But ASI is now an actual Feat instead of a separate thing all on it's own and all but Origin Feats provide a Stat increase as part of the benefit, so I could see how some DM's might allow them to carry over based on the way the rule is written. I don't believe that to be RAI though.
Oh boy, I didn't even notice ASI is a feat. See I was thinking 2014 where ASI was the standard and feats were optional. So it made sense those wouldn't carry over. But now if you take an ASI and it doesn't carry over then you've create an almost trap like choice. "Here take this feat but when you use your core class ability you don't get to have it. " When I read the new Wild Shape I interpreted RAI that feats were included in your new form because they are both rare and a costly investment to just shut off most of the time. Even though it would take more work, I am begining to think more and more that those stats should carry over. I mean consider that if you took Druid to level 20. You would hvae 4 feats and 1 epic feat. That would mean 20-25% of your character choice and investment is ignored since you spend most but not all of your time shapeshifted.
I also have a feeling we are going to see more magic items that are druid friendly. They officially added wraps for monks and Tasha's already has tattoos like Eldritch Claw. Older editions has special ironbark armors that would transform with you.
Oh well time will tell. But I think when I run my next 2024 campaign I will let it carry over with a caveat. "For the interest of time, if we don't have your form precaclulated we will run with the base stat block." My thought is they made druid have a limited number of forms, so I makes sense we could save the customized ones for that character as needed.
When I play, I acquiess the the DM, but be certain to ask.
Well do keep in mind that Ability Score Increases granted through feats - be it the ASI feat itself or otherwise - not carrying over only matter if they're taken in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are not replaced by the beast's, so any increases to those you have are maintained, as you use your own stats for them instead. Since Druid's main ability is Wisdom, typically most of your feats are likely geared towards that, so you will still "get to have it" while using your core class ability.
It's not particularly common for Druids to take feats that increase their physical ability scores, especially Strength, which would truly be the main ability you would benefit from stacking with a wild shape form.
Edit: And also don't forget it's only the Ability Score Increase portion of a (non ASI) feat that doesn't carry over; you still maintain all other benefits of the feat. If you took the ASI feat in a physical ability, that's a bummer, but honestly, has any druid ever taken a straight ASI in Strength?
Oh I agree. It would be a little odd to take Str Asi for a Druid. But not for Dex or Con. Dex equates to AC but Con equates to HP and concentration saves. So I can see a druid taking these as circle of the Moon. And circle of the Moon doesn't absolutley need to jack up their Wisdom like other druids. Given they can burn spell slots to wild shape imagine a Moon Druid with a set up like Charger, Grappler, Crusher, Speedy Tavern Brawler. The druid takes a big strength based form all those points of str or dex would mean a lot for that kind of build. Basically a battle field controller moving the enemy around through slams and bashes or even grabbing and running with them. Definately an outthere build but I don't see it game breaking for them to garner that +1 or 2 from stats.
But again this is a build where the player is really digging hard into shapechange combat/control
Circle of the Moon absolutely benefits from Wisdom as much as other druids. They still cast spells, first and foremost, and maintaining a high spell save DC is very important; Conjure Woodland Beings goes hard.
Also, Moon Druids' AC while wild shaped is equal to 13 plus their Wisdom score. Since AC is pretty much the only thing (other than Dexterity saves) that would really improve from carrying over Dexterity ASI's (if feat Ability Score Improvements did carry over), you'd be much better off increasing Wisdom rather than Dexterity, since the ability specifically says "your AC equals 13 plus your Wisdom modifier if that total is higher than the Beast’s AC," so it doesn't also add your Dexterity. Even if you do have Dexterity ASI's, there's no way that the beast's natural AC + your Dex ASI's will be higher than 13 + your Wisdom modifier.
And I can get into the specifics of why if you'd like me to, but most of those feats (Grappler, Crusher, Tavern Brawler) save Speedy and Charger are not a great idea for a Moon Druid.
Edit: And also, Constitution is great, but as has been said before, since Wild Shape doesn't change your HP and instead grants Temp HP, it wouldn't really do anything for you in wild shape except for Saving Throw DC.
To repeat, a wild shape's form is unaffected by Con -- you do not gain any HP from the beast. Additionally, skill and saving throw proficiencies explicitly use the modifiers in the stat block or yours. As far as AC and attacks go, for all intents and purposes, they have static modifiers because their construction is non-obvious in all cases. So changing your Str or Dex would only change the number in the box at the top of the page.
But it seems like you're already pretty set in your decision, so play it the way you like.
What happens to your AC when you take a +2 dex ASI and then wild shape into an ankylosaurus? Does its AC improve? I can't figure it out. Well, besides of course at that point you might already have a 20 wis so your AC would be 18 from the moon druid feature.
What happens to your AC when you take a +2 dex ASI and then wild shape into an ankylosaurus? Does its AC improve? I can't figure it out. Well, besides of course at that point you might already have a 20 wis so your AC would be 18 from the moon druid feature.
That beast form has a "natural armor" AC of 17. Natural armor, as far as I can tell, works like heavy armor, where the AC just is what it is and isn't affected by any ability scores. So, even if you believe that the ASI should increase the beast form's Dexterity score, it wouldn't affect its AC in this case.
Not just sarcastic, it was a sarcastic question, but that's because I really am not sure that there is an obvious answer.
I was looking at the available options, and as far as I can tell, it does look like most of the free beasts in the CR 1-6 range seem to use strength for their attacks in a tractable way. But there are more than a few exceptions of animals not using AC = 10+dex mod. I'm also unsure of all of the ones only present in the monster manual and not available in the PHB or for free. I know that there are beasts like the blood hawk that clearly can't use strength. I also know that sometimes it is impossible to tell what a creature uses or how it's effects' DCs are calculated.
I don't know of any where it's impossible to figure out how the numbers for their attacks and damage are calculated; as far as I am aware they are all either Strength or (rarely) Dexterity (+ Proficiency Bonus for the attack). If you can point one out to me where it's not, I'd be interested to take a look.
As for the AC, for some creatures - such as the afformentioned ankylosaurus - they do have wonky AC's because they have "natural armor or other defenses," and there's no way (that I know of) to know the true, full calculation for how those were determined. The only explanation we got was the line in the new MM that says "A monster’s Armor Class (AC) includes its natural armor, Dexterity, gear, and other defenses." It doesn't spell out what part of the AC calculation comes from "natural armor" and what part comes from "other defenses." We can maybe assume that, if a creature has higher AC than 10 + Dex with no explanation for it, that it is from natural armor, and "other defenses" only covers things like the Swashbuckler's Suave Defense, but we don't know for sure. For all we truly know, the ankylosaurus's AC could be calculated by "10 + 0 (Dex) + 2 (Natural Armor) + 3 (Other Defenses)." Given that, it would be reasonable to assume that if their Dexterity did increase, so would their AC - as Dexterity is "included" in AC calculation regardless - but still. Overly complicating things.
Anyway, all that said, changing a wild shape beast's physical stats to include your ASI's - while possible - is definitely overly complicated, requiring at least some reverse engineering, and definitely not the intent.
What about magic items that set your stats. Would an Amulet of Health set your wild shape Con to 19. No hp change since Wild Shape uses your hp but would the new form have a Con of 19?
The Wild Shape feature says that "worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it's practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment based on the creature's size and shape".
So basically, ask your DM for a ruling on whether it's reasonable for your chosen animal form to wear an amulet designed for a humanoid. If they say yes, then you can keep it on and it'll set the animal form's Constitution to 19. If they say no, then the animal form can't wear it and it doesn't work.
I don't think that Stat bonus should count as they are applied to the character and then those stats are replaced by the Beast stats in that order.
But ASI is now an actual Feat instead of a separate thing all on it's own and all but Origin Feats provide a Stat increase as part of the benefit, so I could see how some DM's might allow them to carry over based on the way the rule is written. I don't believe that to be RAI though.
It also helps that Druids no longer need calculate anything "on the fly" since they have to pick all the forms that they know in advance. It would not be hard to do the calculations well ahead of time.
I don't have a rules quote to back it up, but there is a Sage Advice that is still applicable.
The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I don't think that Stat bonus should count as they are applied to the character and then those stats are replaced by the Beast stats in that order.
But ASI is now an actual Feat instead of a separate thing all on it's own and all but Origin Feats provide a Stat increase as part of the benefit, so I could see how some DM's might allow them to carry over based on the way the rule is written. I don't believe that to be RAI though.
It also helps that Druids no longer need calculate anything "on the fly" since they have to pick all the forms that they know in advance. It would not be hard to do the calculations well ahead of time.
I don't have a rules quote to back it up, but there is a Sage Advice that is still applicable.
The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I agree completely, I was just saying that I could see why some DMs might choose to allow it, nothing more.
if it was the intent, DDB would be programmed to make it happen automatically, which it doesn't.
If only this was true! But there are still issues of incomplete functionality dating back years and years. Posts talking about them and asking for dndbeyond to finally implement. Just collecting dust. Wether or not this particular site is coded well, or not, isn't the best indicator of the rules intentions.
As to the question "how do you even account for higher strength" or similar changes. That's, like, DM 101 stuff.
Most monsters, ESPECIALLY just normal animals, has straightforward design. They have a proficiency bonus and a strength or dex based hit. And str or dex based damage bonus. Almost always str. Just as their AC is in part determined by the dex.
So, if the player has an ASI from a feat and bumps their bear's strength from 15 to 16, then they just add a +1 yo hit and damage.
It is very simple to do in practice. The hullabaloo is being quite overstated.
if it was the intent, DDB would be programmed to make it happen automatically, which it doesn't.
If only this was true! But there are still issues of incomplete functionality dating back years and years. Posts talking about them and asking for dndbeyond to finally implement. Just collecting dust. Wether or not this particular site is coded well, or not, isn't the best indicator of the rules intentions.
True, there are a variety of issues with them, but DDB character sheets do a pretty good job for most things. Wild Shape in particular is programmed quite well; Int/Wis/Charisma scores - as well as all saving throws and proficiencies - carry through, so it stands to reason they would carry through ability scores changing other things as well if they were intended to. Automatic updates to 2024 Wild Shape beasts have been programmed in - there's even a section for "2024 Wild Shapes" distinct, and differently programmed, from "2014 Wild Shapes" - so they've clearly been working on it and had the opportunity to add in ASI's if they intended them to be.
Regardless, when it comes down to it, so little would actually - functionally - change even if ASI improvements did carry through the vast majority of the time. As has been covered, Constitution doesn't carry through to HP as you're just granted Temp HP from Wild Shape. The only Druid subclass that routinely enters combat in Wild Shape is Circle of Moon, and their AC is calculated using Wisdom, so Dexterity wouldn't do anything for that. The vast majority of beasts use Strength for their attacks, but it is very rare for a Druid - unless they're some form of multi-class - to take any feats that affect Strength. Granted, there would be some more incentive to take Strength feats if they did carry through, but it would still be rare. The only thing that would effectively be changed most of the time is a small boost to some proficiencies. Which is nice, but not that big of a deal.
The thing is, 2024 wild shape calls out both keeping feats, but at the same time calls out replacing stats. Since those things are incompatible, you have to come to some conclusion.
I don't think these are incompatible at all. A feat does not say "Your Strength is 15." It says "add 1 to your Strength." It's no different from Speedy adding 10 to your movement speed - you take the base of the stats you have replaced, and add on the feat bonus.
Furthermore, I would never take DDB character builder behavior as an expression of design intent, especially when it could also be explained by them just not implementing the feature, which we have many other examples of.
While I think it's a bit of a pain to do the math and it's not always clear to determine the full effect of those increased stats, I think the RAW is pretty clear here. You retain your feats and there is no solid reason why a new shape would prevent those feats adding to your stats.
The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I can't see how that quote is relevant any longer, it's a 2014 answer that's referencing a 2014 rule. The 2024 rule is different. If I had to guess they intended for it to work the same but just didn't think it through properly when changing the base workings of Wildshape and thus wrote rules that are problematic.
The intent is no. The Tough feat affects a druid’s hit points, which are replaced by the beast’s hit points while using Wild Shape.
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
I can't see how that quote is relevant any longer, it's a 2014 answer that's referencing a 2014 rule. The 2024 rule is different. If I had to guess they intended for it to work the same but just didn't think it through properly when changing the base workings of Wildshape and thus wrote rules that are problematic.
Tough in 2024 is the same as 2014. Wildshape still replaces your statistics with the beast's. All prior rules are still in effect unless updated/contradicted by the 2024 rules. There is no reason to think that ruling is no longer valid.
Oh boy, I didn't even notice ASI is a feat. See I was thinking 2014 where ASI was the standard and feats were optional. So it made sense those wouldn't carry over. But now if you take an ASI and it doesn't carry over then you've create an almost trap like choice.
"Here take this feat but when you use your core class ability you don't get to have it. " When I read the new Wild Shape I interpreted RAI that feats were included in your new form because they are both rare and a costly investment to just shut off most of the time.
Even though it would take more work, I am begining to think more and more that those stats should carry over. I mean consider that if you took Druid to level 20. You would hvae 4 feats and 1 epic feat. That would mean 20-25% of your character choice and investment is ignored since you spend most but not all of your time shapeshifted.
I also have a feeling we are going to see more magic items that are druid friendly. They officially added wraps for monks and Tasha's already has tattoos like Eldritch Claw. Older editions has special ironbark armors that would transform with you.
Oh well time will tell. But I think when I run my next 2024 campaign I will let it carry over with a caveat. "For the interest of time, if we don't have your form precaclulated we will run with the base stat block." My thought is they made druid have a limited number of forms, so I makes sense we could save the customized ones for that character as needed.
When I play, I acquiess the the DM, but be certain to ask.
Well do keep in mind that Ability Score Increases granted through feats - be it the ASI feat itself or otherwise - not carrying over only matter if they're taken in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are not replaced by the beast's, so any increases to those you have are maintained, as you use your own stats for them instead.
Since Druid's main ability is Wisdom, typically most of your feats are likely geared towards that, so you will still "get to have it" while using your core class ability.
It's not particularly common for Druids to take feats that increase their physical ability scores, especially Strength, which would truly be the main ability you would benefit from stacking with a wild shape form.
Edit: And also don't forget it's only the Ability Score Increase portion of a (non ASI) feat that doesn't carry over; you still maintain all other benefits of the feat. If you took the ASI feat in a physical ability, that's a bummer, but honestly, has any druid ever taken a straight ASI in Strength?
Oh I agree. It would be a little odd to take Str Asi for a Druid. But not for Dex or Con. Dex equates to AC but Con equates to HP and concentration saves. So I can see a druid taking these as circle of the Moon. And circle of the Moon doesn't absolutley need to jack up their Wisdom like other druids. Given they can burn spell slots to wild shape imagine a Moon Druid with a set up like Charger, Grappler, Crusher, Speedy Tavern Brawler. The druid takes a big strength based form all those points of str or dex would mean a lot for that kind of build. Basically a battle field controller moving the enemy around through slams and bashes or even grabbing and running with them. Definately an outthere build but I don't see it game breaking for them to garner that +1 or 2 from stats.
But again this is a build where the player is really digging hard into shapechange combat/control
Circle of the Moon absolutely benefits from Wisdom as much as other druids. They still cast spells, first and foremost, and maintaining a high spell save DC is very important; Conjure Woodland Beings goes hard.
Also, Moon Druids' AC while wild shaped is equal to 13 plus their Wisdom score. Since AC is pretty much the only thing (other than Dexterity saves) that would really improve from carrying over Dexterity ASI's (if feat Ability Score Improvements did carry over), you'd be much better off increasing Wisdom rather than Dexterity, since the ability specifically says "your AC equals 13 plus your Wisdom modifier if that total is higher than the Beast’s AC," so it doesn't also add your Dexterity. Even if you do have Dexterity ASI's, there's no way that the beast's natural AC + your Dex ASI's will be higher than 13 + your Wisdom modifier.
And I can get into the specifics of why if you'd like me to, but most of those feats (Grappler, Crusher, Tavern Brawler) save Speedy and Charger are not a great idea for a Moon Druid.
Edit: And also, Constitution is great, but as has been said before, since Wild Shape doesn't change your HP and instead grants Temp HP, it wouldn't really do anything for you in wild shape except for Saving Throw DC.
To repeat, a wild shape's form is unaffected by Con -- you do not gain any HP from the beast. Additionally, skill and saving throw proficiencies explicitly use the modifiers in the stat block or yours. As far as AC and attacks go, for all intents and purposes, they have static modifiers because their construction is non-obvious in all cases. So changing your Str or Dex would only change the number in the box at the top of the page.
But it seems like you're already pretty set in your decision, so play it the way you like.
What happens to your AC when you take a +2 dex ASI and then wild shape into an ankylosaurus? Does its AC improve? I can't figure it out. Well, besides of course at that point you might already have a 20 wis so your AC would be 18 from the moon druid feature.
That beast form has a "natural armor" AC of 17. Natural armor, as far as I can tell, works like heavy armor, where the AC just is what it is and isn't affected by any ability scores. So, even if you believe that the ASI should increase the beast form's Dexterity score, it wouldn't affect its AC in this case.
I believe Wolf was being sarcastic. Also its AC is 15, not 17.
Not just sarcastic, it was a sarcastic question, but that's because I really am not sure that there is an obvious answer.
I was looking at the available options, and as far as I can tell, it does look like most of the free beasts in the CR 1-6 range seem to use strength for their attacks in a tractable way. But there are more than a few exceptions of animals not using AC = 10+dex mod. I'm also unsure of all of the ones only present in the monster manual and not available in the PHB or for free. I know that there are beasts like the blood hawk that clearly can't use strength. I also know that sometimes it is impossible to tell what a creature uses or how it's effects' DCs are calculated.
I don't know of any where it's impossible to figure out how the numbers for their attacks and damage are calculated; as far as I am aware they are all either Strength or (rarely) Dexterity (+ Proficiency Bonus for the attack). If you can point one out to me where it's not, I'd be interested to take a look.
As for the AC, for some creatures - such as the afformentioned ankylosaurus - they do have wonky AC's because they have "natural armor or other defenses," and there's no way (that I know of) to know the true, full calculation for how those were determined. The only explanation we got was the line in the new MM that says "A monster’s Armor Class (AC) includes its natural armor, Dexterity, gear, and other defenses." It doesn't spell out what part of the AC calculation comes from "natural armor" and what part comes from "other defenses."
We can maybe assume that, if a creature has higher AC than 10 + Dex with no explanation for it, that it is from natural armor, and "other defenses" only covers things like the Swashbuckler's Suave Defense, but we don't know for sure. For all we truly know, the ankylosaurus's AC could be calculated by "10 + 0 (Dex) + 2 (Natural Armor) + 3 (Other Defenses)."
Given that, it would be reasonable to assume that if their Dexterity did increase, so would their AC - as Dexterity is "included" in AC calculation regardless - but still. Overly complicating things.
Anyway, all that said, changing a wild shape beast's physical stats to include your ASI's - while possible - is definitely overly complicated, requiring at least some reverse engineering, and definitely not the intent.
One thing to note about half feats and ASIs even if allowed, is the limit of 20 for non epic boon ones. So some stats won't be raised even if allowed.
Thanks
I don't have a rules quote to back it up, but there is a Sage Advice that is still applicable.
Does the Tough feat have an effect for a druid while in beast form?
The same applies to applies to ability score improvements from Feats, possibly from other sources as well. The feats affect the Druid's ability score which is replaced by the beast's attribute. I would assume the same applies to a Manual of Gainful Exercise but might not apply to more temporary effects or other replacement effects (such as an Amulet of Health).
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I agree completely, I was just saying that I could see why some DMs might choose to allow it, nothing more.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If only this was true! But there are still issues of incomplete functionality dating back years and years. Posts talking about them and asking for dndbeyond to finally implement. Just collecting dust. Wether or not this particular site is coded well, or not, isn't the best indicator of the rules intentions.
I got quotes!
As to the question "how do you even account for higher strength" or similar changes. That's, like, DM 101 stuff.
Most monsters, ESPECIALLY just normal animals, has straightforward design. They have a proficiency bonus and a strength or dex based hit. And str or dex based damage bonus. Almost always str. Just as their AC is in part determined by the dex.
So, if the player has an ASI from a feat and bumps their bear's strength from 15 to 16, then they just add a +1 yo hit and damage.
It is very simple to do in practice. The hullabaloo is being quite overstated.
I got quotes!
True, there are a variety of issues with them, but DDB character sheets do a pretty good job for most things. Wild Shape in particular is programmed quite well; Int/Wis/Charisma scores - as well as all saving throws and proficiencies - carry through, so it stands to reason they would carry through ability scores changing other things as well if they were intended to. Automatic updates to 2024 Wild Shape beasts have been programmed in - there's even a section for "2024 Wild Shapes" distinct, and differently programmed, from "2014 Wild Shapes" - so they've clearly been working on it and had the opportunity to add in ASI's if they intended them to be.
Regardless, when it comes down to it, so little would actually - functionally - change even if ASI improvements did carry through the vast majority of the time.
As has been covered, Constitution doesn't carry through to HP as you're just granted Temp HP from Wild Shape. The only Druid subclass that routinely enters combat in Wild Shape is Circle of Moon, and their AC is calculated using Wisdom, so Dexterity wouldn't do anything for that. The vast majority of beasts use Strength for their attacks, but it is very rare for a Druid - unless they're some form of multi-class - to take any feats that affect Strength. Granted, there would be some more incentive to take Strength feats if they did carry through, but it would still be rare.
The only thing that would effectively be changed most of the time is a small boost to some proficiencies.
Which is nice, but not that big of a deal.
I don't think these are incompatible at all. A feat does not say "Your Strength is 15." It says "add 1 to your Strength." It's no different from Speedy adding 10 to your movement speed - you take the base of the stats you have replaced, and add on the feat bonus.
Furthermore, I would never take DDB character builder behavior as an expression of design intent, especially when it could also be explained by them just not implementing the feature, which we have many other examples of.
While I think it's a bit of a pain to do the math and it's not always clear to determine the full effect of those increased stats, I think the RAW is pretty clear here. You retain your feats and there is no solid reason why a new shape would prevent those feats adding to your stats.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I can't see how that quote is relevant any longer, it's a 2014 answer that's referencing a 2014 rule. The 2024 rule is different.
If I had to guess they intended for it to work the same but just didn't think it through properly when changing the base workings of Wildshape and thus wrote rules that are problematic.
Tough in 2024 is the same as 2014. Wildshape still replaces your statistics with the beast's. All prior rules are still in effect unless updated/contradicted by the 2024 rules. There is no reason to think that ruling is no longer valid.
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