I have a rogue who uses thrown daggers, with the nick mastery I can use my offhand dagger bonus action attack as part of my action. The thrown weapon master feat from Grim Hollow has the following ability: Multithrow. When you take the Attack action to make a ranged attack roll using a Simple weapon that has the Thrown property, you can make two additional ranged attacks using Simple weapons that have the Thrown property as a Bonus Action.
Am I making attacking four times using both? Or am i completely misunderstanding.
You are not misunderstanding anything. With these features you could throw two Daggers with your action, then another two with your bonus action.
On a side note, when you throw Daggers, if you were to only draw them as you throw them, so that you are only ever holding one weapon, you could also benefit from the Dueling fighting style (as throwing a dagger counts as an attack with a melee weapon).
I think I found where my player was going wrong. He thought Shadow Blade was a free return weapon. It, in fact, requires a Bonus Action to resummon it after throwing/dropping it. I thought something was fishy when he did it in game.
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Yup. Assuming the DM allows 3rd party content- this could be considered an example of why some DMs prefer not to use it, though really for a 4th tier character it's not that dramatic.
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
Consider he'd only have 1 less attack if he took the Dual Wielder feat instead of thrown weapon master, it is unclear to me why that would be a balance problem.
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
You have a lot of attacks to throw a dagger, isn't a dagger only a 1d4? It seems like you need a lot of daggers to do damage. So you get 9 attacks, you throw 9 daggers. They don't return, so now you have to draw 9 more next turn. You have just thrown 18 different daggers. Isn't there a point that you run out of daggers to throw?
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
You have a lot of attacks to throw a dagger, isn't a dagger only a 1d4? It seems like you need a lot of daggers to do damage. So you get 9 attacks, you throw 9 daggers. They don't return, so now you have to draw 9 more next turn. You have just thrown 18 different daggers. Isn't there a point that you run out of daggers to throw?
The ability score mod would be carrying a lot of the clout- that’s 45 potential from it as opposed to the 35 guaranteed damage a PAM build would do with its Action attacks, 1 Bonus Action attack, and 1 potential Reaction attack. And you can potentially add another 14 or so fixed damage to the daggers from Dueling if you finesse the hand economy a bit.
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
You have a lot of attacks to throw a dagger, isn't a dagger only a 1d4? It seems like you need a lot of daggers to do damage. So you get 9 attacks, you throw 9 daggers. They don't return, so now you have to draw 9 more next turn. You have just thrown 18 different daggers. Isn't there a point that you run out of daggers to throw?
The ability score mod would be carrying a lot of the clout- that’s 45 potential from it as opposed to the 35 guaranteed damage a PAM build would do with its Action attacks, 1 Bonus Action attack, and 1 potential Reaction attack. And you can potentially add another 14 or so fixed damage to the daggers from Dueling if you finesse the hand economy a bit.
My question is more on how many daggers you have to have/carry. Isn't there a point where you run out of daggers to throw? It is not so much weight (16oz per) and I know people do not track volume, but there does seem to be a point that one can only carry so many daggers.
RAW there’s no limit to how many you can have at hand short of encumbrance, there were already a couple magic daggers or items for teleporting a thrown weapon back, and the new Eberron book made them uncommon +1 weapons. Ammo isn’t really an issue.
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
You have a lot of attacks to throw a dagger, isn't a dagger only a 1d4? It seems like you need a lot of daggers to do damage. So you get 9 attacks, you throw 9 daggers. They don't return, so now you have to draw 9 more next turn. You have just thrown 18 different daggers. Isn't there a point that you run out of daggers to throw?
The ability score mod would be carrying a lot of the clout- that’s 45 potential from it as opposed to the 35 guaranteed damage a PAM build would do with its Action attacks, 1 Bonus Action attack, and 1 potential Reaction attack. And you can potentially add another 14 or so fixed damage to the daggers from Dueling if you finesse the hand economy a bit.
My question is more on how many daggers you have to have/carry. Isn't there a point where you run out of daggers to throw? It is not so much weight (16oz per) and I know people do not track volume, but there does seem to be a point that one can only carry so many daggers.
I agree, it would get crazy. If you figure a fight could last five rounds that 45 daggers at least (or 1 if you somehow got a returning dagger, which at level 20 would be very reasonable). And probably this build would be dex based so the weight would really add up if you track encumbrance, but that’s going to be up to a DM to enforce.
Though at that point I’d also start looking at the archer who never seems to run out of arrows and hasn’t bought new ones since first level.
I’d say closer to 40; AoOs aren’t super common in my experience, plus this build would probably prefer to be standing back a few spaces if it’s mostly throwing. Still a pretty gratuitous amount, but daggers are only 1 lb each. At 10 STR you’ve got 150 carrying capacity and even the 45 aren’t quite a third of that, and if you’re using DEX you’ll presumably have Light Armor.
I’d say closer to 40; AoOs aren’t super common in my experience, plus this build would probably prefer to be standing back a few spaces if it’s mostly throwing. Still a pretty gratuitous amount, but daggers are only 1 lb each. At 10 STR you’ve got 150 carrying capacity and even the 45 aren’t quite a third of that, and if you’re using DEX you’ll presumably have Light Armor.
And since daggers aren't ammunition, presumably you can generally retrieve them after combat.
My question is more on how many daggers you have to have/carry. Isn't there a point where you run out of daggers to throw? It is not so much weight (16oz per) and I know people do not track volume, but there does seem to be a point that one can only carry so many daggers.
All you need is two. One Returning Dagger is an Uncommon Item (so, technically, 502 GP and 1 pound.) It is +1 to attacks and damage and returns to you immediately after each attack, allowing you to attack with only that dagger multiple times per turn. For the Light property, you need a second Light weapon, but it can also be a dagger. Let's assume two Returning Daggers. At the level that a Fighter gets 4 attacks, two Returning Daggers should be a reasonable acquisition. So, from a purely weapon damage, with this feat and Haste, a fighter could deal 9 attacks averaging 31.5 (including the +1 to damage) and a +5 attribute would mean another 40 damage (8 attacks qualify for the attribute, 1 doesn't). A fighter specializing in throwing pointy things probably has the Thrown Weapon Fighting feat and so that is another 18 damage if all attacks hit. This brings us to a total of 89.5 damage per round. Normally, the system assumes that you will have a 65% chance of hitting an on-level encounter but with a +1 to hit, this becomes 70%. Using this to normalize the damage per round, this would be 63.78 damage per round still leaving one hand free.
Actually, technically, the Fighter could spend one of their feats to pick up the Dueling Fighting Style feat and since throwing one dagger in one hand meets the requirement for Dueling (you draw and throw as part of the attack so you can actually switch weapons as part of the attack and never have a weapon in your other hand) and Thrown Weapon Master, that would be another +2 damage per hit, bringing the average dagger damage up to 12.5 damager per hit (7.5 for the Nick attack), the average DPR up to 107.5, and the normalized DPR to 76.38. That is just normal attacks with two uncommon magic items that do not require attunement ... and Haste, but still. Now, just find a way to apply Hex or Hunter's Mark for up 9D6 extra damage.
I have a rogue who uses thrown daggers, with the nick mastery I can use my offhand dagger bonus action attack as part of my action. The thrown weapon master feat from Grim Hollow has the following ability: Multithrow. When you take the Attack action to make a ranged attack roll using a Simple weapon that has the Thrown property, you can make two additional ranged attacks using Simple weapons that have the Thrown property as a Bonus Action.
Am I making attacking four times using both? Or am i completely misunderstanding.
You could make up to 4 ranged attacks with Daggers;
1 ranged attack [Attack Action]
1 ranged attack [Thrown Weapon Master]
1 ranged attack [Thrown Weapon Master]
1 melee or ranged attack [Nick Mastery]
You are not misunderstanding anything. With these features you could throw two Daggers with your action, then another two with your bonus action.
On a side note, when you throw Daggers, if you were to only draw them as you throw them, so that you are only ever holding one weapon, you could also benefit from the Dueling fighting style (as throwing a dagger counts as an attack with a melee weapon).
I have a question about if Shadow Blade works with this feat.
Turn 1: Cast Shadow Blade
Turn 2: Action to throw Shadow Blade, Nick with Dagger, then throw Shadow Blade twice as a Bonus Action with Shadow Blade that returns with Feat
At level 7, a Rogue/Warlock is outputting 8d6+1d4 if he hits all 3 Shadow Blade throws, his Nick Dagger, and gets Sneak Attack Damage on one of them.
Does this work? Can you throw Shadow Blade 3 times?
I think I found where my player was going wrong. He thought Shadow Blade was a free return weapon. It, in fact, requires a Bonus Action to resummon it after throwing/dropping it. I thought something was fishy when he did it in game.
Sooo...
20th Fighter, 4 attacks with daggers, +1 nick attack, +2 thrown weapon master feat, +1 if Hasted, +1 if an attack of opportunity presents itself would be 9 attacks.
Is the math mathing?
Yup. Assuming the DM allows 3rd party content- this could be considered an example of why some DMs prefer not to use it, though really for a 4th tier character it's not that dramatic.
Yes. However, when you have qualified for, and possibly resolved, the thrown and Nick attacks, might as well switch a Cleave weapon for a potential additional attack against a second target.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Consider he'd only have 1 less attack if he took the Dual Wielder feat instead of thrown weapon master, it is unclear to me why that would be a balance problem.
Fair point
You have a lot of attacks to throw a dagger, isn't a dagger only a 1d4? It seems like you need a lot of daggers to do damage. So you get 9 attacks, you throw 9 daggers. They don't return, so now you have to draw 9 more next turn. You have just thrown 18 different daggers. Isn't there a point that you run out of daggers to throw?
The ability score mod would be carrying a lot of the clout- that’s 45 potential from it as opposed to the 35 guaranteed damage a PAM build would do with its Action attacks, 1 Bonus Action attack, and 1 potential Reaction attack. And you can potentially add another 14 or so fixed damage to the daggers from Dueling if you finesse the hand economy a bit.
My question is more on how many daggers you have to have/carry. Isn't there a point where you run out of daggers to throw? It is not so much weight (16oz per) and I know people do not track volume, but there does seem to be a point that one can only carry so many daggers.
RAW there’s no limit to how many you can have at hand short of encumbrance, there were already a couple magic daggers or items for teleporting a thrown weapon back, and the new Eberron book made them uncommon +1 weapons. Ammo isn’t really an issue.
I agree, it would get crazy. If you figure a fight could last five rounds that 45 daggers at least (or 1 if you somehow got a returning dagger, which at level 20 would be very reasonable). And probably this build would be dex based so the weight would really add up if you track encumbrance, but that’s going to be up to a DM to enforce.
Though at that point I’d also start looking at the archer who never seems to run out of arrows and hasn’t bought new ones since first level.
I’d say closer to 40; AoOs aren’t super common in my experience, plus this build would probably prefer to be standing back a few spaces if it’s mostly throwing. Still a pretty gratuitous amount, but daggers are only 1 lb each. At 10 STR you’ve got 150 carrying capacity and even the 45 aren’t quite a third of that, and if you’re using DEX you’ll presumably have Light Armor.
And since daggers aren't ammunition, presumably you can generally retrieve them after combat.
All you need is two. One Returning Dagger is an Uncommon Item (so, technically, 502 GP and 1 pound.) It is +1 to attacks and damage and returns to you immediately after each attack, allowing you to attack with only that dagger multiple times per turn. For the Light property, you need a second Light weapon, but it can also be a dagger. Let's assume two Returning Daggers. At the level that a Fighter gets 4 attacks, two Returning Daggers should be a reasonable acquisition. So, from a purely weapon damage, with this feat and Haste, a fighter could deal 9 attacks averaging 31.5 (including the +1 to damage) and a +5 attribute would mean another 40 damage (8 attacks qualify for the attribute, 1 doesn't). A fighter specializing in throwing pointy things probably has the Thrown Weapon Fighting feat and so that is another 18 damage if all attacks hit. This brings us to a total of 89.5 damage per round. Normally, the system assumes that you will have a 65% chance of hitting an on-level encounter but with a +1 to hit, this becomes 70%. Using this to normalize the damage per round, this would be 63.78 damage per round still leaving one hand free.
Actually, technically, the Fighter could spend one of their feats to pick up the Dueling Fighting Style feat and since throwing one dagger in one hand meets the requirement for Dueling (you draw and throw as part of the attack so you can actually switch weapons as part of the attack and never have a weapon in your other hand) and Thrown Weapon Master, that would be another +2 damage per hit, bringing the average dagger damage up to 12.5 damager per hit (7.5 for the Nick attack), the average DPR up to 107.5, and the normalized DPR to 76.38. That is just normal attacks with two uncommon magic items that do not require attunement ... and Haste, but still. Now, just find a way to apply Hex or Hunter's Mark for up 9D6 extra damage.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.