward. Do they try to pull this off, or just go with the old fashioned beat the snot out of it? To my mind, that makes it much more interesting than, there’s a super-secret option but you didn’t know it.
Just gonna point out, I'd put some brakes on them turning a Medusa head into a magic item in the first place. There's no RAW supporting the option, and it's honestly a bit broken to give players access to a constant petrifying aura that doesn't cut into anyone's action economy. A few recommendations if you want to support it: limited charges, refresh every day as is typical; single target as opposed to AoE; attunement; and takes an action to use.
Oh, if it's something they'd want to pursue, I'd definitely put in some in-world explanations. Maybe they'd go to the Medusa and she would explain that the stories they've heard of a severed medusa head doing anything was just a fanciful legend, and that if she's going to have a chance at petrifying the Kraken, she would need...
I don't know who suggested making the head a magic item, but I agree that it would need some serious management to not break the game. In addition to your suggestions, one limitation I heard was that the saving throw DC reduces over time until it's a useless, decomposed head.
If they're planning to take the head and use it on other monsters, then it's essentially a magic item.
Yeah, that makes sense, though in my game the creation of magic items takes quite a bit of work. And it would require the kinds of limitations you suggested.
1) Sage Advice offers reasoning how to decipher if an effect is magical or not. To summarize, the game acknowledges that there are creatures created by magical means; but this magic is now intertwined with nature and the cosmos. As a result, fantastical creatures are not consider magical unless if clearly expressed otherwise. The example they use is a dragon and its dragon's breathe. Magical effects, per the game's interpretation, are related to when a creature or item manipulates magical forces to create the effect. In short, if the description of an effect isn't directly referred to as magical, isn't a result of casting a spell or isn't described as being like a spell, or does not use a spell slot then the effect is not considered magical. So while the medusa may exist as a result of a curse that curse and the medusa are now a part of nature. This will include the creature's Paralyzing Gaze.
2) Regarding the kraken's Freedom of Movement feature, the rule description seems to imply that if the kraken is restrained or grappled then it can choose to end these conditions by expending 5ft of its movement. Mechanically, that would mean it loses 5ft of its total movement for the round. Thematically, I would say that creature can writhe and thrash so it breaks free of the hold; therefore the medusa cannot keep its gaze fixed on the creature. The only way to counter this is if the party can place an effect on the kraken that forbids it from using its move.
3) One possible option for using the medusa is listed in her description for Paralyzing Gaze: "If the medusa sees itself reflected on a polished surface within 30 feet of it and in an area of bright light, the medusa is, due to its curse, affected by its own gaze." I know it is not the same as the classical story or how the scene is constructed in the movies; but an option would be for the party can trick a medusa to gaze at herself and thus turning itself to stone. The party can then transport the medusa and at the right moment cast greater restoration to end her petrification.
1) That's good to know. I'll keep that in mind, though I can see it causing confusion at the table, especially if it comes up in the middle of the
2) Ah yes, the rest of the ability does detail that, doesn't it? Well, it sounds like hold monster is one more spell that they'll have to include in order to pull off this scheme.
3) This is a good plan if the medusa is uncooperative.
Incidentally, Perseus didn't turn a kraken to stone, he turned a sea serpent to stone. An ancient sea serpent doesn't have any immunities that block a medusa's gaze, though with a +10 con save and 2x legendary resistance it's not exactly likely.
In the original Greek myth perhaps, but I have a table of players who have seen Clash of the Titans, and when they see a Kraken on its way, they'll likely say, "Hey, where did that Medusa go?"