Many of the Epic Boons player characters get at level 19 allow them to increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 30. Is there a way for players to get their ability scores to 30 without relying on magic items or special blessings? Before level 19, ability scores are capped at a max of 20, so theres no way for a player to already have a score close to 30 at level 19. Some classes like Barbarian and Monk get big ASI boosts at level 20, but with a +4 to their scores they are looking at getting a 25 at best.
Does the maximum of 30 granted by the Epic Boon add anything?
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Usually the game feature that allow your ability score increase by X, to a maximum of Y, setting the cap itself. 20 is the highest an adventurer’s score can go unless a feature says otherwise, which could be 25 or 30 being the highest a score can go. Besides Epic Boons or magic items i can't think of any way to get to 30.
Ability scores aren't actually capped at 20 in any absolute sense. It's just that most of the things you can use to raise them — such as the Ability Score Improvement feat — don't allow you to raise them above 20 using those things. While it's true that most of the exceptions are Epic Boon feats or single-use magic items, high-level characters tend to get all kinds of weird non-standard rewards from the DM.
Ability scores aren't actually capped at 20 in any absolute sense. It's just that most of the things you can use to raise them — such as the Ability Score Improvement feat — don't allow you to raise them above 20 using those things. While it's true that most of the exceptions are Epic Boon feats or single-use magic items, high-level characters tend to get all kinds of weird non-standard rewards from the DM.
I think I see what you're saying, but the language is still confusing. To demonstrate, compare the two abilites below
Boon of Fate (Epic Boon): Ability Score Increase. Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 30.
Primal Champion (Barbarian Capstone): Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, and their maximum is now 25.
Would I be correct in saying that the first option raises the potential maximum only when considering the +1 increase, whereas the later just changes the maximum that can be achieved at any time, regardless of how close the +4 increase gets you?
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Many of the Epic Boons player characters get at level 19 allow them to increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 30. Is there a way for players to get their ability scores to 30 without relying on magic items or special blessings? Before level 19, ability scores are capped at a max of 20, so theres no way for a player to already have a score close to 30 at level 19. Some classes like Barbarian and Monk get big ASI boosts at level 20, but with a +4 to their scores they are looking at getting a 25 at best.
Does the maximum of 30 granted by the Epic Boon add anything?
Keep in mind that you can continue to earn experience after level 20 and every 30,000 allows you to gain another feat. This appears to be an optional rule but it is not clearly called out as such. See Bonus Feats At Level 20.
However, you place an undue limitation on the question. The Epic Boon Feats do not exist outside of magic items and blessings. They are part of a game with Wish (there are no explicit guidelines for increasing attributes but it can swap out feats you took - past tense - for feats you qualify for - present tense. These could be Epic Boons) and [items]Tome of Understanding[/spells], among other things. The restriction prevents you from stacking the effects beyond certain values.
Take a look at some of the following items:
The Deck of Many Things can increase an attribute by 2 to a maximum of 22 or 24 depending on which card (Star or Balance) you get.
The Book of Exalted Deeds can increase Wisdom by 2 to a maximum of 24. Alternatively, the Book of Vile Darkness does not restrict the ability improved.
The Tome of Understanding can increase Wisdom by 2 to a maximum of 30. There is a Tome or Manual for each attribute. Technically, these are repeatable/reusable, but in practice you would need multiple copies of a very rare item unless you have 100 years of downtime.
Between those 3 item sets, you can get +6 to one attribute, However, depending on the item, the class, and other factors, you have do things in a specific order.
For example, a Wizard with a 21 Intelligence at level 20 (from an Epic Boon) can use the Deck of Many Things (the Star) to reach 23 and then a Book of Vile Darkness to reach 24. Afterwards, a Tome of Clear Thought can be used to reach 26. If Tome is used before the Book or the Deck, then they can only reach 24. If however, the wizard uses the Deck and the Book at level 18, before acquiring the Boon, then they could have a 20 + 2 (Deck, max 22 or 24) + 2 (Book, max 24) +1 (Boon, max 30) + 2 (Tome, max 30) = 27.
However, if you are a Barbarian with a 20 Constitution at level 18, you could have a 21 from an Epic Boon at 19. When you add in Primal Champion at level 20, you reach a 25. The Star or Balance cards and the Book of Vile Darkness won't help at all but a Manual of Bodily Health would get you to 27. After that, 3 more Epic Boons and you hit 30. Note that using the Deck of Many things or Book of Vile Darkness first would help but using the Manual of Bodily Health before Primal Champion would leave you at 25 (21 + 2, max 30 = 23; 23 + 4, max 25 = 25).
In addition, if you are multiclassing, at level 18, a 15/3 character who then takes 1 level in each class qualifies for two epic boons. Again, starting with a 20, drawing the Balance or Sun Card, and then using the Book of Exalted Deeds or Book of Vile Darkness at level 18, before gaining the Epic Boons and using a Tome/Manual would allow for a 20 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 28.
I won't call that easy to get close to the limits of the maximum of 30 but between RAW opportunities in currently updated products, future products, and third party options, the limit is prudent.
Would I be correct in saying that the first option raises the potential maximum only when considering the +1 increase, whereas the later just changes the maximum that can be achieved at any time, regardless of how close the +4 increase gets you?
Bear in mind that the 2024 rules don't say that it increases your maximum, that's the 2014 text. The 2024 rules say "You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25."
Ability scores aren't actually capped at 20 in any absolute sense. It's just that most of the things you can use to raise them — such as the Ability Score Improvement feat — don't allow you to raise them above 20 using those things. While it's true that most of the exceptions are Epic Boon feats or single-use magic items, high-level characters tend to get all kinds of weird non-standard rewards from the DM.
The default maximum actually is 20 by rule:
Ability Scores
Each ability has a score from 1 to 20, although some monsters have a score as high as 30. The score represents the magnitude of an ability. The Ability Scores table summarizes what the scores mean.
20
This is the highest an adventurer’s score can go unless a feature says otherwise.
How the game works is that you once you've determine ability scores, you can't adjust them above 20 via Background. The game feature the game feature that allow your ability score increase usually set a maximum, which start at 20 until a feature let you go above that ex. 25 or 30. For example;
Adjust Ability Scores.After assigning your ability scores, adjust them according to your background. Your background lists three abilities; increase one of those scores by 2 and a different one by 1, or increase all three by 1. None of these increases can raise a score above 20.
Ability Scores. A background lists three of your character’s ability scores. Increase one by 2 and another one by 1, or increase all three by 1. None of these increases can raise a score above 20.
Feat: Ability Score Improvement. Increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. This feat can’t increase an ability score above 20.
Feat: Grappler. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Feat Boon of Combat Prowess. Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 30.
Feature: Body & Mind. You have developed your body and mind to new heights. Your Dexterity and Wisdom scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Feature: Primal Champion. You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Magic Item: Manual Of Bodily Health.. your Constitution increases by 2, to a maximum of 30.
Magic Item: Tome of Clear Thoughts...your Intelligence increases by 2, to a maximum of 30.
Would I be correct in saying that the first option raises the potential maximum only when considering the +1 increase, whereas the later just changes the maximum that can be achieved at any time, regardless of how close the +4 increase gets you?
Bear in mind that the 2024 rules don't say that it increases your maximum, that's the 2014 text. The 2024 rules say "You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25."
Are you sure? I am looking at the Barbarian rules on D&D Beyond (which should be updated to 2024 basic rules by default) and it says "You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, and their maximum is now 25."
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Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Confusingly, the compendium page for the 2024 Barbarian in the iOS app has the wording that Kaboom quoted. The digital Player’s Handbook has the version you quoted. Not sure what’s going on there.
Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Confusingly, the compendium page for the 2024 Barbarian in the iOS app has the wording that Kaboom quoted. Not sure what’s going on there.
Yes. This is all very strange. But I decided to get off my butt and grab my hard copy of the 2024 PHB and the language agrees it is "to a maximum of 25"
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Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Confusingly, the compendium page for the 2024 Barbarian in the iOS app has the wording that Kaboom quoted. The digital Player’s Handbook has the version you quoted. Not sure what’s going on there.
It's typo in the PHB online version. In any case of discrepency, i'd refer to the original printed version which didn't get any errata;
Primal Champion You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Confusingly, the compendium page for the 2024 Barbarian in the iOS app has the wording that Kaboom quoted. The digital Player’s Handbook has the version you quoted. Not sure what’s going on there.
It's typo in the PHB online version. In any case of discrepency, i'd refer to the original printed version which didn't get any errata;
Primal Champion You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Many of the Epic Boons player characters get at level 19 allow them to increase one ability score by 1, to a maximum of 30. Is there a way for players to get their ability scores to 30 without relying on magic items or special blessings? Before level 19, ability scores are capped at a max of 20, so theres no way for a player to already have a score close to 30 at level 19. Some classes like Barbarian and Monk get big ASI boosts at level 20, but with a +4 to their scores they are looking at getting a 25 at best.
Does the maximum of 30 granted by the Epic Boon add anything?
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Usually the game feature that allow your ability score increase by X, to a maximum of Y, setting the cap itself. 20 is the highest an adventurer’s score can go unless a feature says otherwise, which could be 25 or 30 being the highest a score can go. Besides Epic Boons or magic items i can't think of any way to get to 30.
Ability scores aren't actually capped at 20 in any absolute sense. It's just that most of the things you can use to raise them — such as the Ability Score Improvement feat — don't allow you to raise them above 20 using those things. While it's true that most of the exceptions are Epic Boon feats or single-use magic items, high-level characters tend to get all kinds of weird non-standard rewards from the DM.
pronouns: he/she/they
I think I see what you're saying, but the language is still confusing. To demonstrate, compare the two abilites below
Boon of Fate (Epic Boon): Ability Score Increase. Increase one ability score of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 30.
Primal Champion (Barbarian Capstone): Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, and their maximum is now 25.
Would I be correct in saying that the first option raises the potential maximum only when considering the +1 increase, whereas the later just changes the maximum that can be achieved at any time, regardless of how close the +4 increase gets you?
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Keep in mind that you can continue to earn experience after level 20 and every 30,000 allows you to gain another feat. This appears to be an optional rule but it is not clearly called out as such. See Bonus Feats At Level 20.
However, you place an undue limitation on the question. The Epic Boon Feats do not exist outside of magic items and blessings. They are part of a game with Wish (there are no explicit guidelines for increasing attributes but it can swap out feats you took - past tense - for feats you qualify for - present tense. These could be Epic Boons) and [items]Tome of Understanding[/spells], among other things. The restriction prevents you from stacking the effects beyond certain values.
Take a look at some of the following items:
Between those 3 item sets, you can get +6 to one attribute, However, depending on the item, the class, and other factors, you have do things in a specific order.
For example, a Wizard with a 21 Intelligence at level 20 (from an Epic Boon) can use the Deck of Many Things (the Star) to reach 23 and then a Book of Vile Darkness to reach 24. Afterwards, a Tome of Clear Thought can be used to reach 26. If Tome is used before the Book or the Deck, then they can only reach 24. If however, the wizard uses the Deck and the Book at level 18, before acquiring the Boon, then they could have a 20 + 2 (Deck, max 22 or 24) + 2 (Book, max 24) +1 (Boon, max 30) + 2 (Tome, max 30) = 27.
However, if you are a Barbarian with a 20 Constitution at level 18, you could have a 21 from an Epic Boon at 19. When you add in Primal Champion at level 20, you reach a 25. The Star or Balance cards and the Book of Vile Darkness won't help at all but a Manual of Bodily Health would get you to 27. After that, 3 more Epic Boons and you hit 30. Note that using the Deck of Many things or Book of Vile Darkness first would help but using the Manual of Bodily Health before Primal Champion would leave you at 25 (21 + 2, max 30 = 23; 23 + 4, max 25 = 25).
In addition, if you are multiclassing, at level 18, a 15/3 character who then takes 1 level in each class qualifies for two epic boons. Again, starting with a 20, drawing the Balance or Sun Card, and then using the Book of Exalted Deeds or Book of Vile Darkness at level 18, before gaining the Epic Boons and using a Tome/Manual would allow for a 20 + 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 2 = 28.
I won't call that easy to get close to the limits of the maximum of 30 but between RAW opportunities in currently updated products, future products, and third party options, the limit is prudent.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Bear in mind that the 2024 rules don't say that it increases your maximum, that's the 2014 text. The 2024 rules say "You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25."
The default maximum actually is 20 by rule:
How the game works is that you once you've determine ability scores, you can't adjust them above 20 via Background. The game feature the game feature that allow your ability score increase usually set a maximum, which start at 20 until a feature let you go above that ex. 25 or 30. For example;
Are you sure? I am looking at the Barbarian rules on D&D Beyond (which should be updated to 2024 basic rules by default) and it says "You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, and their maximum is now 25."
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
D&D Beyond says;
Primal Champion (2014) At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Primal Champion (2024) You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
Confusingly, the compendium page for the 2024 Barbarian in the iOS app has the wording that Kaboom quoted. The digital Player’s Handbook has the version you quoted. Not sure what’s going on there.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yes. This is all very strange. But I decided to get off my butt and grab my hard copy of the 2024 PHB and the language agrees it is "to a maximum of 25"
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I’m gonna guess someone at DDB did a copy/paste of the 2014 version without looking at it too closely, or something like that.
pronouns: he/she/they
It's typo in the PHB online version. In any case of discrepency, i'd refer to the original printed version which didn't get any errata;
Primal Champion You embody primal power. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4, to a maximum of 25.
The 5.2.1 SRD also says the same as the PHB, as do the online basic rules and PHB, it's only the text on https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/2190875-barbarian that is wrong.
Just for clarity, the digital version of the PHB is correct and matches the physical version. The online compendium page for the class is what's different.
pronouns: he/she/they
Ok i thought it was the PHB version as the link i was looking myself was Basic rules.
I've just created a thread in the DDB Feedback subforum: Incorrect wording for Level 20: Primal Champion in the compendium - D&D Beyond Feedback