The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I can't see how that quote is relevant any longer, it's a 2014 answer that's referencing a 2014 rule. The 2024 rule is different. If I had to guess they intended for it to work the same but just didn't think it through properly when changing the base workings of Wildshape and thus wrote rules that are problematic.
Tough in 2024 is the same as 2014. Wildshape still replaces your statistics with the beast's. All prior rules are still in effect unless updated/contradicted by the 2024 rules. There is no reason to think that ruling is no longer valid.
Except that Wildshape doesn't replace the Druid's HP any more so they keep the benefit of Tough while a Beast. So that ruling really doesn't apply any more.
No, but the same wording could easily apply, simply changed to "the intent is no. Ability Score Improvements affect a druid's ability scores, and physical ability scores are replaced by the beast's while using Wild Shape."
Regardless, Sage Advice isn't RAW, so while it can help determine intent it's ultimately a moot point in a rule discussion. Unfortunately, the RAW isn't perfectly clear, as two things that Wild Shape says contradict each other; that your "game statistics" are replaced by the beast's, but also that you retain your feats. I will concede that the way 2024 Wild Shape is written does seem to more strongly lean towards the ASI portion of feats being maintained as RAW, but I am certain that is not the intent (RAI). Unfortunately - as I said before - I believe this to be a case of the designers neglecting to look beyond the way Wild Shape has always worked, and how the new inclusion of the statement "you retain your feats" might affect that without further clarification.
The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I can't see how that quote is relevant any longer, it's a 2014 answer that's referencing a 2014 rule. The 2024 rule is different. If I had to guess they intended for it to work the same but just didn't think it through properly when changing the base workings of Wildshape and thus wrote rules that are problematic.
Tough in 2024 is the same as 2014. Wildshape still replaces your statistics with the beast's. All prior rules are still in effect unless updated/contradicted by the 2024 rules. There is no reason to think that ruling is no longer valid.
Except that Wildshape doesn't replace the Druid's HP any more so they keep the benefit of Tough while a Beast. So that ruling really doesn't apply any more.
True regarding Wild Shape hit points, but the point still stands that it is an example of a feat modifying a statistic and Wild Shape replacing it. The Sage Advice states that the intent is that the replacement effect overwrites the attribute.
Essentially, it establishes an order of operations where replacement effects take place after other modifiers. As I said earlier, I couldn't find a rule support. However, this establishes RAI and there is nothing contradicting it in 2024 so it still stands.
No, but the same wording could easily apply, simply changed to "the intent is no. Ability Score Improvements affect a druid's ability scores, and physical ability scores are replaced by the beast's while using Wild Shape."
Regardless, Sage Advice isn't RAW, so while it can help determine intent it's ultimately a moot point in a rule discussion. Unfortunately, the RAW isn't perfectly clear, as two things that Wild Shape says contradict each other; that your "game statistics" are replaced by the beast's, but also that you retain your feats. I will concede that the way 2024 Wild Shape is written does seem to more strongly lean towards the ASI portion of feats being maintained as RAW, but I am certain that is not the intent (RAI). Unfortunately - as I said before - I believe this to be a case of the designers neglecting to look beyond the way Wild Shape has always worked, and how the new inclusion of the statement "you retain your feats" might affect that without further clarification.
I considered that this may be a new issue due to ASI being moved to a Feat, but ASI was already a class feature and the same issue already occurred with half feats. So either the issue was less pronounced (feats were not obviously interpreted as a "benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source" even if you typically get them via the ASI class feature), the ruling was obvious (apparently not), or the ruling was covered by the Tough ruling above.
If you took Vigor of the Hill Giant at level 4, you took it via a class feature, the level 4 ASI, and if it gave you +1 Strength or Constitution Increase, you it would increase the Strength or Constitution score of the Druid and that score would then be replaced by Wild Shape.
This isn't a problem new to 2024, but 2024 does have more opportunities for it to come up.
It was an issue in 2014 rules but most people didn't dig into rules interpretation deeply enough for it to ever come up. Because as mentioned here, there is rarely a case for a druid to be using their ASI for their strength or dex stats anyway. So who is even going to raise the question?
But the 2024 rules really bring the question to the forefront because they out and out just say "keep your feats" in wildshape. So it is far more obvious an interaction.
I've always ruled that since animals can physically benefit from an asi that druids would keep them. It has been easy to adjudicate and run and isn't OP. And I've done it for a decade now.
"Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature.
I would rule that means that even if you took a feat which granted you a boost to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, that gets overwritten by the Beast's stat block scores for those attributes. You will retain all the non ASI-aspects of the feat.
The problem is it says you retain your feats in the same way it says you retain your int, wis and charisma. And in the same way as you retain you skill proficiency and what have you. The same rule for keeping these is now outright saying you also keep your feat. So you absolutely are keeping the feat. And those feat says your stat goes up. So they do.
It'd be the same for if someone kept Mobile(or speedy). Your speed is increased. The beast form replaces your normal statblock, which includes your speed just as much as it includes your stats. But would you argue the someone with mobile(or speedy) feat, who KEEPS the mobile(or speedy) feat... doesn't actually have their speed increased?
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Except that Wildshape doesn't replace the Druid's HP any more so they keep the benefit of Tough while a Beast. So that ruling really doesn't apply any more.
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No, but the same wording could easily apply, simply changed to "the intent is no. Ability Score Improvements affect a druid's ability scores, and physical ability scores are replaced by the beast's while using Wild Shape."
Regardless, Sage Advice isn't RAW, so while it can help determine intent it's ultimately a moot point in a rule discussion. Unfortunately, the RAW isn't perfectly clear, as two things that Wild Shape says contradict each other; that your "game statistics" are replaced by the beast's, but also that you retain your feats.
I will concede that the way 2024 Wild Shape is written does seem to more strongly lean towards the ASI portion of feats being maintained as RAW, but I am certain that is not the intent (RAI).
Unfortunately - as I said before - I believe this to be a case of the designers neglecting to look beyond the way Wild Shape has always worked, and how the new inclusion of the statement "you retain your feats" might affect that without further clarification.
True regarding Wild Shape hit points, but the point still stands that it is an example of a feat modifying a statistic and Wild Shape replacing it. The Sage Advice states that the intent is that the replacement effect overwrites the attribute.
Essentially, it establishes an order of operations where replacement effects take place after other modifiers. As I said earlier, I couldn't find a rule support. However, this establishes RAI and there is nothing contradicting it in 2024 so it still stands.
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I considered that this may be a new issue due to ASI being moved to a Feat, but ASI was already a class feature and the same issue already occurred with half feats. So either the issue was less pronounced (feats were not obviously interpreted as a "benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source" even if you typically get them via the ASI class feature), the ruling was obvious (apparently not), or the ruling was covered by the Tough ruling above.
If you took Vigor of the Hill Giant at level 4, you took it via a class feature, the level 4 ASI, and if it gave you +1 Strength or Constitution Increase, you it would increase the Strength or Constitution score of the Druid and that score would then be replaced by Wild Shape.
This isn't a problem new to 2024, but 2024 does have more opportunities for it to come up.
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It was an issue in 2014 rules but most people didn't dig into rules interpretation deeply enough for it to ever come up. Because as mentioned here, there is rarely a case for a druid to be using their ASI for their strength or dex stats anyway. So who is even going to raise the question?
But the 2024 rules really bring the question to the forefront because they out and out just say "keep your feats" in wildshape. So it is far more obvious an interaction.
I've always ruled that since animals can physically benefit from an asi that druids would keep them. It has been easy to adjudicate and run and isn't OP. And I've done it for a decade now.
I got quotes!
I would rule that means that even if you took a feat which granted you a boost to either Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, that gets overwritten by the Beast's stat block scores for those attributes. You will retain all the non ASI-aspects of the feat.
The problem is it says you retain your feats in the same way it says you retain your int, wis and charisma. And in the same way as you retain you skill proficiency and what have you. The same rule for keeping these is now outright saying you also keep your feat. So you absolutely are keeping the feat. And those feat says your stat goes up. So they do.
It'd be the same for if someone kept Mobile(or speedy). Your speed is increased. The beast form replaces your normal statblock, which includes your speed just as much as it includes your stats. But would you argue the someone with mobile(or speedy) feat, who KEEPS the mobile(or speedy) feat... doesn't actually have their speed increased?
I got quotes!