Subtle Spell and Circle Magic

If I am understanding the new rules on Circle Magic correctly, the only time that counterspell could be used to stop the action would be during the initial casting by the initiating player. If that player is a sorcerer, could they use subtle spell to prevent the circle magic attempt from being counterspelled? RAW it seems so, but is this as intended?

The rules specifically mention Counterspell and, yes, the only time you can Counterspell is when the primary caster starts the Circle. So you could negate an opponent's ability to Counterspell via Subtle Spell.

With that mind, Counterspell'ing a Circle spell would normally be a bad idea. For the duration of the casting, everyone needs to both maintain Concentration and stay within 30' of one another. If any of the participating casters don't meet these criteria at any point, the Circle cast fails - and it's a lot easier to disrupt the spell via proximity/Concentration than it would be to cast Counterspell.

Quote from j1udith >>

RAW there's nothing that says you can't, but bear in mind Magic Circle takes a minute to cast, it has consumed material components so you'll need to interact with those, and the spell description indicates that it makes visibly glowing runes on the floor and walls, so an otherworldly being would still likely notice. 

 This isn't about the Magic Circle spell, but Circle Magic from Forgotten Realms: Heroes of Faerûn.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/2083-circle-magic-and-new-spells-gain-mastery-over-the?srsltid=AfmBOooPQXx0d83bFGgkhPrf8EeF69Sooya2qYDCnOQy9nfnTQu2zGxJ

If a Reaction would trigger when a creature casts a spell—such as the Reaction taken to cast Counterspell —it also triggers when you take this action to initiate a Circle spell.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Edit: I'm wrong, it explicitly says Counterspell would trigger upon the primary caster taking the initial Magic action to start casting it.

Is anyone willing to quote a small snippet of text from the rules that confirms this?

Is the activity of the primary caster described similarly to when a spellcaster Readies a spell by fully casting it on their turn (losing the spell slot if something goes wrong after the casting but before the release of the effect) and then just holding onto the energy of the spell to delay the origination of the spell effect?  If that's what's going on, then it would make sense that Counterspell would only work while the primary caster is still in the middle of taking that initial Magic action.

In my opinion, this interpretation of how Counterspell interacts with Circle spells would also confirm the fact that the secondary spellcasters are not considered to be "casting" a spell for the purpose of the one leveled spell with a spell slot per turn rule.

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I'm also curious if someone could research this:  Are there options to cast a Circle spell with a variable number of contributors?  For example, could you cast a Circle spell such that two total spellcasters would cause a certain spell effect but three total spellcasters would cause an even greater effect?

If the above is possible, suppose the primary caster casts a single action Circle spell with the intention of having three total spellcasters (including himself) contribute to the spell.  Suppose the primary caster and the first secondary spellcaster have both successfully contributed to the spell, but then the second secondary spellcaster (the third total spellcaster) is knocked unconscious before having the chance to contribute to the spell.  Does the primary spellcaster have the option to just proceed by releasing the spell with the effect that is created by only two total spellcasters?

The answer to this hypothetical might greatly inform how possible it actually is to "prevent" the release of a Circle spell's effect once it has already been cast / initiated.

Hmm, ok, this makes it seem like the author is being careful to avoid specifying that the primary caster is the one that is casting the spell and that secondary casters are not actually casting it.  This also makes it seem as though the casting of this spell does not actually occur until the entire process is completed (and yet, spell slots can potentially be lost?) instead of being fully cast and then held for release.  This would have to be confirmed by the rest of the text for the mechanic though.  Something about how this works doesn't seem very consistent with the general rules for regular spellcasting so far.  Is Counterspell not called out as an option against the Magic action that is taken by secondary spellcasters?  How could the actual spellcasting process be ongoing and not yet completed but be ineligible to be Counterspelled?  Hopefully a lot of this is resolved by a careful reading of Heroes of Faerun, but so far it doesn't seem that way.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from up2ng >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Edit: I'm wrong, it explicitly says Counterspell would trigger upon the primary caster taking the initial Magic action to start casting it.

 

Is anyone willing to quote a small snippet of text from the rules that confirms this?

It's in the Circle Magic section of Heroes of Faerun:

Initiating a Circle Spell

You take a Magic action to initiate casting a Circle spell. When you do so, choose which Circle casting option (see "Circle Casting Options" below) you’re using for this casting; you must also meet any of the other requirements described in that option’s text. Until the Circle spell’s casting is complete (see below), you must maintain Concentration on the spell.

If a Reaction would trigger when a creature casts a spell—such as the Reaction taken to cast Counterspell—it also triggers when you take this action to initiate a Circle spell.

 

This says it also triggers when take the action to initiate the circle. It does not say that it doesn't trigger during the rest of the casting.

Counterspell would also be able to be triggered normally.

No, I clearly say that the initiating caster is a sorcerer using subtle spell. That’s why I’m asking. My interpretation of the wording is that since it can only be counterspelled during the initial act of casting by the initiating caster, then that caster could use subtle spell to prevent it from being counterspelled. The spell could still be disrupted if concentration is lost, but I’m trying to think through how my players may use this new feature.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Spell slots are not lost if the spell fails (for any reason, including Counterspell).

 

Ah, thank you for this detail.  I haven't seen this mentioned yet in these threads for this topic.  This makes it work differently than the concept that is used by the Ready action to ready a spell.  

It now sounds to me like the authors are saying that neither the Magic action used by the primary caster nor the Magic action used by any secondary caster is actually being used to cast the spell.  The casting of the spell doesn't actually happen until the very end at which point it just sort of happens instantaneously such that that part of the process cannot be countered.

Since the primary caster is the one to perform the requirements of the spell components during the moment of the initiating Magic action, it is this activity that can trigger the reaction for Counterspell (and if this activity is avoided through the use of Subtle Spell, then this entire spellcasting process cannot be Counterspelled).

Does all of that seem accurate based on the text?

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

"Also" in this context is meaning "in addition to the normal triggers for Counterspell", which don't include what the secondary casters are doing. It doesn't need to explicitly say that it doesn't trigger during the rest of the casting, because reactions tell you when they do trigger, not when they don't.

Counterspell's trigger is that you see a spell being cast. A spell is being cast until the last secondary spellcaster completes their last action (in the case of a spell that takes longer than 1 turn to cast). I quoted the post where you quoted the rule, but I should have probably quoted this post instead or as well:

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

I think the intent is for Counterspell to be capable of being triggered at any time during the casting of a spell, which would include when the secondary casters are doing their thing.

Edit: I'm wrong, it explicitly says Counterspell would trigger upon the primary caster taking the initial Magic action to start casting it.

However, it does say that the primary caster is the one who provides the spell's components, so it does seem like they could use Subtle Spell to make it un-interruptible, provided it doesn't have any costly or consumed material components.

If you walk in after the circle spell was initiated but before it finishes, you can Counterspell it just fine, as long as it meets the other requirements for Counterspell. The Counterspell reaction is not when a spellcasting is started or finished; it's any time you see a spell being cast. You can also Counterspell it when the circle spell is initiated. I only intended this to clarify the statement which I interpreted to mean that Counterspell only triggers when the Circle is initiated.

Because the rules make a distinction between a reaction in response to the circle being initiated and the spell being cast as separate trigger points, it is possible that the intention is that initiating the Circle is not casting a spell and Subtle spell might not apply until the spell last secondary caster completes their action, at which point, Subtle Spell could prevent the actual spell from being Counterspelled. However, I don't think this has actual RAW support.

As a single spellcaster, if you rule Counterspell can be used against your spells with Longer Casting Times, since you're casting and taking the Magic action on each of your turns, I'd say the same spell using Circle Magic could also be counterspelled during the duration of that casting, not just at the start.

EDIT: for clarity.

Quote from TragicCurse >>

If I am understanding the new rules on Circle Magic correctly, the only time that counterspell could be used to stop the action would be during the initial casting by the initiating player. If that player is a sorcerer, could they use subtle spell to prevent the circle magic attempt from being counterspelled? RAW it seems so, but is this as intended?

I think the issue here would be whether Subtle would apply, because the rules for Circle Spells explicitly differentiate it from a normal casting

Initiating a Circle Spell

You take a Magic action to initiate casting a Circle spell. When you do so, choose which Circle casting option (see "Circle Casting Options" below) you’re using for this casting; you must also meet any of the other requirements described in that option’s text. Until the Circle spell’s casting is complete (see below), you must maintain Concentration on the spell.

If a Reaction would trigger when a creature casts a spell—such as the Reaction taken to cast Counterspell—it also triggers when you take this action to initiate a Circle spell.

That said, the rule also refers to it as a "casting" multiple times, which is really all Subtle is looking for

Subtle Spell

Cost: 1 Sorcery Point

When you cast a spell, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to cast it without any Verbal, Somatic, or Material components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or that have a cost specified in the spell.

So I'd rule this works -- Subtle could be used by the initiating caster on a Circle Spell to prevent it from being Counterspelled. Subtle doesn't specify the spell has to have a casting time of 1 action or anything, so 1 sorcery point eliminates any VS and non-$ M for the entirely of the casting

You could even choose the Supplant option and eliminate the need for M components with value too, if you wanted

Supplant

When you cast a spell that requires at least one Material component with a specified cost that is consumed by the spell, you can reduce the minimum cost of one such Material component by 50 GP per each secondary caster contributing to the spell. For example, casting Revivify as a Circle spell with two secondary casters would reduce the Material component’s minimum cost to 200 GP.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Nothing that the secondary casters are doing triggers Counterspell.

I would agree with this

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

"Also" in this context is meaning "in addition to the normal triggers for Counterspell", which don't include what the secondary casters are doing. It doesn't need to explicitly say that it doesn't trigger during the rest of the casting, because reactions tell you when they do trigger, not when they don't.

Counterspell's trigger is that you see a spell being cast. A spell is being cast until the last secondary spellcaster completes their last action

That's actually not the exact text of Counterspell. The reaction trigger is "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components"

The Circle Spell rules go out of their way to avoid describing a secondary caster as "casting a spell", instead just calling it "contributing" or "lending their magic"

Secondary Casters

Casting a Circle spell requires that one or more other spellcasters, called secondary casters, lend their magic to the spell. A secondary caster must have either the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature to participate in a Circle spell.

After you initiate the spell, each secondary caster takes the Magic action to contribute to the spell. A secondary caster can take this action only while within 30 feet of you and before the start of your next turn.

Quote from TarodNet >>

As a single spellcaster, if you rule Counterspell can be used against your spells with Longer Casting Times, since you're casting and taking the Magic action on each of your turns, I'd say the same spell using Circle Magic could also be counterspelled during the duration of that casting, not just at the start.

 This is my thoughts as well, since until the Circle Spell's casting is complete you must maintain Concentration on the spell and the effects occur immediately after the final secondary caster takes the required action to contribute to the spell, during this entire time you should be considered as casting a spell for all intent and purposes, and so any effect that can be triggerred while doing so should apply.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

. . .Counterspell's trigger is that you see a spell being cast. A spell is being cast until the last secondary spellcaster completes their last action (in the case of a spell that takes longer than 1 turn to cast). . .

. . .If you walk in after the circle spell was initiated but before it finishes, you can Counterspell it just fine, as long as it meets the other requirements for Counterspell. . .

I agree with your basic position. The issue is that Subtle can prevent people from seeing that a spell is being cast (by removing Components). You only get the Reaction when a spell with a V, S, and/or M Component is used. If they are not, you don't get to use Counterspell.

But, of course, that was written pre-Circle Magic. The question is, how obvious is it that Circle Magic is in use? Can people tell that the secondary casters are contributing? I know that in my head canon the secondary casters are obviously taking Magic actions, even if it may not be clear what that action is. That's my head canon, though. The actual rules are woefully silent on that subject (and to be clear, I'm a fan of this new mechanic. I just think there's some issues they need to consider and polish in errata). Perhaps they could burn Sorcery points for Subtle Circle Magic? (I'm not implying that the RAW currently support this, merely speculating on future mechanics)

For that matter, can secondary casters even contribute with a lack of cues coming from the primary caster? It seems like it would be rather hard for the circle to coordinate if the secondary casters can't tell what the primary caster is doing, and similarly, it would be really hard for the primary caster to know that everyone is ready to contribute (i.e. they've passed their Initiative point and have taken the appropriate Magic action) if there are no obvious signs from the secondary casters (though there's a greater possibility that the primary caster might be able to tell since they may receive some sort of feedback as people 'plug in').

From an absolutely RAW perspective, it seems like currently there would be no chance to Counterspell a Subtle spell cast with Circle Magic. It doesn't matter if the Casting Time is 1 action or 1 hour. You can only do it when you see someone cast a spell with a V, S, and/or M component, and that isn't happening. Seeing people function as secondary casters for Circle Magic (assuming that you can see that) is not the RAW Trigger and the caster has suppressed the need for a V, and/or S Component (with the Supplant option even offering the possibility of removing any M Components), so they do not activate the Trigger.

However, there seems to be some pretty strong arguments that the current RAW are a bit inadequate. They were not written to take this kind of situation into account.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

As a single spellcaster, if you rule Counterspell can be used against your spells with Longer Casting Times, since you're casting and taking the Magic action on each of your turns, I'd say the same spell using Circle Magic could also be counterspelled during the duration of that casting, not just at the start.

 This is my thoughts as well, since until the Circle Spell's casting is complete you must maintain Concentration on the spell and the effects occur immediately after the final secondary caster takes the required action to contribute to the spell, during this entire time you should be considered as casting a spell for all intent and purposes, and so any effect that can be triggerred while doing so should apply.

But the Trigger isn't just the casting of the spell. It is 'a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components'. What if those are removed by the use of Subtle Spell (and possibly the Supplant option). That's the real issue.

Quote from esampson >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

. . .Counterspell's trigger is that you see a spell being cast. A spell is being cast until the last secondary spellcaster completes their last action (in the case of a spell that takes longer than 1 turn to cast). . .

. . .If you walk in after the circle spell was initiated but before it finishes, you can Counterspell it just fine, as long as it meets the other requirements for Counterspell. . .

 

I agree with your basic position. The issue is that Subtle can prevent people from seeing that a spell is being cast (by removing Components). You only get the Reaction when a spell with a V, S, and/or M Component is used. If they are not, you don't get to use Counterspell.

Yes, exactly. I was specifically addressing the use of Counterspell independent of Subtle Spell.

Quote from esampson >>

But, of course, that was written pre-Circle Magic. The question is, how obvious is it that Circle Magic is in use? Can people tell that the secondary casters are contributing? I know that in my head canon the secondary casters are obviously taking Magic actions, even if it may not be clear what that action is. That's my head canon, though. The actual rules are woefully silent on that subject (and to be clear, I'm a fan of this new mechanic. I just think there's some issues they need to consider and polish in errata). Perhaps they could burn Sorcery points for Subtle Circle Magic? (I'm not implying that the RAW currently support this, merely speculating on future mechanics)

For that matter, can secondary casters even contribute with a lack of cues coming from the primary caster? It seems like it would be rather hard for the circle to coordinate if the secondary casters can't tell what the primary caster is doing, and similarly, it would be really hard for the primary caster to know that everyone is ready to contribute (i.e. they've passed their Initiative point and have taken the appropriate Magic action) if there are no obvious signs from the secondary casters (though there's a greater possibility that the primary caster might be able to tell since they may receive some sort of feedback as people 'plug in').

From an absolutely RAW perspective, it seems like currently there would be no chance to Counterspell a Subtle spell cast with Circle Magic. It doesn't matter if the Casting Time is 1 action or 1 hour. You can only do it when you see someone cast a spell with a V, S, and/or M component, and that isn't happening. Seeing people function as secondary casters for Circle Magic (assuming that you can see that) is not the RAW Trigger and the caster has suppressed the need for a V, and/or S Component (with the Supplant option even offering the possibility of removing any M Components), so they do not activate the Trigger.

However, there seems to be some pretty strong arguments that the current RAW are a bit inadequate. They were not written to take this kind of situation into account.

Even if you see a bunch of people in robes standing in an extremely suspicious way and decide to counterspell, who is your target? I suppose that's a question for casting Counterspell in general. The primary caster takes the magic action to initiate casting the spell but the secondary "casters" take a magic action to "contribute to the spell". Initiating a circle spell, contributing to a circle spell, and completing the casting are all parts of "Casting a Circle Spell". Does that make them valid targets for the Counterspell or can only the primary caster be targeted? I read that as all of them are creatures casting a [circle] spell.

The Subtle Spell interaction, while weird, is pretty straightforward. Logically, it makes sense that you see some suspicious robed people standing in geometric patterns and feel the urge to Counterspell, but mechanically, initiating the spell, contributing to it, and completing are all parts of casting a spell. So the Counterspell reaction condition, in terms of Circle Spells, would be "when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a Circle Spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components" and Subtle Spell would remove those components.

Quote from AntonSirius>>

That's actually not the exact text of Counterspell. The reaction trigger is "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components"

The Circle Spell rules go out of their way to avoid describing a secondary caster as "casting a spell", instead just calling it "contributing" or "lending their magic"

The entire section on Secondary Casters is under the section of Casting a Circle Spell. For the Primary Caster, they take an Magic Action to "initiate casting a Circle Spell". This is not "casting a spell"; the verb is "initiate", not "cast". No one is taking the Magic Action to "cast a spell", per se. It is unclear whether every creature is a creature casting a spell, only the primary caster, or none of them. The callout about Reactions could be a reminder or it could be a necessity specifically because no one is taking the magic action to cast a spell.

I am currently uncertain about secondary casters but lean towards everyone is a caster.

Quote from esampson >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from TarodNet >>

As a single spellcaster, if you rule Counterspell can be used against your spells with Longer Casting Times, since you're casting and taking the Magic action on each of your turns, I'd say the same spell using Circle Magic could also be counterspelled during the duration of that casting, not just at the start.

 This is my thoughts as well, since until the Circle Spell's casting is complete you must maintain Concentration on the spell and the effects occur immediately after the final secondary caster takes the required action to contribute to the spell, during this entire time you should be considered as casting a spell for all intent and purposes, and so any effect that can be triggerred while doing so should apply.

 

But the Trigger isn't just the casting of the spell. It is 'a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components'. What if those are removed by the use of Subtle Spell (and possibly the Supplant option). That's the real issue.

 If the spell components are removed, then there's nothing to satisfy Counterspell  trigger.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from AntonSirius>>

That's actually not the exact text of Counterspell. The reaction trigger is "which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components"

The Circle Spell rules go out of their way to avoid describing a secondary caster as "casting a spell", instead just calling it "contributing" or "lending their magic"

 

The entire section on Secondary Casters is under the section of Casting a Circle Spell. For the Primary Caster, they take an Magic Action to "initiate casting a Circle Spell". This is not "casting a spell"; the verb is "initiate", not "cast".

I mean, it literally says 'casting a Circle Spell' there as part of the sentence. It is absolutely 'casting a spell'

If you want to get into the weeds on the grammar, 'initiate casting' is the whole verb phrase, with 'casting' being the present participle, while 'initiate' is what's known as the auxiliary or helping verb to indicate tense