Apologies. My previous edits were apparently not shown in my post above. Here is the full final text. =====================================================================================
Good discussion.
Some points: 1) Writing is a way of encoding speech into written symbols. 2) Writing is a way of intentionally recording meaning. 3) Thieves' Cant as a speaking method is an a way of encoding speech to obscure obvious meaning, which still intentionally transmitting that meaning. 4) Thieves' Cant as a full mode of communication must be written down in "full language". The short-hand symbols are useful as labels only, with clear meanings as of the time of writing. That last bit is important: as of the time of writing. 5) Eyes of the Rune Keeper is a magical ability with access to a fuller reality and information set than is available in any normal sense. 6) Magic is very often associated with the setting of Intention. Without clear intention, some say, there cannot be magic. Call it Will. (Or perhaps Bob. Whatever.) 7) Eyes could be acting as a computer (as described above) literally translating the words as inscribed into the mind of the Warlock, perhaps gleaning the words' meaning from across time (think: Tardis). Eyes could also be looking past the literal words to read the original intention of the inscriber; this would be a more powerful, even dangerous, ability. This is akin to being able to look at an encrypted document, immediately divine the 256-bit SSL key, read the text, and understand the _meaning_ of the text as written by the author. All but that last step should bring to mind the means-and-ways of quantum encryption, something that we can (almost?) do now. The last step of divining the intention of the author is pure high magic (not discussed here). Possible, but certainly not easy. Nonetheless, it has been mentioned that Eyes would certainly be able to read a page of an ancient, forgotten language. It may not be convenient, but languages...and dialects...evolve over time. A word clearly understood to mean X 200 years ago, could now be clearly understood to mean Y. Or 20 years ago. Or 2. In the 1980s, everyone knew was spam was. Eyes would know that a document was written to describe a fried breakfast meat; Eyes would also know that a document was written to describe low-value advertisements with a substantial annoyance factor. I.e., it would know intention, not just the literal words. Bottom Line: How powerful is the Patron? Do They have the ability to grant this ability? It is not trivial at that final level, and would make anyone with the ability a true danger to any Monarch, Government, or Power with written secrets. Remember that the Warlock would have Reason for asking for this ability originally, and would be giving up other, powerful options.
It looks like the point of 5e was to streamline gameplay and try to keep the technical's simple while allowing more ingenuity.
The same applies to "read all writing." It's simple, and people are getting too technical minded on the definition of each word in the sentence. It's actually quite simple:
a thief draws the Thieves Cant symbols for a cat, a window, a sun, and a skull... that's pictography with the meaning "cat burglary during the day time will lead to death" and Eyes of the Rune Keeper would be able to decipher that message.
however if a thief wrote the words "cat" "window" "sun" "skull" in whatever language, then Eyes of the Rune Keeper would read it as the literal "cat window sun skull" and it is now a riddle to be deciphered using one's own intelligence.
At the Core it is DM discretion on that matter. However if one look at languages such as Druidic and Thieve's Cant once must first define them how they are discriped in the Source Book (PHB page 66 and 96).
Druidic is in general described as a stand alone language spoken and as a scripture are of magical nature. If one would compare the Rune Keeper Invocation towards the Sctipture then yes, because they are both are of magical nature, since the Invocation is a sort of gift by the warlock's patron, which in turn would allow them to read it without a problem.
Thieve's Cant is in spoken language a code that is using a mix of dialect and jargon, however as a writen context it is depiction of symbols and signs which some other languages can be to, which makes this decision from a DM side a mine field, meaning that some language writen is purely symbols and and signs that is more commen then Thieve's Cant.
So if one look at the whole situation it would be better to ask, how willing is the patron that impowers the Warlock to allow them to read and decipher a written language? the best suggestion is to define how strong the Eye of the Rune Keeper Invocation is, by determine the Patron, are they Mischivious? Lier? Selfless? any of those things. By defining the patron, that way one can define the reach of the Rune Keeper Invocation.
keep in mind, as written, it says "read all writing" not "read all languages"
so you wouldn't necessarily understand or comprehend the language's literal definition of a word but you should be able to understand the meaning behind its context and purpose in the writ you are reading. "the squal flies at midnight" written in draconic would not grant you the sudden realization of what the draconic word for "squal" "flies" or "midnight" looks like and means, but the actual message/code behind the *writing* should be available to the reader.
if a 3 year old deaf mute scribbled something down, and had a meaning for it that didn't exist in any language except their own thoughts... the reader with those eyes of the rune keeper should be able to read what the writer was meaning, even though the scribbles aren't in any particular language.
I would take a complete opposite approach as the feat says "read all writing" not "read all languages" the language wouldn't look like the literal language, written in common or not, but the writer's meaning would come out. Which could make for interesting gameplay where the reader no longer sees the literal language or able to interpret written material in their own mind but instead ALL writing is deciphered as the author's intent and could look completely different to them than anyone without said feat.
IE: subtext is no-longer subtext or subtle to their eyes, but also the art of the language is forever sacrificed, no art in the sonnet or poetry, no word play is seen to them, just the authors meaning behind their writings. Comedy and story are all gone, and the literal message and long winded exposition and explanation behind every written word is what they see.
To me it seems clear - encryption is not a language, it is an intentional means of disguising meaning.
Me saying "reverse all directions, cut in half any even number, and Yes means no, No means maybe, Maybe means Yes." is NOT me inventing a new language, it is me intentionally obfuscating my communication.
I’d say pictographic languages are still valid for the Invocation; if it could work on something like Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, it should work on an X through a square that means “danger”.
I mean, anyone who can see can read all writing already. You don't need an invocation for that. Understanding all writing is the trick.
can you read Egyptian heiroglyphics or Russian Cyrillic or Japanese kanji? No you probably cant. You can see the writing, but you cant read it all.
I'm confused by your comments. Are you saying that the invocation allows the character to understand the language or not?
"Eyes of the Rune Keeper: You can read all writing."
As a DM I interpret that to mean that the character is able to understand all writing. This means that they would know the meaning of the symbols of whatever language they were written in. In my opinion, READing the writing implies the capability to understand it. Otherwise, you aren't reading it, you are just looking at the writing which any character with or without the warlock invocation is able to do. Anyone can look at writing, only someone who understands the writing can read it.
However, also in my opinion, much like the Comprehend Languages spell - the ability will give the literal meaning of the words that were written down. If the words have a special meaning to someone specific because the meaning of the words were changed for that individual for whatever reason - then the ability just gives the generally accepted meaning and not some encoded one used by an individual or small group.
If a language has changed over time, I'd have the magic give the meaning of the words when they were written as opposed to a current interpretation.
Anyway, bottom line for me is that the invocation provides the ability to understand everything read in a literal way. It does not provide the ability to read codes, ciphers or other types of obfuscated information.
We are saying you can read the language, but Thieves Can't is a code, not a language. Let me demonstrate.
Here is an English statement.
Have you got bees and honey for a cup of rosy for me? I am on the floor.
Can you read that? Do you know what it means? Because there are TWO meanings. It is just a silly little bit of poetry if you do not know the secret code.
This is a real life example of Cockney rhyming slang and it decrypts to Have you money to buy a cup of tea for me? I am poor.
Here's the distinction I would make--and this is just me looking at the rule and applying it to different situations in gameplay. If the writing was done for the purposes of direct communication, as languages generally are, then the invocation allows you to read and understand the writing. If the writing was done to deceive, obscure, or encrypt, then you can still read what is literally and visually being depicted, though it may not carry an accurate meaning.
With that in mind, the Eyes of the Rune Keeper invocation would not allow someone to read and understand the scrawlings of thieves' cant. They might get "The rooster crows at midnight" but they won't get "If you are looking for the snitch, he is going to be at the guard outpost tonight to confess to the crime and give up the names of his co-conspirators."
That's how I see it, at least.
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"Not all those who wander are lost"
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Apologies. My previous edits were apparently not shown in my post above. Here is the full final text.
=====================================================================================
Good discussion.
Some points:
1) Writing is a way of encoding speech into written symbols.
2) Writing is a way of intentionally recording meaning.
3) Thieves' Cant as a speaking method is an a way of encoding speech to obscure obvious meaning, which still intentionally transmitting that meaning.
4) Thieves' Cant as a full mode of communication must be written down in "full language". The short-hand symbols are useful as labels only, with clear meanings as of the time of writing. That last bit is important: as of the time of writing.
5) Eyes of the Rune Keeper is a magical ability with access to a fuller reality and information set than is available in any normal sense.
6) Magic is very often associated with the setting of Intention. Without clear intention, some say, there cannot be magic. Call it Will. (Or perhaps Bob. Whatever.)
7) Eyes could be acting as a computer (as described above) literally translating the words as inscribed into the mind of the Warlock, perhaps gleaning the words' meaning from across time (think: Tardis). Eyes could also be looking past the literal words to read the original intention of the inscriber; this would be a more powerful, even dangerous, ability. This is akin to being able to look at an encrypted document, immediately divine the 256-bit SSL key, read the text, and understand the _meaning_ of the text as written by the author. All but that last step should bring to mind the means-and-ways of quantum encryption, something that we can (almost?) do now. The last step of divining the intention of the author is pure high magic (not discussed here). Possible, but certainly not easy.
Nonetheless, it has been mentioned that Eyes would certainly be able to read a page of an ancient, forgotten language.
It may not be convenient, but languages...and dialects...evolve over time. A word clearly understood to mean X 200 years ago, could now be clearly understood to mean Y. Or 20 years ago. Or 2. In the 1980s, everyone knew was spam was.
Eyes would know that a document was written to describe a fried breakfast meat; Eyes would also know that a document was written to describe low-value advertisements with a substantial annoyance factor.
I.e., it would know intention, not just the literal words.
Bottom Line:
How powerful is the Patron? Do They have the ability to grant this ability? It is not trivial at that final level, and would make anyone with the ability a true danger to any Monarch, Government, or Power with written secrets. Remember that the Warlock would have Reason for asking for this ability originally, and would be giving up other, powerful options.
It looks like the point of 5e was to streamline gameplay and try to keep the technical's simple while allowing more ingenuity.
The same applies to "read all writing." It's simple, and people are getting too technical minded on the definition of each word in the sentence.
It's actually quite simple:
a thief draws the Thieves Cant symbols for a cat, a window, a sun, and a skull... that's pictography with the meaning "cat burglary during the day time will lead to death" and Eyes of the Rune Keeper would be able to decipher that message.
however if a thief wrote the words "cat" "window" "sun" "skull" in whatever language, then Eyes of the Rune Keeper would read it as the literal "cat window sun skull" and it is now a riddle to be deciphered using one's own intelligence.
At the Core it is DM discretion on that matter.
However if one look at languages such as Druidic and Thieve's Cant once must first define them how they are discriped in the Source Book (PHB page 66 and 96).
Druidic is in general described as a stand alone language spoken and as a scripture are of magical nature. If one would compare the Rune Keeper Invocation towards the Sctipture then yes, because they are both are of magical nature, since the Invocation is a sort of gift by the warlock's patron, which in turn would allow them to read it without a problem.
Thieve's Cant is in spoken language a code that is using a mix of dialect and jargon, however as a writen context it is depiction of symbols and signs which some other languages can be to, which makes this decision from a DM side a mine field, meaning that some language writen is purely symbols and and signs that is more commen then Thieve's Cant.
So if one look at the whole situation it would be better to ask, how willing is the patron that impowers the Warlock to allow them to read and decipher a written language?
the best suggestion is to define how strong the Eye of the Rune Keeper Invocation is, by determine the Patron, are they Mischivious? Lier? Selfless? any of those things.
By defining the patron, that way one can define the reach of the Rune Keeper Invocation.
keep in mind, as written, it says
"read all writing"
not
"read all languages"
so you wouldn't necessarily understand or comprehend the language's literal definition of a word but you should be able to understand the meaning behind its context and purpose in the writ you are reading.
"the squal flies at midnight" written in draconic would not grant you the sudden realization of what the draconic word for "squal" "flies" or "midnight" looks like and means, but the actual message/code behind the *writing* should be available to the reader.
if a 3 year old deaf mute scribbled something down, and had a meaning for it that didn't exist in any language except their own thoughts... the reader with those eyes of the rune keeper should be able to read what the writer was meaning, even though the scribbles aren't in any particular language.
I would take a complete opposite approach as the feat says "read all writing" not "read all languages"
the language wouldn't look like the literal language, written in common or not, but the writer's meaning would come out. Which could make for interesting gameplay where the reader no longer sees the literal language or able to interpret written material in their own mind but instead ALL writing is deciphered as the author's intent and could look completely different to them than anyone without said feat.
IE: subtext is no-longer subtext or subtle to their eyes, but also the art of the language is forever sacrificed, no art in the sonnet or poetry, no word play is seen to them, just the authors meaning behind their writings. Comedy and story are all gone, and the literal message and long winded exposition and explanation behind every written word is what they see.
I look at it this way. You can READ all writing. So you could read Spanish, but not understand it, it doesnt say you can UNDERSTAND all languages.
I mean, anyone who can see can read all writing already. You don't need an invocation for that. Understanding all writing is the trick.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To me it seems clear - encryption is not a language, it is an intentional means of disguising meaning.
Me saying "reverse all directions, cut in half any even number, and Yes means no, No means maybe, Maybe means Yes." is NOT me inventing a new language, it is me intentionally obfuscating my communication.
I’d say pictographic languages are still valid for the Invocation; if it could work on something like Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, it should work on an X through a square that means “danger”.
can you read Egyptian heiroglyphics or Russian Cyrillic or Japanese kanji? No you probably cant. You can see the writing, but you cant read it all.
That was my point, yes.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm confused by your comments. Are you saying that the invocation allows the character to understand the language or not?
"Eyes of the Rune Keeper: You can read all writing."
As a DM I interpret that to mean that the character is able to understand all writing. This means that they would know the meaning of the symbols of whatever language they were written in. In my opinion, READing the writing implies the capability to understand it. Otherwise, you aren't reading it, you are just looking at the writing which any character with or without the warlock invocation is able to do. Anyone can look at writing, only someone who understands the writing can read it.
However, also in my opinion, much like the Comprehend Languages spell - the ability will give the literal meaning of the words that were written down. If the words have a special meaning to someone specific because the meaning of the words were changed for that individual for whatever reason - then the ability just gives the generally accepted meaning and not some encoded one used by an individual or small group.
If a language has changed over time, I'd have the magic give the meaning of the words when they were written as opposed to a current interpretation.
Anyway, bottom line for me is that the invocation provides the ability to understand everything read in a literal way. It does not provide the ability to read codes, ciphers or other types of obfuscated information.
We are saying you can read the language, but Thieves Can't is a code, not a language. Let me demonstrate.
Here is an English statement.
Have you got bees and honey for a cup of rosy for me? I am on the floor.
Can you read that? Do you know what it means? Because there are TWO meanings. It is just a silly little bit of poetry if you do not know the secret code.
This is a real life example of Cockney rhyming slang and it decrypts to Have you money to buy a cup of tea for me? I am poor.
Here's the distinction I would make--and this is just me looking at the rule and applying it to different situations in gameplay. If the writing was done for the purposes of direct communication, as languages generally are, then the invocation allows you to read and understand the writing. If the writing was done to deceive, obscure, or encrypt, then you can still read what is literally and visually being depicted, though it may not carry an accurate meaning.
With that in mind, the Eyes of the Rune Keeper invocation would not allow someone to read and understand the scrawlings of thieves' cant. They might get "The rooster crows at midnight" but they won't get "If you are looking for the snitch, he is going to be at the guard outpost tonight to confess to the crime and give up the names of his co-conspirators."
That's how I see it, at least.
"Not all those who wander are lost"