The gelatinous cube in that example has already engulfed one of the party before surprise, which is an attack.
A Gelatinous Cube Engulf wasn't an attack, it was an action with a saving throw, which the monster had a special trait called Transparent saying ''A creature that tries to enter the cube's space while unaware of the cube is surprised by the cube.'' The Engulf had this particular note ''On a successful save, the creature can choose to be pushed 5 feet back or to the side of the cube. A creature that chooses not to be pushed suffers the consequences of a failed saving throw.''
SAC implied that surprised creature were considered as not choosing to be pushed. I would consider the example from 5E14 has a specific rules case and not an exception that confirm the general rules.
The gelatinous cube in that example has already engulfed one of the party before surprise, which is an attack.
A Gelatinous Cube Engulf wasn't an attack, it was an action with a saving throw, which the monster had a special trait called Transparent saying ''A creature that tries to enter the cube's space while unaware of the cube is surprised by the cube.'' The Engulf had this particular note ''On a successful save, the creature can choose to be pushed 5 feet back or to the side of the cube. A creature that chooses not to be pushed suffers the consequences of a failed saving throw.''
SAC implied that surprised creature were considered as not choosing to be pushed. I would consider the example from 5E14 has a specific rules case and not an exception that confirm the general rules.
Are we really splitting hairs on what is an attack for this? So if i cast fireball, since that's not an attack, that can go off before combat, but god forbid the rogue try to shoot his crossbow while hidden?
I disagree. It's the only example they seem to have ever given in any discussion of surprise where one side was completely unaware of the other. And they have the engulf happen before initiative is rolled, and specifically make note of the fact that the cube was unnoticed.
(Your interpretation of the passage requires surprise happen first, and then the character is engulfed. But that's not what the example says. The character is engulfed, then surprise happens).
There was no surprise round. Surprised characters simply couldn't take actions, and stopped being surprised after their first turn.
And the example is pretty explicit. The cube is unnoticed until one of the party members is already engulfed. Then it gains surprise in the ensuing combat.
Okay, it did the engulf on its first turn when no-one else took an action. The example is in no way explicit.
The issue is this edge case of an undetected ambusher initiating combat. What I am disputing is the idea that the ambushee rolling higher initiative than the undetected attacker suddenly "somehow" becomes aware of hostilities and is able to act in response to an attack which - by the very definition of initiative - has not happened yet.
The best way to interpret what is happening here according to the rules is like this:
The ambusher successfully hid before combat. He is undetected by the enemy. When you have this game state before combat begins and then we transition into combat beginning, that causes the enemy to be surprised at that moment when the combat begins. That snapshot moment in time is during the rolling of the initiative. Once any turns within the combat have started, no one is surprised any longer. The fact that they were surprised at the very beginning of combat is now already baked in at that point.
Now, let's assume that the event that initiated the combat was that the ambusher makes a ranged attack against the enemy. This activity is not fully protected by his stealth roll. (It cannot be, otherwise it would not be possible for the enemy to act first). So, everything that the ambusher was doing prior to initiating this attack was undetectable due to the successful stealth roll. But, as soon as he flinches a single muscle to go for his weapon with the intention of making his ranged attack, something about this activity IS detected by the enemy. Not enough for the enemy to actually locate the ambusher, but enough to know that a threat exists and is imminent (even though it is being detected so last-minute that it takes a moment to react to it -- i.e., it is surprising). The way that he shifted his weight, the way that he drew back his bowstring. Something has alerted the enemy in this exact moment. The ambusher is still hidden for the purposes of targeting -- the enemy must "guess the square" in order to try to attack him. But the enemy is no longer totally unaware or even surprised at this point. That brief window of opportunity has been missed. The attack has been initiated but it does not get resolved until the ambusher's turn in the turn order. If the enemy is fast enough, he can act before this ambush resolves. However, as per the rule for unseen attackers, the ambusher's location is not revealed until after his attack hits or misses.
We don't have to like it, but this is how the rules are written in 2024.
So, in summary, there are four possibilities for the timing of events in this scenario which yield two unique results mechanically:
-- The enemy notices the threat well before combat but does not act quickly. (Passive Perception detects the enemy before anyone does anything. Enemy rolls lower on standard initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat well before combat and acts quickly. (Passive Perception detects the enemy before anyone does anything. Enemy rolls higher on standard initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat right at the moment that the attack is initiated and acts very quickly. (The enemy is surprised by combat starting but still manages to act first. Enemy rolls higher on surprise initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat right at the moment that the attack is initiated but is surprised for too long so is unable to act quickly enough OR The enemy does not notice the threat at all until the initiating attack hits or misses. (The enemy is surprised by combat starting and acts last. Enemy rolls lower on surprise initiative.)
Now, they seem to have removed all examples of surprise from the rules in 2024 - i don't think we have a single apropos discussion from a designer post-2024 rules on Surprise. But in both cases, the rules never say 'combat starts before any attacks are made', it instead says the DM decides when you roll initiative (and thus when combat starts).
Upon briefly skimming through the thread, it appears that the rules text which renders all of these statements incorrect has been quoted several times, including:
Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order . . .
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
and
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.
There was no surprise round. Surprised characters simply couldn't take actions, and stopped being surprised after their first turn.
And the example is pretty explicit. The cube is unnoticed until one of the party members is already engulfed. Then it gains surprise in the ensuing combat.
Okay, it did the engulf on its first turn when no-one else took an action. The example is in no way explicit.
"A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
The situation is the gelatinous cube has already engulfed an adventurer. In that situation, it gains surprise over the party. The engulf happened before surprise was determined and initiative was rolled. That's incredibly explicit.
There's essentially 2 ways to run surprise using 2024 rules:
1) As soon as a creature starts the preparations to take a hostile action it is sensed by the target even if they are successfully Hidden - this could be a supernatural "spidey sense", or noticing some environmental change that indicates a threat is present. This is the reason why they might get lucky and still act first if they roll high enough initiative despite Disadvantage on the roll.
2) Initiative can begin without both sides being aware of each other, in which case the ambushers could hold their initial actions and thus take them all simultaneously prior to the other side becoming aware of the threat.
The situation is the gelatinous cube has already engulfed an adventurer. In that situation, it gains surprise over the party. The engulf happened before surprise was determined and initiative was rolled. That's incredibly explicit.
The gelatinous cube surprised the party and used engulf when all the PCs were surprised, the statement there is just narrating the process of surprise.
I don't actually think there is much "talking past each other". The main point of contention seems to be whether a hostile action can be executedbefore initiative is rolled. No one seems to be confused about who would get advantage or disadvantage when that actually happens, though.
I'm still of the camp that thinks the text and examples are quite clear: no. And I still like up2ng's "just narrate the die rolls like you always do" take on it. However, Squirreloid is not wrong when they point out that there is a bit of a disconnect, logically.
BG3 has certainly not helped, but again "taking turns" in combat should be seen as a complete abstraction of the 6-second round. The way it should be played (based on how the abstraction works) is that every player decides what they will do in that round, write it on a piece of paper, then all reveal at the same time and execute the actions in initiative order (this is how some board games, like Gloom/Frosthaven work). For better or for worse, that is not how the rules actually flow, and that leads players to think of turns as their own little sub-6-second chunks within the round (this is what I meant by the DM "metagaming" before by deciding not to do the hostile action after the fact).
Lastly, I want to reiterate that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but is your ability to react quickly to a situation. Fireballing a room is certainly an action you can take, but wow, that's a hell of a waste of a spell if the ambush was actually coming from behind... To me, the most reasonable actions one could take at the top of the order before the ambushers actually attack is either the Ready or the Dodge. And both of those play into the fantasy that if you have superhuman reflexes (roll high on initiative even with disadvantage) then you were not caught unawares.
People don't tend to run combat using the "secretly write your actions on a piece of paper and they get executed in initiative order" for a couple of reasons. The first is that it takes much longer something down, pass it to the GM, and have them read it than it does to go down the line in initiative order and talk. The second is:
Barbarian's paper: I charge forward at the lead enemy of that cluster and attack. [Initiative 16]
Fighter's paper: I charge forward at the lead enemy of the cluster and attack. [Initiative 14]
Wizard's paper: I cast fireball onto the center of the cluster of enemies. [Initiative 13]
Oops, the Wizard toasted two of his allies by accident. Or, less dramatically:
Fighter's paper: I charge forward my full movement of 30 feet and attack enemy A. [Initiative 17]
Enemy A: I move 20 feet to my left and shoot an arrow at the PC Wizard [Initiative 18]
Enemy A won initiative so the fighter charges forward 30 feet, but the target already moved, so the fighter just sits there and does nothing.
That would make combat messy and it would take at least three times longer, as after a few fights like that, each player would learn they have to write a paragraph of if-else conditional statements. It would not be fun for anyone.
Lastly, I want to reiterate that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but is your ability to react quickly to a situation. Fireballing a room is certainly an action you can take, but wow, that's a hell of a waste of a spell if the ambush was actually coming from behind... To me, the most reasonable actions one could take at the top of the order before the ambushers actually attack is either the Ready or the Dodge. And both of those play into the fantasy that if you have superhuman reflexes (roll high on initiative even with disadvantage) then you were not caught unawares.
You start off by saying that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but finish by saying that if you have high initiative, you were not caught unawares.
Those two positions are contradictory. If the enemy caught you by surprise, then by literal definition, you WERE caught unawares.
As further evidence of the fact that an enemy pretty much always becomes aware of an incoming attack at the last moment before it's resolved even though a hidden enemy's location isn't actually revealed until after the attack hits or misses, consider the fact that the attack does not result in an old-school-style auto-kill and also does not even result in an auto-crit as some do when you are Unconscious or Paralyzed. Mechanically, it's "merely" an attack made with Advantage. The enemy is able to defend itself, just not as well as it normally can. If it can perceive an incoming attack well enough to defend itself, maybe on rare occasion it's also possible to react quickly enough to execute an action before this incoming attack fully resolves.
Now, they seem to have removed all examples of surprise from the rules in 2024 - i don't think we have a single apropos discussion from a designer post-2024 rules on Surprise. But in both cases, the rules never say 'combat starts before any attacks are made', it instead says the DM decides when you roll initiative (and thus when combat starts).
Upon briefly skimming through the thread, it appears that the rules text which renders all of these statements incorrect has been quoted several times, including:
Initiative
Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant rolls Initiative; they make a Dexterity check that determines their place in the Initiative order . . .
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
and
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.
The dispute is over when 'combat starts'. I argue combat starts after the attack when the party has not perceived the attacker or cannot perceive the 'attack' happening. The rules only say the DM decides when combat starts, not that it starts at the moment of hostile intention.
Your first quote here is simply not resolving this. I would say the combat starts after the ambusher's attack.
Your second quote just doesn't apply at all, because the sorceror in that example is visibly casting, so everyone is aware he's doing something. (Although it has a second problem - visible casting cannot be sufficient to start combat, because there are spells which assume they can be cast without combat starting, like Friends. At which point the example must be wrong).
Alternately, considering the wording, I'd say the Chromatic Orb spell should actually already have been cast when they roll initiative based on their own words. After all, you only target a spell when you finish casting it, so if he targeted the Doppleganger with a Chromatic Orb spell, that spell has necessarily already resolved. At which point, the example writer is clearly confused and can't be trusted to have gotten any rules right. If the spell is mid-cast, the sorceror hasn't targeted anyone, he's only started casting a spell.
The issue is this edge case of an undetected ambusher initiating combat. What I am disputing is the idea that the ambushee rolling higher initiative than the undetected attacker suddenly "somehow" becomes aware of hostilities and is able to act in response to an attack which - by the very definition of initiative - has not happened yet.
The best way to interpret what is happening here according to the rules is like this:
The ambusher successfully hid before combat. He is undetected by the enemy. When you have this game state before combat begins and then we transition into combat beginning, that causes the enemy to be surprised at that moment when the combat begins. That snapshot moment in time is during the rolling of the initiative. Once any turns within the combat have started, no one is surprised any longer. The fact that they were surprised at the very beginning of combat is now already baked in at that point.
Now, let's assume that the event that initiated the combat was that the ambusher makes a ranged attack against the enemy. This activity is not fully protected by his stealth roll. (It cannot be, otherwise it would not be possible for the enemy to act first). So, everything that the ambusher was doing prior to initiating this attack was undetectable due to the successful stealth roll. But, as soon as he flinches a single muscle to go for his weapon with the intention of making his ranged attack, something about this activity IS detected by the enemy. Not enough for the enemy to actually locate the ambusher, but enough to know that a threat exists and is imminent (even though it is being detected so last-minute that it takes a moment to react to it -- i.e., it is surprising). The way that he shifted his weight, the way that he drew back his bowstring. Something has alerted the enemy in this exact moment. The ambusher is still hidden for the purposes of targeting -- the enemy must "guess the square" in order to try to attack him. But the enemy is no longer totally unaware or even surprised at this point. That brief window of opportunity has been missed. The attack has been initiated but it does not get resolved until the ambusher's turn in the turn order. If the enemy is fast enough, he can act before this ambush resolves. However, as per the rule for unseen attackers, the ambusher's location is not revealed until after his attack hits or misses.
We don't have to like it, but this is how the rules are written in 2024.
I disagree how the rules are written. Combat starting is up to the DM. Other parts of the rules (like how the Friends spell works) suggests you can do things like cast a spell without combat starting. And 'combat starting' implies both sides have reason to go to arms.
Nor is initiative a perception roll. if you rolled well enough on your stealth check, they also don't hear you draw your weapon.
Consider the rogue with a crossbow. It's already loaded. It's pointed right at the target. Maybe he's taking his time to line up the shot, but he's had them in his sights for 10 minutes. He's completely unnoticed. At which point do you think initiative gives the party awareness that he's there? When he puts his finger on the trigger? When he starts to squeeze the trigger? Why is the moment of attack so much different from everything else the stealth/perception contest considers that that's the thing which always gives the game away? He lined up the shot, his finger is on the trigger, nobody knows he's there, but then the moment he starts to pull the trigger, everyone starts to react to a hostile threat. That's personal time machines for everyone.
I don't think combat has started until that bolt hits someone (or misses). That's the first indication anyone on that side has that there's combat = combat starts. If not for that bolt being fired, there is no combat at all. It is logically required that it happens first. No bootstrap paradoxes.
Initiative is not perception. It does not tell you foes are present. Combat only starts when both sides are aware hostilities are commencing. That's when you roll initiative.
The rules never tell you when combat starts. They say the DM decides. My argument is that this is the only reasonable way to decide in many cases, and I have never seen it played at a table otherwise.
As further evidence of the fact that an enemy pretty much always becomes aware of an incoming attack at the last moment before it's resolved even though a hidden enemy's location isn't actually revealed until after the attack hits or misses, consider the fact that the attack does not result in an old-school-style auto-kill and also does not even result in an auto-crit as some do when you are Unconscious or Paralyzed. Mechanically, it's "merely" an attack made with Advantage. The enemy is able to defend itself, just not as well as it normally can. If it can perceive an incoming attack well enough to defend itself, maybe on rare occasion it's also possible to react quickly enough to execute an action before this incoming attack fully resolves.
The lack of an auto-crit or instant death is not evidence that the enemy becomes aware before the attack. It reflects the element of chance present in the attacker's action. Maybe the attacker is nervous and even with advantage, pulls the shot a little and misses. Maybe it hits the enemy a little off center of the intended target. Or maybe the attacker gets lucky and nails their target right in a vital spot for a critical hit.
I don't actually think there is much "talking past each other". The main point of contention seems to be whether a hostile action can be executedbefore initiative is rolled. No one seems to be confused about who would get advantage or disadvantage when that actually happens, though.
I'm still of the camp that thinks the text and examples are quite clear: no. And I still like up2ng's "just narrate the die rolls like you always do" take on it. However, Squirreloid is not wrong when they point out that there is a bit of a disconnect, logically.
BG3 has certainly not helped, but again "taking turns" in combat should be seen as a complete abstraction of the 6-second round. The way it should be played (based on how the abstraction works) is that every player decides what they will do in that round, write it on a piece of paper, then all reveal at the same time and execute the actions in initiative order (this is how some board games, like Gloom/Frosthaven work). For better or for worse, that is not how the rules actually flow, and that leads players to think of turns as their own little sub-6-second chunks within the round (this is what I meant by the DM "metagaming" before by deciding not to do the hostile action after the fact).
Lastly, I want to reiterate that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but is your ability to react quickly to a situation. Fireballing a room is certainly an action you can take, but wow, that's a hell of a waste of a spell if the ambush was actually coming from behind... To me, the most reasonable actions one could take at the top of the order before the ambushers actually attack is either the Ready or the Dodge. And both of those play into the fantasy that if you have superhuman reflexes (roll high on initiative even with disadvantage) then you were not caught unawares.
People don't tend to run combat using the "secretly write your actions on a piece of paper and they get executed in initiative order" for a couple of reasons. The first is that it takes much longer something down, pass it to the GM, and have them read it than it does to go down the line in initiative order and talk. The second is:
Barbarian's paper: I charge forward at the lead enemy of that cluster and attack. [Initiative 16]
Fighter's paper: I charge forward at the lead enemy of the cluster and attack. [Initiative 14]
Wizard's paper: I cast fireball onto the center of the cluster of enemies. [Initiative 13]
Oops, the Wizard toasted two of his allies by accident. Or, less dramatically:
Fighter's paper: I charge forward my full movement of 30 feet and attack enemy A. [Initiative 17]
Enemy A: I move 20 feet to my left and shoot an arrow at the PC Wizard [Initiative 18]
Enemy A won initiative so the fighter charges forward 30 feet, but the target already moved, so the fighter just sits there and does nothing.
That would make combat messy and it would take at least three times longer, as after a few fights like that, each player would learn they have to write a paragraph of if-else conditional statements. It would not be fun for anyone.
Lastly, I want to reiterate that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but is your ability to react quickly to a situation. Fireballing a room is certainly an action you can take, but wow, that's a hell of a waste of a spell if the ambush was actually coming from behind... To me, the most reasonable actions one could take at the top of the order before the ambushers actually attack is either the Ready or the Dodge. And both of those play into the fantasy that if you have superhuman reflexes (roll high on initiative even with disadvantage) then you were not caught unawares.
You start off by saying that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but finish by saying that if you have high initiative, you were not caught unawares.
Those two positions are contradictory. If the enemy caught you by surprise, then by literal definition, you WERE caught unawares.
I understand why it's not actually run that way (the "better"), but the "worse" is that people's interpretation of what "turns" and "a round" actually are is skewed because of it.
And you'll have to forgive me. I admit that was poor word choice. What I meant was that someone with high initiative has the reflexes to act first even though they were caught unawares. Again, all of the actions of all of the participants are supposed to be happening within the same six seconds.
Surprise: If the bandits are caught unawares by the start of combat, they are surprised. This means they have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll: they roll the d20 twice and must use the lower roll.
Trap: If the trap is triggered, or if the characters are loud in some other way, the goblins in the room beyond are aware of the intrusion and can’t be surprised. If the characters were quiet and avoided the trap, the goblins are surprised when the characters open the door.
The Prize: When the characters enter the room, adjust this text depending on whether the goblins are surprised. If they’re surprised, they are standing around the bowl and not looking at the entry, and you can read the box text below as it is. If they’re not surprised, they are in a defensive formation with weapons drawn, and the centipede is at the front of the formation. You can adjust the last sentences of the first and second paragraphs so the goblins are ready to fight.
Any combatant surprised by combat starting is aware of the surprise causing it to have Disadvantage to Initiative; Disadvantage reflects negative circumstances.
When a creature's action initiate combat, combat starts and every participants roll Initiative 1d20 with the following exception;
Invisible or acting character has Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Creature surprised by combat starting have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll
D20 Tests
Roll 1d20. You always want to roll high. If the roll has Advantage or Disadvantage (described later in this chapter), you roll two d20s, but you use the number from only one of them—the higher one if you have Advantage or the lower one if you have Disadvantage.
Advantage/Disadvantage
Sometimes a D20 Test is modified by Advantage or Disadvantage. Advantage reflects the positive circumstances surrounding a d20 roll, while Disadvantage reflects negative circumstances.
You usually acquire Advantage or Disadvantage through the use of special abilities and actions. The DM can also decide that circumstances grant Advantage or impose Disadvantage.
So the only dispute is wether an action initiate combat can be resolved before Initiative or not. It has no rules support for it, but has one against it in the DMG and absolutely no rule support changing that when creatures are hidden ambusher or unaware combat is starting. So any DM ruling in that direction is simply unsupported by the rules.
The situation is the gelatinous cube has already engulfed an adventurer. In that situation, it gains surprise over the party. The engulf happened before surprise was determined and initiative was rolled. That's incredibly explicit.
The gelatinous cube surprised the party and used engulf when all the PCs were surprised, the statement there is just narrating the process of surprise.
You are bending over backwards to ignore the text of the passage.
The "situation" is that the cube has already engulfed a party member. In this situation, the cube gets surprise. The surprise is after it engulfs. That's what the text actually says.
Additionally, we know from the SRD that 5E24 revised Surprise to level the action economy in these circumstances. With most combat lasting only a few rounds, there was clear intent to limit its impact on combat. The new rule in this edition instead grant creature Invisible or who's action initiate combat Advantage on their Initiative roll. So all passes by Initiative.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
Surprise: If the bandits are caught unawares by the start of combat, they are surprised. This means they have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll: they roll the d20 twice and must use the lower roll.
Trap: If the trap is triggered, or if the characters are loud in some other way, the goblins in the room beyond are aware of the intrusion and can’t be surprised. If the characters were quiet and avoided the trap, the goblins are surprised when the characters open the door.
The Prize: When the characters enter the room, adjust this text depending on whether the goblins are surprised. If they’re surprised, they are standing around the bowl and not looking at the entry, and you can read the box text below as it is. If they’re not surprised, they are in a defensive formation with weapons drawn, and the centipede is at the front of the formation. You can adjust the last sentences of the first and second paragraphs so the goblins are ready to fight.
I'm not sure how this passage helps one way or the other. The passage tells you what starts combat - the door opening - and whether the goblins are surprised at the point that event happens. Not germane to the contexts being discussed.
Any combatant surprised by combat starting is aware of the surprise causing it to have Disadvantage to Initiative; Disadvantage reflects negative circumstances.
When a creature's action initiate combat, combat starts and every participants roll Initiative 1d20 with the following exception;
Invisible or acting character has Advantage on their Initiative roll.
Creature surprised by combat starting have Disadvantage on their Initiative roll
D20 Tests
Roll 1d20. You always want to roll high. If the roll has Advantage or Disadvantage (described later in this chapter), you roll two d20s, but you use the number from only one of them—the higher one if you have Advantage or the lower one if you have Disadvantage.
Advantage/Disadvantage
Sometimes a D20 Test is modified by Advantage or Disadvantage. Advantage reflects the positive circumstances surrounding a d20 roll, while Disadvantage reflects negative circumstances.
You usually acquire Advantage or Disadvantage through the use of special abilities and actions. The DM can also decide that circumstances grant Advantage or impose Disadvantage.
So the only dispute is wether an action initiate combat can be resolved before Initiative or not. It has no rules support for it, but has one against it in the DMG and absolutely no rule support changing that when creatures are hidden ambusher or unaware combat is starting. So any DM ruling in that direction is simply unsupported by the rules.
No, the dispute is over what 'combat starting' means. The rules just say the DM decides. That's not support for either position.
"So the only dispute is wether an action initiate combat can be resolved before Initiative or not." is a mischaracterization, because it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat. (An invisible assassin attacking does not initiate combat - no one sees the attack - rather, the result of the attack initiates combat, which is necessarily after the action. Similarly, spellcasting does not necessarily initiate combat, even if the result of the spell does.)
There's an explicit 2014 example of Engulf happening before combat starts, which is explicit rules support for combat starting after a hostile act, and the only example anyone has found of the rules or designers discussing a hostile action which the other side could not have known about until it happened, given their unawareness. (There are no germane examples in the 2024 rules or SAC that I can find). That's explicit rules support.
If I insult your mother, and you slap me, we don't roll initiative before i insult your mother, and potentially you slap me before I've insulted her. You slap me after i insult your mother. It's the insult being said which 'started combat', not my intention to say it.
Look up bootstrap paradox. No good faith reading of the rules could possibly require bootstrap paradoxes to be commonplace.
You are bending over backwards to ignore the text of the passage.
The "situation" is that the cube has already engulfed a party member. In this situation, the cube gets surprise. The surprise is after it engulfs. That's what the text actually says.
No, there is a narrative of "the cube engulfs a PC" and the mechanic is "the PCs are surprised and the cube engulfs a PC on its first action".
Additionally, we know from the SRD that 5E24 revised Surprise to level the action economy in these circumstances. With most combat lasting only a few rounds, there was clear intent to limit its impact on combat. The new rule in this edition instead grant creature Invisible or who's action initiate combat Advantage on their Initiative roll. So all passes by Initiative.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
That doesn't actually change the set-up of the gelatinous cube example.
-It already absorbed a party member, and that is the moment the party became aware of it.
-It gets surprise in that situation.
-2014: it could potentially act, the party doesn't act because of surprise, it acts again.
-2024: Instead of the 2014 version, the party simply gets disadvantage on initiative, making it more likely the cube wins initiative (post engulf), but impossible to double act (post engulf). (The cube probably also gets advantage because it was effectively invisible, but that's not because of surprise).
In both cases, the cube has already engulfed a party member and gained surprise. Its the effect of surprise after that which changed.
You are bending over backwards to ignore the text of the passage.
The "situation" is that the cube has already engulfed a party member. In this situation, the cube gets surprise. The surprise is after it engulfs. That's what the text actually says.
No, there is a narrative of "the cube engulfs a PC" and the mechanic is "the PCs are surprised and the cube engulfs a PC on its first action".
That is not what the text says. It says the situation in which the cube was unnoticed until it engulfed a PC gives it surprise. You're assuming the consequent and reading what you think the rules are into the example, despite the example not saying that.
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A Gelatinous Cube Engulf wasn't an attack, it was an action with a saving throw, which the monster had a special trait called Transparent saying ''A creature that tries to enter the cube's space while unaware of the cube is surprised by the cube.'' The Engulf had this particular note ''On a successful save, the creature can choose to be pushed 5 feet back or to the side of the cube. A creature that chooses not to be pushed suffers the consequences of a failed saving throw.''
SAC implied that surprised creature were considered as not choosing to be pushed. I would consider the example from 5E14 has a specific rules case and not an exception that confirm the general rules.
Are we really splitting hairs on what is an attack for this? So if i cast fireball, since that's not an attack, that can go off before combat, but god forbid the rogue try to shoot his crossbow while hidden?
I disagree. It's the only example they seem to have ever given in any discussion of surprise where one side was completely unaware of the other. And they have the engulf happen before initiative is rolled, and specifically make note of the fact that the cube was unnoticed.
(Your interpretation of the passage requires surprise happen first, and then the character is engulfed. But that's not what the example says. The character is engulfed, then surprise happens).
Okay, it did the engulf on its first turn when no-one else took an action. The example is in no way explicit.
The best way to interpret what is happening here according to the rules is like this:
The ambusher successfully hid before combat. He is undetected by the enemy. When you have this game state before combat begins and then we transition into combat beginning, that causes the enemy to be surprised at that moment when the combat begins. That snapshot moment in time is during the rolling of the initiative. Once any turns within the combat have started, no one is surprised any longer. The fact that they were surprised at the very beginning of combat is now already baked in at that point.
Now, let's assume that the event that initiated the combat was that the ambusher makes a ranged attack against the enemy. This activity is not fully protected by his stealth roll. (It cannot be, otherwise it would not be possible for the enemy to act first). So, everything that the ambusher was doing prior to initiating this attack was undetectable due to the successful stealth roll. But, as soon as he flinches a single muscle to go for his weapon with the intention of making his ranged attack, something about this activity IS detected by the enemy. Not enough for the enemy to actually locate the ambusher, but enough to know that a threat exists and is imminent (even though it is being detected so last-minute that it takes a moment to react to it -- i.e., it is surprising). The way that he shifted his weight, the way that he drew back his bowstring. Something has alerted the enemy in this exact moment. The ambusher is still hidden for the purposes of targeting -- the enemy must "guess the square" in order to try to attack him. But the enemy is no longer totally unaware or even surprised at this point. That brief window of opportunity has been missed. The attack has been initiated but it does not get resolved until the ambusher's turn in the turn order. If the enemy is fast enough, he can act before this ambush resolves. However, as per the rule for unseen attackers, the ambusher's location is not revealed until after his attack hits or misses.
We don't have to like it, but this is how the rules are written in 2024.
So, in summary, there are four possibilities for the timing of events in this scenario which yield two unique results mechanically:
-- The enemy notices the threat well before combat but does not act quickly. (Passive Perception detects the enemy before anyone does anything. Enemy rolls lower on standard initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat well before combat and acts quickly. (Passive Perception detects the enemy before anyone does anything. Enemy rolls higher on standard initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat right at the moment that the attack is initiated and acts very quickly. (The enemy is surprised by combat starting but still manages to act first. Enemy rolls higher on surprise initiative.)
-- The enemy notices the threat right at the moment that the attack is initiated but is surprised for too long so is unable to act quickly enough OR The enemy does not notice the threat at all until the initiating attack hits or misses. (The enemy is surprised by combat starting and acts last. Enemy rolls lower on surprise initiative.)
Upon briefly skimming through the thread, it appears that the rules text which renders all of these statements incorrect has been quoted several times, including:
and
"A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other."
The situation is the gelatinous cube has already engulfed an adventurer. In that situation, it gains surprise over the party. The engulf happened before surprise was determined and initiative was rolled. That's incredibly explicit.
There's essentially 2 ways to run surprise using 2024 rules:
1) As soon as a creature starts the preparations to take a hostile action it is sensed by the target even if they are successfully Hidden - this could be a supernatural "spidey sense", or noticing some environmental change that indicates a threat is present. This is the reason why they might get lucky and still act first if they roll high enough initiative despite Disadvantage on the roll.
2) Initiative can begin without both sides being aware of each other, in which case the ambushers could hold their initial actions and thus take them all simultaneously prior to the other side becoming aware of the threat.
The gelatinous cube surprised the party and used engulf when all the PCs were surprised, the statement there is just narrating the process of surprise.
People don't tend to run combat using the "secretly write your actions on a piece of paper and they get executed in initiative order" for a couple of reasons. The first is that it takes much longer something down, pass it to the GM, and have them read it than it does to go down the line in initiative order and talk. The second is:
Oops, the Wizard toasted two of his allies by accident. Or, less dramatically:
Enemy A won initiative so the fighter charges forward 30 feet, but the target already moved, so the fighter just sits there and does nothing.
That would make combat messy and it would take at least three times longer, as after a few fights like that, each player would learn they have to write a paragraph of if-else conditional statements. It would not be fun for anyone.
You start off by saying that high initiative is not a substitute for insight or perception, but finish by saying that if you have high initiative, you were not caught unawares.
Those two positions are contradictory. If the enemy caught you by surprise, then by literal definition, you WERE caught unawares.
As further evidence of the fact that an enemy pretty much always becomes aware of an incoming attack at the last moment before it's resolved even though a hidden enemy's location isn't actually revealed until after the attack hits or misses, consider the fact that the attack does not result in an old-school-style auto-kill and also does not even result in an auto-crit as some do when you are Unconscious or Paralyzed. Mechanically, it's "merely" an attack made with Advantage. The enemy is able to defend itself, just not as well as it normally can. If it can perceive an incoming attack well enough to defend itself, maybe on rare occasion it's also possible to react quickly enough to execute an action before this incoming attack fully resolves.
The dispute is over when 'combat starts'. I argue combat starts after the attack when the party has not perceived the attacker or cannot perceive the 'attack' happening. The rules only say the DM decides when combat starts, not that it starts at the moment of hostile intention.
Your first quote here is simply not resolving this. I would say the combat starts after the ambusher's attack.
Your second quote just doesn't apply at all, because the sorceror in that example is visibly casting, so everyone is aware he's doing something. (Although it has a second problem - visible casting cannot be sufficient to start combat, because there are spells which assume they can be cast without combat starting, like Friends. At which point the example must be wrong).
Alternately, considering the wording, I'd say the Chromatic Orb spell should actually already have been cast when they roll initiative based on their own words. After all, you only target a spell when you finish casting it, so if he targeted the Doppleganger with a Chromatic Orb spell, that spell has necessarily already resolved. At which point, the example writer is clearly confused and can't be trusted to have gotten any rules right. If the spell is mid-cast, the sorceror hasn't targeted anyone, he's only started casting a spell.
I disagree how the rules are written. Combat starting is up to the DM. Other parts of the rules (like how the Friends spell works) suggests you can do things like cast a spell without combat starting. And 'combat starting' implies both sides have reason to go to arms.
Nor is initiative a perception roll. if you rolled well enough on your stealth check, they also don't hear you draw your weapon.
Consider the rogue with a crossbow. It's already loaded. It's pointed right at the target. Maybe he's taking his time to line up the shot, but he's had them in his sights for 10 minutes. He's completely unnoticed. At which point do you think initiative gives the party awareness that he's there? When he puts his finger on the trigger? When he starts to squeeze the trigger? Why is the moment of attack so much different from everything else the stealth/perception contest considers that that's the thing which always gives the game away? He lined up the shot, his finger is on the trigger, nobody knows he's there, but then the moment he starts to pull the trigger, everyone starts to react to a hostile threat. That's personal time machines for everyone.
I don't think combat has started until that bolt hits someone (or misses). That's the first indication anyone on that side has that there's combat = combat starts. If not for that bolt being fired, there is no combat at all. It is logically required that it happens first. No bootstrap paradoxes.
Initiative is not perception. It does not tell you foes are present. Combat only starts when both sides are aware hostilities are commencing. That's when you roll initiative.
The rules never tell you when combat starts. They say the DM decides. My argument is that this is the only reasonable way to decide in many cases, and I have never seen it played at a table otherwise.
The lack of an auto-crit or instant death is not evidence that the enemy becomes aware before the attack. It reflects the element of chance present in the attacker's action. Maybe the attacker is nervous and even with advantage, pulls the shot a little and misses. Maybe it hits the enemy a little off center of the intended target. Or maybe the attacker gets lucky and nails their target right in a vital spot for a critical hit.
I understand why it's not actually run that way (the "better"), but the "worse" is that people's interpretation of what "turns" and "a round" actually are is skewed because of it.
And you'll have to forgive me. I admit that was poor word choice. What I meant was that someone with high initiative has the reflexes to act first even though they were caught unawares. Again, all of the actions of all of the participants are supposed to be happening within the same six seconds.
The new Borderlands Quest: Goblin Trouble advventure has the following passage on surprise:
Any combatant surprised by combat starting is aware of the surprise causing it to have Disadvantage to Initiative; Disadvantage reflects negative circumstances.
When a creature's action initiate combat, combat starts and every participants roll Initiative 1d20 with the following exception;
So the only dispute is wether an action initiate combat can be resolved before Initiative or not. It has no rules support for it, but has one against it in the DMG and absolutely no rule support changing that when creatures are hidden ambusher or unaware combat is starting. So any DM ruling in that direction is simply unsupported by the rules.
You are bending over backwards to ignore the text of the passage.
The "situation" is that the cube has already engulfed a party member. In this situation, the cube gets surprise. The surprise is after it engulfs. That's what the text actually says.
Additionally, we know from the SRD that 5E24 revised Surprise to level the action economy in these circumstances. With most combat lasting only a few rounds, there was clear intent to limit its impact on combat. The new rule in this edition instead grant creature Invisible or who's action initiate combat Advantage on their Initiative roll. So all passes by Initiative.
I'm not sure how this passage helps one way or the other. The passage tells you what starts combat - the door opening - and whether the goblins are surprised at the point that event happens. Not germane to the contexts being discussed.
No, the dispute is over what 'combat starting' means. The rules just say the DM decides. That's not support for either position.
"So the only dispute is wether an action initiate combat can be resolved before Initiative or not." is a mischaracterization, because it's often not the action that initiates combat, but the result of the action that initiates combat. (An invisible assassin attacking does not initiate combat - no one sees the attack - rather, the result of the attack initiates combat, which is necessarily after the action. Similarly, spellcasting does not necessarily initiate combat, even if the result of the spell does.)
There's an explicit 2014 example of Engulf happening before combat starts, which is explicit rules support for combat starting after a hostile act, and the only example anyone has found of the rules or designers discussing a hostile action which the other side could not have known about until it happened, given their unawareness. (There are no germane examples in the 2024 rules or SAC that I can find). That's explicit rules support.
If I insult your mother, and you slap me, we don't roll initiative before i insult your mother, and potentially you slap me before I've insulted her. You slap me after i insult your mother. It's the insult being said which 'started combat', not my intention to say it.
Look up bootstrap paradox. No good faith reading of the rules could possibly require bootstrap paradoxes to be commonplace.
No, there is a narrative of "the cube engulfs a PC" and the mechanic is "the PCs are surprised and the cube engulfs a PC on its first action".
That doesn't actually change the set-up of the gelatinous cube example.
-It already absorbed a party member, and that is the moment the party became aware of it.
-It gets surprise in that situation.
-2014: it could potentially act, the party doesn't act because of surprise, it acts again.
-2024: Instead of the 2014 version, the party simply gets disadvantage on initiative, making it more likely the cube wins initiative (post engulf), but impossible to double act (post engulf). (The cube probably also gets advantage because it was effectively invisible, but that's not because of surprise).
In both cases, the cube has already engulfed a party member and gained surprise. Its the effect of surprise after that which changed.
That is not what the text says. It says the situation in which the cube was unnoticed until it engulfed a PC gives it surprise. You're assuming the consequent and reading what you think the rules are into the example, despite the example not saying that.