5.5e and Attacking First While Invisible

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Depends if the DM determine they're participants in combat starting or not. 

 

 If you keep resorting to rules formalism, it's just circular.  "Why does the DM determine they're participants?  Because he determines they're participants".  That's not an answer, that's an evasion.  You're trying really hard to avoid saying 'because the ones who are participants are aware of combat, and the ones who aren't are not aware of combat.'

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 Socratic method takes so long when I'm trying to get you to go like 2 layers of reasoning deeper...  So... what does it mean to be present at the start of combat?

It means you're aware of combat. For example, if you're being attacked, you're present at the start of combat, because whether or not you were aware before the attack, you are certainly aware after.

 The first sentence is of course the right answer.  I hope you can see the tension between that and your second sentence.

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 The first sentence is of course the right answer.  I hope you can see the tension between that and your second sentence.

I do not.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 The first sentence is of course the right answer.  I hope you can see the tension between that and your second sentence.

I do not.

 If to be present at the start of combat means to be aware of combat, and you aren't aware until after the attack, then the start of combat must be after the attack.

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

 If to be present at the start of combat means to be aware of combat, and you aren't aware until after the attack, then the start of combat must be after the attack.

The start of combat is someone declaring a hostile action, not the action being resolved.

Again, I do not actually use the 2024 surprise rules, I consider them flawed, but there's still no reason to think combat outside of initiative is a thing that exists.

Quote from Squirrelloid >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Depends if the DM determine they're participants in combat starting or not. 

 

 If you keep resorting to rules formalism, it's just circular.  "Why does the DM determine they're participants?  Because he determines they're participants".  That's not an answer, that's an evasion.  You're trying really hard to avoid saying 'because the ones who are participants are aware of combat, and the ones who aren't are not aware of combat.'

 All participants in a combat roll Initiative, including those surprised and unaware that combat is starting, as explained below.

Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.

Why does the DM determine they're participants is up to them. Usually because they're involved in the combat as explained below;

Combat Step by Step

Combat unfolds in these steps:

1. Establish Positions. The Dungeon Master determines where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are—how far away and in what direction.
2. Roll Initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls Initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
3. Take Turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in Initiative order. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat this step until the fighting stops.

Being aware that combat is starting also doesn't make you necessarily a participant in it. A combat between some people could start in a merchant plaza while others are just few feet away and not be participants involved in the combat encounter, despite being aware combat is starting for example. Same for your donkey or riding horse, i don't typically include NPCs in Initiative that are not involved in combat. 

The DM determine which creature are participants in combat starting, where they're located—how far away and in what direction.