The problem in you example is that you assume that in the first case, you don’t roll deception for the hobgoblin. Insight, passive or active, is always a deception vs [Tooltip Not Found] check if someone is trying to lie. So what you would actually do is roll deception for the hobgoblin. If you rolled an 8, you can simply tell the player with a 14 passive that “as he is saying this, you feel he is being completely honest” or some variation. But if the DM rolled a 15 or higher, they would have to ask “do I believe him” and it would be a roll, needing to match or beat the DM roll.
eh... I respectfully disagree with this assessment.
The problem in you example is that you assume that in the first case, you don’t roll deception for the hobgoblin. Insight, passive or active, is always a deception vs [Tooltip Not Found] check if someone is trying to lie. So what you would actually do is roll deception for the hobgoblin. If you rolled an 8, you can simply tell the player with a 14 passive that “as he is saying this, you feel he is being completely honest” or some variation. But if the DM rolled a 15 or higher, they would have to ask “do I believe him” and it would be a roll, needing to match or beat the DM roll.
eh... I respectfully disagree with this assessment.
The problem in you example is that you assume that in the first case, you don’t roll deception for the hobgoblin. Insight, passive or active, is always a deception vs Insightcheck if someone is trying to lie. So what you would actually do is roll deception for the hobgoblin. If you rolled an 8, you can simply tell the player with a 14 passive that “as he is saying this, you don't feel he is being completely honest” or some variation. But if the DM rolled a 15 or higher, they would have to ask “do I believe him” and it would be a roll, needing to match or beat the DM roll.
I edited my original, it should have been an indication that you don't believe them
What part of that assessment do you disagree with? That unless a player ask if they believe someone you should be rolling deception?
You said it's always a contested skill check and I just don't think it's necessary to do that with the NPC in this case. I would pick a DC to represent the hobgoblin's skill at deception and go with that for the sake of minimizing dice rolls in general, not tipping my hand by calling for and rolling a contested check out of nowhere that the player might lose with nothing to show for it, and preserving the flow of gameplay by letting a secret stay a secret if appropriate. Call it a comparison of passive scores if you like, although I don't even think about it that formally. The bottom line is that all of this is happening behind the scenes in my mind anyway, so nobody else at the table knows that there is something else to be known unless/until someone decides to actively make an insight check. If that happens, then the player is driving the narrative, and I will respond accordingly. My second example from the post you quoted is much more in line with the vibe of the party at my table.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just disagreeing that my way of handling it is a problem.
I have a character that I am working on and am excited to play who is going to be taking this very concept to extremes. Observant feat, expertise, high wisdom, reliable talent, etc. . . . As a player, I would ask my DM to not allow that, and force me to roll each time.
If the character is distracted, then the Passives are ignored. If the character is actively utilizing the skills, then the roll represents the final result.
So if you are going to have your DM make you roll, why even bother taking Observant? If you are ignoring the value of it what the heck good is it?
"If the character is distracted then the Passives are ignored" - how does that make any sense, what definition of the word passive are you using? distracted, not focusing on something, that sounds exactly when a PASSIVE ability would kick in.
I agree that Passive Perception Never Rolls.. but do they have to.. to me a passive is like a trap.. that is in the way. it is a DC.. but.. what if distracted. the DC doesn't change, but I would think the roller gets advantage against it.. if contested.
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Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Here is the original issue I had before READING: What is the Raw for Passive Perception, and Investigation, when under the "Observant". Is Passive use considered a "bonus action", [ a "free action" not costing BA, ] or a non-verbalized action. (i.e. passive [action] disappears when taking actions..) In stead of perhaps the DM giving, the creature rolling advantage, against a busy passive [or lowering the passive "DC" by -2 to -5].
This Character [that brought up the issue] considers himself an Investigator of noble crime, and affairs of broken honor. So active investigation rolls would be common.. but this gives explicitly bonus to passive, he goes from 13 to 18. Is this the old "taking 10" reclothed and limited to three [Ins., Inv., & Per.]- in this question- two items [Inv., & Per.].
Is passive valid against a contested roll, is it.. [It almost sounds like it was Specificly designed for stealth and such] is it in spite of wording added to regular roles, where is this +5's use restricted.
as I am relatively new tp the 5th.. am attempting to work out what "community Standards" are and why.. so can best understand the characters choices and when & where to use them.
My character is LG golden dragonborn.. whose Flaw.. As rolled ["what could I roll that I can't deal with.. ' 'Hold my beer' ';] is Girls.
So he went noble knight; and is married to both his Dame "Valet", and Missy (Mistress of the Board) "cook", so built in "distractions" to protect his honor and virtue, in settlements and court.
So while the Lord-knight Brevet Investigator; prominades the "City Square" a noted entrance area to the those not members of the guild of the underground to to the Actual Physical underground. He is protected from his flaw, by the "girls", and possibly distracted by them. So is there RAW/RAI.. on such distractions. And combining the levels of such distractions with other distractions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
You said it's always a contested skill check and I just don't think it's necessary to do that with the NPC in this case. I would pick a DC to represent the hobgoblin's skill at deception and go with that for the sake of minimizing dice rolls in general, not tipping my hand by calling for and rolling a contested check out of nowhere that the player might lose with nothing to show for it, and preserving the flow of gameplay by letting a secret stay a secret if appropriate. Call it a comparison of passive scores if you like, although I don't even think about it that formally. The bottom line is that all of this is happening behind the scenes in my mind anyway, so nobody else at the table knows that there is something else to be known unless/until someone decides to actively make an insight check. If that happens, then the player is driving the narrative, and I will respond accordingly. My second example from the post you quoted is much more in line with the vibe of the party at my table.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just disagreeing that my way of handling it is a problem.
Sure, and you can set a DC rather than rolling, my point was simply that if someone is lying, you should roll (or set a DC) for that and you know if one of your players has a high enough passive to pass that check (rolled/DC), then they should know the creature is lying. If they don't and ask they can roll for it, but the DC of the roll should already be higher than the passive score.
My current character has a passive insight of 13. If we were interacting with a creature who was a really bad liar, they said something I didn't believe and I roll an 11 against a DC 10, I am going to ask why I even had to roll that, I should have already known.
So is there RAW/RAI.. on such distractions. And combining the levels of such distractions with other distractions.
You are getting into some "off book" questions. When it comes to character flaws that is a conversation for you and your DM to figure out how you want to handle that, maybe you would have a roll at disadvantage in a crowded market with lots of women, maybe it would be a -2 if there are 3 or 4 women, maybe you can control it better in certain situations so that it doesn't affect you at all. He is a knight, so maybe in a royal setting he isn't affected, but if your adventure requires you question someone at the local brothel, them maybe it becomes more an issue. That is really going to have to be a conversation, maybe more than one.
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It's like you guys didn't fully read my post before responding. All the things you question are answered.
eh... I respectfully disagree with this assessment.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The problem in you example is that you assume that in the first case, you don’t roll deception for the hobgoblin. Insight, passive or active, is always a deception vs Insightcheck if someone is trying to lie. So what you would actually do is roll deception for the hobgoblin. If you rolled an 8, you can simply tell the player with a 14 passive that “as he is saying this, you don't feel he is being completely honest” or some variation. But if the DM rolled a 15 or higher, they would have to ask “do I believe him” and it would be a roll, needing to match or beat the DM roll.
I edited my original, it should have been an indication that you don't believe them
What part of that assessment do you disagree with? That unless a player ask if they believe someone you should be rolling deception?
You said it's always a contested skill check and I just don't think it's necessary to do that with the NPC in this case. I would pick a DC to represent the hobgoblin's skill at deception and go with that for the sake of minimizing dice rolls in general, not tipping my hand by calling for and rolling a contested check out of nowhere that the player might lose with nothing to show for it, and preserving the flow of gameplay by letting a secret stay a secret if appropriate. Call it a comparison of passive scores if you like, although I don't even think about it that formally. The bottom line is that all of this is happening behind the scenes in my mind anyway, so nobody else at the table knows that there is something else to be known unless/until someone decides to actively make an insight check. If that happens, then the player is driving the narrative, and I will respond accordingly. My second example from the post you quoted is much more in line with the vibe of the party at my table.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just disagreeing that my way of handling it is a problem.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree that Passive Perception Never Rolls.. but do they have to.. to me a passive is like a trap.. that is in the way.
it is a DC.. but.. what if distracted.
the DC doesn't change, but I would think the roller gets advantage against it.. if contested.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Now after reading the whole thread:
Here is the original issue I had before READING:
What is the Raw for Passive Perception, and Investigation, when under the "Observant".
Is Passive use considered a "bonus action", [ a "free action" not costing BA, ] or a non-verbalized action. (i.e. passive [action] disappears when taking actions..)
In stead of perhaps the DM giving, the creature rolling advantage, against a busy passive [or lowering the passive "DC" by -2 to -5].
This Character [that brought up the issue] considers himself an Investigator of noble crime, and affairs of broken honor.
So active investigation rolls would be common.. but this gives explicitly bonus to passive, he goes from 13 to 18.
Is this the old "taking 10" reclothed and limited to three [Ins., Inv., & Per.]- in this question- two items [Inv., & Per.].
Is passive valid against a contested roll, is it.. [It almost sounds like it was Specificly designed for stealth and such]
is it in spite of wording added to regular roles, where is this +5's use restricted.
as I am relatively new tp the 5th.. am attempting to work out what "community Standards" are and why.. so can best understand the characters choices and when & where to use them.
My character is LG golden dragonborn.. whose Flaw.. As rolled ["what could I roll that I can't deal with.. ' 'Hold my beer' ';] is Girls.
So he went noble knight; and is married to both his Dame "Valet", and Missy (Mistress of the Board) "cook", so built in "distractions" to protect his honor and virtue, in settlements and court.
So while the Lord-knight Brevet Investigator; prominades the "City Square" a noted entrance area to the those not members of the guild of the underground to to the Actual Physical underground. He is protected from his flaw, by the "girls", and possibly distracted by them.
So is there RAW/RAI.. on such distractions. And combining the levels of such distractions with other distractions.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Sure, and you can set a DC rather than rolling, my point was simply that if someone is lying, you should roll (or set a DC) for that and you know if one of your players has a high enough passive to pass that check (rolled/DC), then they should know the creature is lying. If they don't and ask they can roll for it, but the DC of the roll should already be higher than the passive score.
My current character has a passive insight of 13. If we were interacting with a creature who was a really bad liar, they said something I didn't believe and I roll an 11 against a DC 10, I am going to ask why I even had to roll that, I should have already known.
You are getting into some "off book" questions. When it comes to character flaws that is a conversation for you and your DM to figure out how you want to handle that, maybe you would have a roll at disadvantage in a crowded market with lots of women, maybe it would be a -2 if there are 3 or 4 women, maybe you can control it better in certain situations so that it doesn't affect you at all. He is a knight, so maybe in a royal setting he isn't affected, but if your adventure requires you question someone at the local brothel, them maybe it becomes more an issue. That is really going to have to be a conversation, maybe more than one.