Genuinely don't know where to post this, I've looked around for clarification but I find literally nothing.
So the Oath of the Noble Genies has a feature called Elemental Smite (or Elemental Strike in the builder). I'm confused about the Dao's Crush option. Here's the important part of the feature:
Immediately after you cast Divine Smite, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity and invoke one of the following effects.
Dao’s Crush. Earth rises up around the target of your Divine Smite. The target has the Grappled condition (escape DC equal to your spell save DC). While Grappled, the target has the Restrained condition.
My issue is, this feature does not tell you how the target is meant to escape from the effect. Every other instance of an effect like this I've seen explicitly says whether the creature makes a saving throw at some point, or that they can use an Action to make an ability check to escape. I have checked the rules for Grappling, which does say:
One Grapple per Hand. A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature. Some stat blocks and game effects allow a creature to grapple using a tentacle, a maw, or another body part. Whatever part a grappler uses, it can grapple only one creature at a time with that part, and the grappler can’t use that part to target another creature unless it ends the grapple.
Ending a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range. In addition, the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required).
I expect people will respond that the target can just use an action to escape, but following the rules for normal Grappling, does that mean the Grapple also ends if the Paladin is Incapacitated? Or that the Paladin needs a hand free to maintain the Grapple? Or that the target only remains Grappled as long as the Paladin stays within reach of it? If these answer to any of those is no, then why would the escape be the same as normal?
This option is written like a buffed Grapple, but the effect itself is clearly not a normal Grapple, and needs some clarification. I had to go hunting in the rules to find out how this is meant to end - it should just be written in the feature. The fact that this includes the Restrained condition says to be it should be worded and explained in the same way as other effects that cause it, like Entangle or Ensnaring Strike - which both state you escape by making an ability check.
I think you may be over complicating it. The paladin is not grappling the creature, the earth around it is. So, no the paladin doesn’t need to use one of their hands or stay there or maintain concentration or anything. You already quoted the rules for escaping the grapple. The power specifies the escape DC is equal to the paladin’s spell save DC.
The escape is the same as normal, because there’s nothing that says it’s not normal. Rules only do what they say. They don’t imply anything.
The reason they didn’t go into more detail is the power just follows the standard rules. The target has the grappled condition, there’s rules on how to end the grappled condition. They save themselves having to re-write the same instructions every time grappled comes up.
The grapple's source is not defined. (Is it the original square of the grappled creature?)
The grapple's range is not defined. (Is it 5 feet?)
Please don't incapacitate the ground.
Apart from that, Strength or Dexterity checks can end it as normal. Forced movement out of the grapple's range (requires DM's ruling on the above). Teleporting automatically escapes the grapple.
I would personally rule it as a grapple originating from the square or squares the grappled creature was in with a range of 0 feet (completely leaving the square or squares ends the grapple).
The target of Dao's Crush isn't grappled by the character itself. I'd rule Dao's Crush grappling effect originate in the target's space with a range is 0 feet if it ever needed to be determined somehow for other adjudication.
It's essentially the same sort of thing as maximilian's earthen grasp, so I'd use the rule from that rather than the normal rules for escaping a grapple
To break out, the restrained target can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target escapes and is no longer restrained by the hand.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell has many differences with Dao's Crush, it doesn't impose the Grappled condition, originate in an unoccupied space and affect target within 5 feet of it.
The spell has many differences with Dao's Crush, it doesn't impose the Grappled condition, originate in an unoccupied space and affect target within 5 feet of it.
Good thing I didn't say they were identical then
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell has many differences with Dao's Crush, it doesn't impose the Grappled condition, originate in an unoccupied space and affect target within 5 feet of it.
Good thing I didn't say they were identical then
Neither did i. If you think its essentially the same you might have missed this other important difference;
A Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check leave more options to escape than a Strength check with no skill applying your Proficiency Bonus.
Neither did i. If you think its essentially the same you might have missed this other important difference
A Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check leave more options to escape than a Strength check with no skill applying your Proficiency Bonus.
No, my dude, I didn't miss anything
Please explain narratively how'd you use Acrobatics to escape being encased in a big pile of dirt
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Neither did i. If you think its essentially the same you might have missed this other important difference
A Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check leave more options to escape than a Strength check with no skill applying your Proficiency Bonus.
No, my dude, I didn't miss anything
Please explain narratively how'd you use Acrobatics to escape being encased in a big pile of dirt
Attacks Affected.Attack rolls against you have Advantage, and your attack rolls have Disadvantage.
Saving Throws Affected.You have Disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
No size restriction.
Paladin is not the grappler – the “earth” is the grappler.
No “free hand” requirement.
Target is not movable.
Paladin does not need to be within or stay within grapple range.
Concentration required to maintain the grapple after the end of Target’s turn (Paladin can elect to concentrate immediately or as a Reaction at the end of Target's turn).
On its turn, a Target may use an action to break the grapple.
Normal DC to escape grapple is bypassed in favor of the DC being the paladin's spell save DC (as opposed to 8 + Strength Bonus plus Proficiency Bonus).
Grapple expires after 1 minute if not sooner broken.
Attacks Affected.Attack rolls against you have Advantage, and your attack rolls have Disadvantage.
Saving Throws Affected.You have Disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
No size restriction.
Paladin is not the grappler – the “earth” is the grappler.
No “free hand” requirement.
Target is not movable.
Paladin does not need to be within or stay within grapple range.
Concentration required to maintain the grapple after the end of Target’s turn (Paladin can elect to concentrate immediately or as a Reaction at the end of Target's turn).
On its turn, a Target may use an action to break the grapple.
Normal DC to escape grapple is bypassed in favor of the DC being the paladin's spell save DC (as opposed to 8 + Strength Bonus plus Proficiency Bonus).
Grapple expires after 1 minute if not sooner broken.
Where does the concentration requirement come from? The spell is instantaneous. Neither Channel Divinity generally nor Dao's Crush specifically require concentration (and why would they, they aren't spells). The restrained effect is, in fact, non-magical. (ie, it is an instantaneous effect of the spell, and afterwards the earth is just there, encasing them.)
Grapple/Grappling is a D20 test, Grappled is a condition. Dao's Crush gives the target the Grappled condition and, while it has the Grappled condition, the Restrained condition. There is no Grappler, so any rules referring to the Grappler do not apply. The escape DC is specified in the feature, making it a specific rule that overrides the general rules.
It is admittedly a poorly worded feature, and the effect has an unlimited duration ended only by the escape attempt vs your Spell Save DC, with each attempt taking the target's action. Also, since there is no grappler, there is no range to exceed to escape it.
Where does the concentration requirement come from? The spell is instantaneous. Neither Channel Divinity generally nor Dao's Crush specifically require concentration (and why would they, they aren't spells). The restrained effect is, in fact, non-magical. (ie, it is an instantaneous effect of the spell, and afterwards the earth is just there, encasing them.)
It appears to be an ad hoc house rule. RAW, you are correct.
Concentration is purely a house rule. If you don't have some concentration requirement then, RAW, the grapple could be forever, which was probably not WOTC's intent. I think you'd have trouble pointing to another control spell or effect that wasn't limited either by duration or concentration (or both), particularly one available at 3rd level. In fact, the 9th level Abjure Foes (Channel Divinity) class feature has a 1 minute duration as does 2nd level Cleric Turn Undead (Channel Divinity). And fwiw, the restrained effect is absolutely magically induced, similar to Bigby's, which is why the grapple break is spell save DC based.
The Grappled condition usually last until Ending a Grapple occur. I can't think of a grappling effect with a set duration given.
The Dao's Crush ability is quoted above and has no set duration given. I suspect the duration is meant to be the start or end of the Paladin's next turn since it is triggered on a Divine Smite.
The Grappled condition usually last until Ending a Grapple occur. I can't think of a grappling effect with a set duration given.
The Dao's Crush ability is quoted above and has no set duration given. I suspect the duration is meant to be the start or end of the Paladin's next turn since it is triggered on a Divine Smite.
Effect that last until the start/end of your next turn specifically say so. Grappling effects typically do not have such set duration.
The Grappled condition usually last until Ending a Grapple occur. I can't think of a grappling effect with a set duration given.
The Dao's Crush ability is quoted above and has no set duration given. I suspect the duration is meant to be the start or end of the Paladin's next turn since it is triggered on a Divine Smite.
Effect that last until the start/end of your next turn specifically say so. Grappling effects typically do not have such set duration.
Genuinely don't know where to post this, I've looked around for clarification but I find literally nothing.
So the Oath of the Noble Genies has a feature called Elemental Smite (or Elemental Strike in the builder). I'm confused about the Dao's Crush option. Here's the important part of the feature:
Immediately after you cast Divine Smite, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity and invoke one of the following effects.
Dao’s Crush. Earth rises up around the target of your Divine Smite. The target has the Grappled condition (escape DC equal to your spell save DC). While Grappled, the target has the Restrained condition.
My issue is, this feature does not tell you how the target is meant to escape from the effect. Every other instance of an effect like this I've seen explicitly says whether the creature makes a saving throw at some point, or that they can use an Action to make an ability check to escape. I have checked the rules for Grappling, which does say:
One Grapple per Hand. A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature. Some stat blocks and game effects allow a creature to grapple using a tentacle, a maw, or another body part. Whatever part a grappler uses, it can grapple only one creature at a time with that part, and the grappler can’t use that part to target another creature unless it ends the grapple.
Ending a Grapple. A Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success. The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range. In addition, the grappler can release the target at any time (no action required).
I expect people will respond that the target can just use an action to escape, but following the rules for normal Grappling, does that mean the Grapple also ends if the Paladin is Incapacitated? Or that the Paladin needs a hand free to maintain the Grapple? Or that the target only remains Grappled as long as the Paladin stays within reach of it? If these answer to any of those is no, then why would the escape be the same as normal?
This option is written like a buffed Grapple, but the effect itself is clearly not a normal Grapple, and needs some clarification. I had to go hunting in the rules to find out how this is meant to end - it should just be written in the feature. The fact that this includes the Restrained condition says to be it should be worded and explained in the same way as other effects that cause it, like Entangle or Ensnaring Strike - which both state you escape by making an ability check.
I think you may be over complicating it.
The paladin is not grappling the creature, the earth around it is. So, no the paladin doesn’t need to use one of their hands or stay there or maintain concentration or anything.
You already quoted the rules for escaping the grapple. The power specifies the escape DC is equal to the paladin’s spell save DC.
The escape is the same as normal, because there’s nothing that says it’s not normal. Rules only do what they say. They don’t imply anything.
The reason they didn’t go into more detail is the power just follows the standard rules. The target has the grappled condition, there’s rules on how to end the grappled condition. They save themselves having to re-write the same instructions every time grappled comes up.
There are a few issues.
Apart from that, Strength or Dexterity checks can end it as normal. Forced movement out of the grapple's range (requires DM's ruling on the above). Teleporting automatically escapes the grapple.
I would personally rule it as a grapple originating from the square or squares the grappled creature was in with a range of 0 feet (completely leaving the square or squares ends the grapple).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The target of Dao's Crush isn't grappled by the character itself. I'd rule Dao's Crush grappling effect originate in the target's space with a range is 0 feet if it ever needed to be determined somehow for other adjudication.
It's essentially the same sort of thing as maximilian's earthen grasp, so I'd use the rule from that rather than the normal rules for escaping a grapple
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell has many differences with Dao's Crush, it doesn't impose the Grappled condition, originate in an unoccupied space and affect target within 5 feet of it.
Good thing I didn't say they were identical then
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Neither did i. If you think its essentially the same you might have missed this other important difference;
A Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check leave more options to escape than a Strength check with no skill applying your Proficiency Bonus.
No, my dude, I didn't miss anything
Please explain narratively how'd you use Acrobatics to escape being encased in a big pile of dirt
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Breakdancing 🙃
Worked it through on my table, here's what we came up with:
Where does the concentration requirement come from? The spell is instantaneous. Neither Channel Divinity generally nor Dao's Crush specifically require concentration (and why would they, they aren't spells). The restrained effect is, in fact, non-magical. (ie, it is an instantaneous effect of the spell, and afterwards the earth is just there, encasing them.)
Grapple/Grappling is a D20 test, Grappled is a condition. Dao's Crush gives the target the Grappled condition and, while it has the Grappled condition, the Restrained condition. There is no Grappler, so any rules referring to the Grappler do not apply. The escape DC is specified in the feature, making it a specific rule that overrides the general rules.
It is admittedly a poorly worded feature, and the effect has an unlimited duration ended only by the escape attempt vs your Spell Save DC, with each attempt taking the target's action. Also, since there is no grappler, there is no range to exceed to escape it.
It appears to be an ad hoc house rule. RAW, you are correct.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Concentration is purely a house rule. If you don't have some concentration requirement then, RAW, the grapple could be forever, which was probably not WOTC's intent. I think you'd have trouble pointing to another control spell or effect that wasn't limited either by duration or concentration (or both), particularly one available at 3rd level. In fact, the 9th level Abjure Foes (Channel Divinity) class feature has a 1 minute duration as does 2nd level Cleric Turn Undead (Channel Divinity). And fwiw, the restrained effect is absolutely magically induced, similar to Bigby's, which is why the grapple break is spell save DC based.
The Grappled condition usually last until Ending a Grapple occur. I can't think of a grappling effect with a set duration given.
The Dao's Crush ability is quoted above and has no set duration given. I suspect the duration is meant to be the start or end of the Paladin's next turn since it is triggered on a Divine Smite.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Bibgy's - 1 Minute duration (and concentration).
Effect that last until the start/end of your next turn specifically say so. Grappling effects typically do not have such set duration.
Oh, I see. I misread your post. Mea culpa.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.