The gelatinous cubeOoze Trait also say creatures can enter its space and be subjected to the cube's Engulf which would not be used by the Cube but resulting from the creature moving into it and be surprised. But it would only when failing to spot it, otherwise you're not surprised.
Ooze Cube. The cube takes up its entire space. Other creatures can enter the space, but a creature that does so is subjected to the cube's Engulf and has disadvantage on the saving throw.
A germane example needs one where the initial hostile action is completely undetected by the other side. An invisible unperceived attacker, or a sorceror casting with subtle spell, or similar. The gelatinous cube example from 2014 is the only germane example I have seen in any rulebook or any SAC discussion.
Exactly, if there's no example of it in 5E24, then there's no rule support for it in 5E24.
And the example in 5E14 you refer too never explicitly say it uses Engulf before initiative. If you carefully read the sentence, you will see it's more narrative than mechanic. Here's why;
A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. In these situations, one side of the battle gains surprise over the other.
The actual Transparent trait says the following"
Transparent. Even when the cube is in plain sight, it takes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a cube that has neither moved nor attacked. A creature that tries to enter the cube's space while unaware of the cube is surprised by the cube.
Meaning that if the A gelatinous cube glides down a dungeon passage, you spot it because it has moved.
It says the Cube is unnoticed by the adventurers until the cube engulfs one of them. Nothing says it's before Initiative considering Surprise is determine at the 1st Combat Step by Step and one can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat.
Wow.
"In these situations". Which situations? The ones just described. What situation was described? A PC already engulfed by a cube because the party didn't notice it. That situation gives the cube surprise. Since it gets surprise after engulfing the PC, the engulf happened before combat/initiative.
Getting to your reading requires a level of mental gymnastics to arrive at a desired conclusion that is unwarranted and unjustified.
And no, there's no germane example in 2024. Which means no support for your argument either. The only rule is 'The DM decides when combat starts'. It never says what you want it to say: something to the effect of 'any hostile act causes combat to start before that action is taken'.
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Let's try another example. The party Rogue/scout is 200' away from the rest of the party in the dungeon, too far away to be seen (and probably several walls in between them) or heard. He initiates combat with a monster.
-Is the party surprised?
-Does the rest of the party roll initiative right then?
-When, if ever, would the rest of the party roll initiative?
And no, there's no germane example in 2024. Which means no support for your argument either. The only rule is 'The DM decides when combat starts'. It never says what you want it to say: something to the effect of 'any hostile act causes combat to start before that action is taken'.
Yes there is an example in 5E24 saying action initiating combat happen after Initiative. What is missing is an exemple saying something different that would support your claim.
Rolling Initiative
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can't just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
"In these situations". Which situations? The ones just described. What situation was described? A PC already engulfed by a cube because the party didn't notice it. That situation gives the cube surprise. Since it gets surprise after engulfing the PC, the engulf happened before combat/initiative.
A creature can be subjected to the cube's Engulf without the cube using an action as explained in its Ooze Cube Trait.
Ooze Cube. The cube takes up its entire space. Other creatures can enter the space, but a creature that does so is subjected to the cube's Engulf and has disadvantage on the saving throw.
Let's try another example. The party Rogue/scout is 200' away from the rest of the party in the dungeon, too far away to be seen (and probably several walls in between them) or heard. He initiates combat with a monster.
-Is the party surprised?
-Does the rest of the party roll initiative right then?
-When, if ever, would the rest of the party roll initiative?
Ask your DM. If you're the DM, decides wether the party are too far away to be in an encounter or not and if it can be surprised by its own Rogue.
And no, there's no germane example in 2024. Which means no support for your argument either. The only rule is 'The DM decides when combat starts'. It never says what you want it to say: something to the effect of 'any hostile act causes combat to start before that action is taken'.
Yes there is an example in 5E24 saying action initiating combat happen after Initiative. What is missing is an exemple saying something different that would support your claim.
Rolling Initiative
Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does. Some characters have abilities that trigger on an Initiative roll; you, not the players, decide if and when Initiative is rolled. A high-level Barbarian can't just punch their Paladin friend and roll Initiative to regain expended uses of Rage.
In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
Maybe read that first sentence again? "Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does."
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll. We know their action initiated combat. We know the DM can give them advantage on their initiative roll. But it doesn't actually say that action happens after initiative. In fact, the grammar suggests it happened before combat starting: "a character's actions initiate combat" has the actions in question happening before the initiating of combat, because it's the actions that cause the combat to initiate. (And a cause cannot happen after the event it causes).
What's missing from any of these rules is any sort of future tense. For your interpretation to be correct, the rule would have to instead say "In any situation where a character's declared action would initiate combat." Now the action and its consequences are in the future. But it doesn't say that.
Compare "the throw to the first baseman throws the batter out" with "the throw to the first baseman will throw the batter out". In the first case, the throw has already happened. In the second, the toss hasn't happened yet, but could or will happen in the future.
Grammar matters. Lack of future tense is determinative.
"In these situations". Which situations? The ones just described. What situation was described? A PC already engulfed by a cube because the party didn't notice it. That situation gives the cube surprise. Since it gets surprise after engulfing the PC, the engulf happened before combat/initiative.
A creature can be subjected to the cube's Engulf without the cube using an action as explained in its Ooze Cube Trait.
Ooze Cube. The cube takes up its entire space. Other creatures can enter the space, but a creature that does so is subjected to the cube's Engulf and has disadvantage on the saving throw.
The example specifically says the cube does the engulfing, not that the PC walked into it.
Let's try another example. The party Rogue/scout is 200' away from the rest of the party in the dungeon, too far away to be seen (and probably several walls in between them) or heard. He initiates combat with a monster.
-Is the party surprised?
-Does the rest of the party roll initiative right then?
-When, if ever, would the rest of the party roll initiative?
Ask your DM. If you're the DM, decides wether the party are too far away to be in an encounter or not and if it can be surprised by its own Rogue.
You can't even tell from the question if the party is "in an encounter"? Really? If you can't figure out who rolls initiative in that example, the initiative rules in your understanding must be pretty useless.
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll.
It doesn't commit, but it strongly implies, because the advantage is supposed to represent the action being a surprise, and your second action is not a surprise.
Personally, I prefer to just say that a surprise action that initiates combat wins initiative -- but you will generally need to make rolls to actually be a surprise.
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll.
It doesn't commit, but it strongly implies, because the advantage is supposed to represent the action being a surprise, and your second action is not a surprise.
Personally, I prefer to just say that a surprise action that initiates combat wins initiative -- but you will generally need to make rolls to actually be a surprise.
The grammar suggests the opposite, actually. There's no future tense.
The grammar suggests the opposite, actually. There's no future tense.
Regardless of grammar, the only reason to grant advantage on initiative is to cause the triggering action to be likely to be the actual first action of combat. If the triggering action is intended to be outside of combat, the character who initiated combat should go last.
The grammar suggests the opposite, actually. There's no future tense.
Regardless of grammar, the only reason to grant advantage on initiative is to cause the triggering action to be likely to be the actual first action of combat. If the triggering action is intended to be outside of combat, the character who initiated combat should go last.
No, the action surprised them, so the initiating character is still more likely to act again before they are.
You use a pistol to shoot someone by surprise. Chances are, you get another shot off before anyone else can draw on you because everyone else is surprised by the shot, but if their reactions are really fast, they might manage to shoot first. Surprise entails slower reaction to the initial action.
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll. We know their action initiated combat. We know the DM can give them advantage on their initiative roll. But it doesn't actually say that action happens after initiative. In fact, the grammar suggests it happened before combat starting: "a character's actions initiate combat" has the actions in question happening before the initiating of combat, because it's the actions that cause the combat to initiate. (And a cause cannot happen after the event it causes).
It's more than clear the spell isn't cast since if the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off. Meaning if it roll poorly, the Sorcerer's turn goes first and can cast the spell.
if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
The example specifically says the cube does the engulfing, not that the PC walked into it.
The example doesn't work well within the rules as a a gliding gelatinous cube is spot before it can surprise anyone because it moves and you can thus see it.
Even when the cube is in plain sight, it takes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a cube that has neither moved nor attacked.
You can't even tell from the question if the party is "in an encounter"? Really? If you can't figure out who rolls initiative in that example, the initiative rules in your understanding must be pretty useless.
I can tell you i don't typically have creatures in different rooms with several walls in between them take part in an encounter.
No, the action surprised them, so the initiating character is still more likely to act again before they are.
You use a pistol to shoot someone by surprise. Chances are, you get another shot off before anyone else can draw on you because everyone else is surprised by the shot, but if their reactions are really fast, they might manage to shoot first. Surprise entails slower reaction to the initial action.
The listed example doesn't reference surprise. If you're in a meeting with a bunch of armed and combat-trained people (yeah, you can surprise CR 0 commoners and they'll probably run around like chickens with their heads cut off for multiple rounds... so?) and you decide to draw your gun and shoot someone, you do have a pretty good chance of going first (ergo advantage on initiative) but you're probably going to go down in a hail of lead before you get to do anything more.
No, the action surprised them, so the initiating character is still more likely to act again before they are.
You use a pistol to shoot someone by surprise. Chances are, you get another shot off before anyone else can draw on you because everyone else is surprised by the shot, but if their reactions are really fast, they might manage to shoot first. Surprise entails slower reaction to the initial action.
The listed example doesn't reference surprise. If you're in a meeting with a bunch of armed and combat-trained people (yeah, you can surprise CR 0 commoners and they'll probably run around like chickens with their heads cut off for multiple rounds... so?) and you decide to draw your gun and shoot someone, you do have a pretty good chance of going first (ergo advantage on initiative) but you're probably going to go down in a hail of lead before you get to do anything more.
I mean, if i'm visibly drawing a pistol, yeah, that triggers everyone scrambling for their guns before a shot is fired.
If I shoot from an unseen position, now they're scrambling for their guns while i'm lining up my second shot. I'm probably getting that second shot before they get their guns out.
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll. We know their action initiated combat. We know the DM can give them advantage on their initiative roll. But it doesn't actually say that action happens after initiative. In fact, the grammar suggests it happened before combat starting: "a character's actions initiate combat" has the actions in question happening before the initiating of combat, because it's the actions that cause the combat to initiate. (And a cause cannot happen after the event it causes).
It's more than clear the spell isn't cast since if the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off. Meaning if it roll poorly, the Sorcerer's turn goes first and can cast the spell.
if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off, reflecting the monster's ability to anticipate the spell.
You say more clear, i say more incoherent. The example says the Sorceror has targeted the doppelganger already - that means the spell was already successfully cast, because you only choose targets when you finish casting a spell. Nor is it clear why the mere fact of spellcasting caused combat in the first place. The example assumes obviously false things about other rules, why should I expect it to get the initiative rules correct?
The example specifically says the cube does the engulfing, not that the PC walked into it.
The example doesn't work well within the rules as a a gliding gelatinous cube is spot before it can surprise anyone because it moves and you can thus see it.
Even when the cube is in plain sight, it takes a successful DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot a cube that has neither moved nor attacked.
I mean, maybe the party has terrible perception? The example clearly says the Cube glides down the passage and engulfs a PC. So the Cube is moving, the party doesn't notice it despite that, a PC gets engulfed, and just after that moment is when the party becomes aware of it and it causes surprise. The text of the example is crystal clear. It doesn't tell us why the party doesn't notice it moving, but it does tell us they don't.
You can't even tell from the question if the party is "in an encounter"? Really? If you can't figure out who rolls initiative in that example, the initiative rules in your understanding must be pretty useless.
I can tell you i don't typically have creatures in different rooms with several walls in between them take part in an encounter.
If I shoot from an unseen position, now they're scrambling for their guns while i'm lining up my second shot. I'm probably getting that second shot before they get their guns out.
And in 2014 that might be true (you get your first shot when everyone else is surprised, and on the second round of combat you might win initiative). 2024 decided that they wanted to make surprise not do much.
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
It means i don't have creatures in different rooms elsewhere roll initiative and be participants in a combat encounter when they're not there. Usually, when a combat encounter starts, it only involve creatures nearby, especially in a more crowded place like a Dungeon, otherwise, too many monsters can participate if activated.
You may have different experiences than i do, i don't know for others i only speak for myself, but its generally the way dungeons are handled in presential games i attended, run, witnessed or watch online.
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
It means i don't have creatures in different rooms elsewhere roll initiative and be participants in a combat encounter when they're not there. Usually, when a combat encounter starts, it only involve creatures nearby, especially in a more crowded place like a Dungeon, otherwise, too many monsters can participate if activated.
You may have different experiences than i do, i don't know for others i only speak for myself, but its generally the way dungeons are handled in presential games i attended, run, witnessed or watch online.
I hope it's more clear for you now.
Okay, so it would be fair to say that only the monsters in the group that the rogue attacks, and the rogue himself, rolls initiative in that situation?
So my question was: why do you only include those monsters/creatures? What's the reason 'not being there' means not participating in combat?
(Do things change if the rogue manages to cast Thunderwave somehow, which is audible out to 300'?)
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
It means i don't have creatures in different rooms elsewhere roll initiative and be participants in a combat encounter when they're not there. Usually, when a combat encounter starts, it only involve creatures nearby, especially in a more crowded place like a Dungeon, otherwise, too many monsters can participate if activated.
You may have different experiences than i do, i don't know for others i only speak for myself, but its generally the way dungeons are handled in presential games i attended, run, witnessed or watch online.
I hope it's more clear for you now.
Okay, so it would be fair to say that only the monsters in the group that the rogue attacks, and the rogue himself, rolls initiative in that situation?
So my question was: why do you only include those monsters/creatures? What's the reason 'not being there' means not participating in combat?
(Do things change if the rogue manages to cast Thunderwave somehow, which is audible out to 300'?)
Yes, i would only have the Rogue and monsters roll Initiative if the rest of the party is several rooms away.
The Rogue and monsters are are the only one rolling Initiative because they're the only participants present at the start of combat.
It likely wouldn't change anything that people hear some noise in the distance once Thunderwave is cast, other than possibly attract them to the combat scene as we often can see in adventures, where it describe creatures hearing sound of combats may arrive X Rounds later for example.
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
It means i don't have creatures in different rooms elsewhere roll initiative and be participants in a combat encounter when they're not there. Usually, when a combat encounter starts, it only involve creatures nearby, especially in a more crowded place like a Dungeon, otherwise, too many monsters can participate if activated.
You may have different experiences than i do, i don't know for others i only speak for myself, but its generally the way dungeons are handled in presential games i attended, run, witnessed or watch online.
I hope it's more clear for you now.
Okay, so it would be fair to say that only the monsters in the group that the rogue attacks, and the rogue himself, rolls initiative in that situation?
So my question was: why do you only include those monsters/creatures? What's the reason 'not being there' means not participating in combat?
(Do things change if the rogue manages to cast Thunderwave somehow, which is audible out to 300'?)
Yes, i would only have the Rogue and monsters roll Initiative if the rest of the party is several rooms away.
The Rogue and monsters are are the only one rolling Initiative because they're the only participants present at the start of combat.
It likely wouldn't change anything that people hear some noise in the distance once Thunderwave is cast, other than possibly attract them to the combat scene as we often can see in adventures, where it describe creatures hearing sound of combats may arrive X Rounds later for example.
Socratic method takes so long when I'm trying to get you to go like 2 layers of reasoning deeper... So... what does it mean to be present at the start of combat?
ie, if the party could hear and/or see combat starting, even though it's 200' away, are they 'present'? Do they roll initiative then?
Socratic method takes so long when I'm trying to get you to go like 2 layers of reasoning deeper... So... what does it mean to be present at the start of combat?
It means you're aware of combat. For example, if you're being attacked, you're present at the start of combat, because whether or not you were aware before the attack, you are certainly aware after.
The gelatinous cube Ooze Trait also say creatures can enter its space and be subjected to the cube's Engulf which would not be used by the Cube but resulting from the creature moving into it and be surprised. But it would only when failing to spot it, otherwise you're not surprised.
Wow.
"In these situations". Which situations? The ones just described. What situation was described? A PC already engulfed by a cube because the party didn't notice it. That situation gives the cube surprise. Since it gets surprise after engulfing the PC, the engulf happened before combat/initiative.
Getting to your reading requires a level of mental gymnastics to arrive at a desired conclusion that is unwarranted and unjustified.
And no, there's no germane example in 2024. Which means no support for your argument either. The only rule is 'The DM decides when combat starts'. It never says what you want it to say: something to the effect of 'any hostile act causes combat to start before that action is taken'.
--------------
Let's try another example. The party Rogue/scout is 200' away from the rest of the party in the dungeon, too far away to be seen (and probably several walls in between them) or heard. He initiates combat with a monster.
-Is the party surprised?
-Does the rest of the party roll initiative right then?
-When, if ever, would the rest of the party roll initiative?
Yes there is an example in 5E24 saying action initiating combat happen after Initiative. What is missing is an exemple saying something different that would support your claim.
A creature can be subjected to the cube's Engulf without the cube using an action as explained in its Ooze Cube Trait.
Ask your DM. If you're the DM, decides wether the party are too far away to be in an encounter or not and if it can be surprised by its own Rogue.
Maybe read that first sentence again? "Combat starts when—and only when—you say it does."
Also note the first sentence in the second paragraph doesn't actually say what you seem to think it does. "In any situation where a character's actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll." This doesn't actually commit to whether the action that initiates combat happens before or after the initiative roll. We know their action initiated combat. We know the DM can give them advantage on their initiative roll. But it doesn't actually say that action happens after initiative. In fact, the grammar suggests it happened before combat starting: "a character's actions initiate combat" has the actions in question happening before the initiating of combat, because it's the actions that cause the combat to initiate. (And a cause cannot happen after the event it causes).
What's missing from any of these rules is any sort of future tense. For your interpretation to be correct, the rule would have to instead say "In any situation where a character's declared action would initiate combat." Now the action and its consequences are in the future. But it doesn't say that.
Compare "the throw to the first baseman throws the batter out" with "the throw to the first baseman will throw the batter out". In the first case, the throw has already happened. In the second, the toss hasn't happened yet, but could or will happen in the future.
Grammar matters. Lack of future tense is determinative.
The example specifically says the cube does the engulfing, not that the PC walked into it.
You can't even tell from the question if the party is "in an encounter"? Really? If you can't figure out who rolls initiative in that example, the initiative rules in your understanding must be pretty useless.
It doesn't commit, but it strongly implies, because the advantage is supposed to represent the action being a surprise, and your second action is not a surprise.
Personally, I prefer to just say that a surprise action that initiates combat wins initiative -- but you will generally need to make rolls to actually be a surprise.
The grammar suggests the opposite, actually. There's no future tense.
Regardless of grammar, the only reason to grant advantage on initiative is to cause the triggering action to be likely to be the actual first action of combat. If the triggering action is intended to be outside of combat, the character who initiated combat should go last.
No, the action surprised them, so the initiating character is still more likely to act again before they are.
You use a pistol to shoot someone by surprise. Chances are, you get another shot off before anyone else can draw on you because everyone else is surprised by the shot, but if their reactions are really fast, they might manage to shoot first. Surprise entails slower reaction to the initial action.
It's more than clear the spell isn't cast since if the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer's spell goes off. Meaning if it roll poorly, the Sorcerer's turn goes first and can cast the spell.
The example doesn't work well within the rules as a a gliding gelatinous cube is spot before it can surprise anyone because it moves and you can thus see it.
I can tell you i don't typically have creatures in different rooms with several walls in between them take part in an encounter.
The listed example doesn't reference surprise. If you're in a meeting with a bunch of armed and combat-trained people (yeah, you can surprise CR 0 commoners and they'll probably run around like chickens with their heads cut off for multiple rounds... so?) and you decide to draw your gun and shoot someone, you do have a pretty good chance of going first (ergo advantage on initiative) but you're probably going to go down in a hail of lead before you get to do anything more.
I mean, if i'm visibly drawing a pistol, yeah, that triggers everyone scrambling for their guns before a shot is fired.
If I shoot from an unseen position, now they're scrambling for their guns while i'm lining up my second shot. I'm probably getting that second shot before they get their guns out.
You say more clear, i say more incoherent. The example says the Sorceror has targeted the doppelganger already - that means the spell was already successfully cast, because you only choose targets when you finish casting a spell. Nor is it clear why the mere fact of spellcasting caused combat in the first place. The example assumes obviously false things about other rules, why should I expect it to get the initiative rules correct?
I mean, maybe the party has terrible perception? The example clearly says the Cube glides down the passage and engulfs a PC. So the Cube is moving, the party doesn't notice it despite that, a PC gets engulfed, and just after that moment is when the party becomes aware of it and it causes surprise. The text of the example is crystal clear. It doesn't tell us why the party doesn't notice it moving, but it does tell us they don't.
Okay, good. Why?
Because i don't activate the entire dungeon when the party get in the first room.
And in 2014 that might be true (you get your first shot when everyone else is surprised, and on the second round of combat you might win initiative). 2024 decided that they wanted to make surprise not do much.
Huh, that doesn't make any sense. The Rogue is like three or more rooms in scouting. Surely the rooms around the rogue are 'activated', whatever that means.
It means i don't have creatures in different rooms elsewhere roll initiative and be participants in a combat encounter when they're not there. Usually, when a combat encounter starts, it only involve creatures nearby, especially in a more crowded place like a Dungeon, otherwise, too many monsters can participate if activated.
You may have different experiences than i do, i don't know for others i only speak for myself, but its generally the way dungeons are handled in presential games i attended, run, witnessed or watch online.
I hope it's more clear for you now.
Okay, so it would be fair to say that only the monsters in the group that the rogue attacks, and the rogue himself, rolls initiative in that situation?
So my question was: why do you only include those monsters/creatures? What's the reason 'not being there' means not participating in combat?
(Do things change if the rogue manages to cast Thunderwave somehow, which is audible out to 300'?)
Yes, i would only have the Rogue and monsters roll Initiative if the rest of the party is several rooms away.
The Rogue and monsters are are the only one rolling Initiative because they're the only participants present at the start of combat.
It likely wouldn't change anything that people hear some noise in the distance once Thunderwave is cast, other than possibly attract them to the combat scene as we often can see in adventures, where it describe creatures hearing sound of combats may arrive X Rounds later for example.
Socratic method takes so long when I'm trying to get you to go like 2 layers of reasoning deeper... So... what does it mean to be present at the start of combat?
ie, if the party could hear and/or see combat starting, even though it's 200' away, are they 'present'? Do they roll initiative then?
It means you're aware of combat. For example, if you're being attacked, you're present at the start of combat, because whether or not you were aware before the attack, you are certainly aware after.