I think ambush scenario should benefit from a minimum of narrative support, by at least conveying how or what is actually causing you to be surprised with Disadvantage to Initiative?
Maybe. But I think there's also a benefit for helping the players naturally get into character by surprising them as well. I think the narration for the cause can wait until after the first attack by the ambusher is resolved. I've seen enough actual play videos where combat starts unexpectedly, and it's very effective.
Even if you stick to RAW and roll initiative before the first attack, if the PC's don't know they're being ambushed, I think it would be valid to skip any PC turns before the ambusher and start on the attackers turn, which is what actually starts combat and makes the PC's aware combat has started.
It's probably fair to say that the designers thought the old surprise/ambushing rules were too punitive for the ambushee (I think they may have even stated this in one of their interviews in the runup to 5.24e). This certainly tones down the effectiveness and I get that some players/DMs might not like that.
I don't think many people have a issue with toning it down as it was too good. And thanks to poorly designed spells like pass without trace way too easy to pull off. It is the logical incongruity with people acting before they know anything is going wrong.
Not ever having played 2014, I don't have any bias of what is too good.
An ambush is meant to be stealthy and hidden and be able to strike 1st.
It appears that D&D has a different definition of an ambush and that different definition penalizes new players with no knowledge of how the game was played using 2014 rules.
You roll Initiative even when unaware that combat is starting. This we know because RAW says:
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Not because you declare an action that you execute it before Initiative is rolled and you take your turn. This we know because RAW says:
No, the combatant is surprised by combat starting. That implies combat has already started. Ergo, you roll initiative after combat starts, not before.
If you're unaware combat is about to start, you can't be surprised by it starting yet, because it hasn't started for you to be surprised by it. No Schroedinger's combats.
Now, combat starting can be someone visibly drawing a sword or noticeably beginning to cast a spell which you believe is hostile, in which case no attack has happened yet, but everyone is aware hostilities are commencing. But if no perceptible act takes place, combat has not started yet. The first hostile perceptible act is what causes combat to start, and the point at which initiative is rolled.
Edit: Let's examine the example in the rules where the sorceror starts casting a spell because he thinks the NPC is a changeling, or however that goes. It's horribly incomplete. Arguably, casting the spell doesn't start combat on its own. I mean, he could just be casting Detect Magic or Charm Person. If casting Friends automatically starts hostilities, the spell is literally useless.
-Sorceror starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell.
-Someone thinks the sorceror means to start a fight, draws their weapon - this is where combat starts. (The person who draws their sword is not surprised. The sorceror is not surprised if he meant to start a fight. If he's just casting prestidigitation to do a card trick, for example, he's surprised and should probably have to waste his first action on prestidigitation. Everyone else is surprised.)
-What if instead someone else also starts visibly or audibly casting a spell in response to the sorceror? Well, still no combat start yet until or unless someone decides that's a hostile action. (I mean, it gets increasingly likely someone determines one of several spellcasters who just start casting a spell is initiating hostile action...).
If we slavishly followed the DMG example, when my Wizard 1, meeting her party in a tavern for the first time, started casting minor illusion to demonstrate what she does, we should have rolled initiative and I should have started combat with surprise, because I was 'casting a spell'. That's just absolute nonsense. (Real 2024 game. No one actually called for an initiative roll).
-The sorceror can of course say something to forestall someone deciding his spell is initiating combat. "I have a clever magic trick to show you. Watch carefully." Of course, if he actually casts magic missile instead of prestidigitation, anyone who expected a magic trick is going to be surprised by the spell resolving. (If this is a pre-planned signal, none of the sorceror's allies would be surprised, because the magic trick bit is the signal that combat will commence momentarily. Probably requires a deception roll by the sorceror, quite possibly with advantage if a magic trick is something which would make sense in the context of the conversation/encounter).
-What if the Sorceror uses subtle spell for an offensive spell? No one knows the sorceror is casting a spell. Combat does not start until the spell goes off and does something perceptible, because no one has any method to be aware the sorceror is casting a spell. (Literally the only way you know a spell is being cast is by seeing one or more components of a spell - that's RAW). And if the spell effect isn't visible, no combat starts at all. Subtle dominate person does not start combat, because no one knows anything happened.
I think ambush scenario should benefit from a minimum of narrative support, by at least conveying how or what is actually causing you to be surprised with Disadvantage to Initiative?
Maybe. But I think there's also a benefit for helping the players naturally get into character by surprising them as well. I think the narration for the cause can wait until after the first attack by the ambusher is resolved. I've seen enough actual play videos where combat starts unexpectedly, and it's very effective.
Even if you stick to RAW and roll initiative before the first attack, if the PC's don't know they're being ambushed, I think it would be valid to skip any PC turns before the ambusher and start on the attackers turn, which is what actually starts combat and makes the PC's aware combat has started.
This result in those rolling better Initiative being punished and those rolling lower initiative being rewarded by being able to act during Round 1.
2024 specifically made away with surprised creature effectively skipping turns in Round 1. Instead, the rules clearly state that initiative set order in which they act during each round, where each participant takes a turn.
Initiative Order. A combatant’s check total is called their Initiative count, or Initiative for short. The DM ranks the combatants, from highest to lowest Initiative. This is the order in which they act during each round. The Initiative order remains the same from round to round.
The Order of Combat. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn.
You roll Initiative even when unaware that combat is starting. This we know because RAW says:
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Not because you declare an action that you execute it before Initiative is rolled and you take your turn. This we know because RAW says:
No, the combatant is surprised by combat starting. That implies combat has already started. Ergo, you roll initiative after combat starts, not before.
If you're unaware combat is about to start, you can't be surprised by it starting yet, because it hasn't started for you to be surprised by it. No Schroedinger's combats.
Now, combat starting can be someone visibly drawing a sword or noticeably beginning to cast a spell which you believe is hostile, in which case no attack has happened yet, but everyone is aware hostilities are commencing. But if no perceptible act takes place, combat has not started yet. The first hostile perceptible act is what causes combat to start, and the point at which initiative is rolled.
It doesn't say the combatant is surprised by combat started but By combat starting. You roll initiative at the beginning of combat.
Initiative.The order of turns is determined at the beginning of combat when everyone rolls Initiative.
The Order of Combat. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of combat when everyone rolls Initiative.
Then steps of combat don't have people acting before Initiative is rolled, but after it when they take turn.
Combat Step by Step
Combat unfolds in these steps:
Establish Positions. The Dungeon Master determines where all the characters and monsters are located. Given the adventurers’ marching order or their stated positions in the room or other location, the DM figures out where the adversaries are—how far away and in what direction.
Roll Initiative. Everyone involved in the combat encounter rolls Initiative, determining the order of combatants’ turns.
Take Turns. Each participant in the battle takes a turn in Initiative order. When everyone involved in the combat has had a turn, the round ends. Repeat this step until the fighting stops.
The game no longer have people taking more actions than others during combat. The new SRD 5.2.1 has a conversion guide from SRD 5.1 to SRD 5.2.1 for creators looking to update their materials SRD v5.2.1 - System Reference Document - D&D Beyond where they clearly mention the effect;
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
You roll Initiative even when unaware that combat is starting. This we know because RAW says:
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Not because you declare an action that you execute it before Initiative is rolled and you take your turn. This we know because RAW says:
No, the combatant is surprised by combat starting. That implies combat has already started. Ergo, you roll initiative after combat starts, not before.
If you're unaware combat is about to start, you can't be surprised by it starting yet, because it hasn't started for you to be surprised by it. No Schroedinger's combats.
Now, combat starting can be someone visibly drawing a sword or noticeably beginning to cast a spell which you believe is hostile, in which case no attack has happened yet, but everyone is aware hostilities are commencing. But if no perceptible act takes place, combat has not started yet. The first hostile perceptible act is what causes combat to start, and the point at which initiative is rolled.
It doesn't say the combatant is surprised by combat started but By combat starting. You roll initiative at the beginning of combat.
Initiative.The order of turns is determined at the beginning of combat when everyone rolls Initiative.
The Order of Combat. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of combat when everyone rolls Initiative.
Then steps of combat don't have people acting before Initiative is rolled, but after it when they take turn.
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This result in those rolling better Initiative being punished and those rolling lower initiative being rewarded by being able to act during Round 1.
2024 specifically made away with surprised creature effectively skipping turns in Round 1. Instead, the rules clearly state that initiative set order in which they act during each round, where each participant takes a turn.
Initiative Order. A combatant’s check total is called their Initiative count, or Initiative for short. The DM ranks the combatants, from highest to lowest Initiative. This is the order in which they act during each round. The Initiative order remains the same from round to round.
The Order of Combat. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn.
I disagree that it's penalizing them for rolling well on initiative. It's penalizing them for not rolling well enough on perception (and possibly stealth as well).
In this situation, the defending side has failed to roll well enough to perceive the attacker. If I was a DM running this situation in-game, sure I could give them turns because they rolled high on initiative. However, unless I'm okay with blatant metagaming, I couldn't actually allow them to do anything but continue with whatever they were already doing before the call for initiative. That is because as far as the characters know, no hostile action has happened yet.
Let me ask... what problem with the current rules do you actually have that skipping turns is the solution to? Is it that you think being ambushed* should always be able to get the jump on a party or vise versa? Is it that you think being able to act before the thing ambushing you can is awkward and unworkable?
*specifically by an invisible/hidden ambusher and not someone just charging out from the woods? I think people should more clearly define what they think would cause someone to actually be "surprised" by combat starting...)
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
What's penalizing you for not rolling well enough on perception is failing to spot hidden foe causing them to still be Invisible and have Advantage to Initiative while you have Disadvantage to Initiative.
If on top during Round 1 you are deprived from the ability to act because you rolled higher Initiative, it is more punishing than those rolling lower and able to act.
Let me ask... what problem with the current rules do you actually have that skipping turns is the solution to? Is it that you think being ambushed* should always be able to get the jump on a party or vise versa? Is it that you think being able to act before the thing ambushing you can is awkward and unworkable?
*specifically by an invisible/hidden ambusher and not someone just charging out from the woods? I think people should more clearly define what they think would cause someone to actually be "surprised" by combat starting...)
Awkward and unworkable. I laid out my reasoning in my last post. What am I supposed to do if a character gets a turn in initiative but nothing has happened to make them aware of either combat starting or even the presence of a hostile creature? What can that character do on their turn which isn't using out-of-character knowledge?
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
For the Wizard, if the character has reason to distrust the caster and think they might be acting in a hostile manner, I would say A - roll initiative immediately. That is, given only those three actions to choose from. If possible, I might go with option D - tell the Wizard to cease casting immediately or they will be considered hostile.
For the Sorcerer, the correct choice is option C. No one is aware that a spell is being cast until it happens, so it can't trigger Initiative.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
There's no dispute when combat starts. Combat starts when the DM say so as written in PHB/DMG.
Someone casting a spell may start combat or not depending on the situation and the DM decision.
That answer is useless for this question, because it just means there is no rule and the DM can decide whatever they want.
My interpretation makes the spells as written actually work. Your interpretation makes Friends literally unuseable (casting friends starts combat, so the save is automatically successful), and makes the text of spells like Charm Person redundant when they say "It does so with Advantage if you or your allies are fighting it," because you're always fighting it if you're casting a spell, so they'd always have advantage. After all, the other creatures don't know what spell you're casting. From their perspective, Friends and Fireball are indistinguishable until the spell resolves.
As such, while the rules say the DM decides, elsewhere the rules pretty strongly imply that the consequences of actions, not the initiation of actions, is what the DM should rely on for making that decision. ie, Casting a spell must only start combat if the result of the spell is obviously hostile.
And at that point, the mere presence of an undetected invisible creature cannot start combat. The intention to attack by that undetected invisible creature cannot start combat, because the potential targets have no idea of its intentions. It is only the attack itself which can start combat. Otherwise the undetected invisible creature can literally just walk away, and now you've rolled initiative for what, exactly? Where was the combat? It never started. Ergo, you rolled initiative too soon.
Let me ask... what problem with the current rules do you actually have that skipping turns is the solution to? Is it that you think being ambushed* should always be able to get the jump on a party or vise versa? Is it that you think being able to act before the thing ambushing you can is awkward and unworkable?
*specifically by an invisible/hidden ambusher and not someone just charging out from the woods? I think people should more clearly define what they think would cause someone to actually be "surprised" by combat starting...)
Awkward and unworkable. I laid out my reasoning in my last post. What am I supposed to do if a character gets a turn in initiative but nothing has happened to make them aware of either combat starting or even the presence of a hostile creature? What can that character do on their turn which isn't using out-of-character knowledge?
I like up2ng's take on it: Narrate.
The top of the order (before ambushers) is able to react to whatever is about to happen because they are just that much faster with their reflexes. If that means they take the dodge action, or ready a sword swing, or blow up the room, then so be it. Again, the ambusher is—supposedly—attacking in those same 6 seconds, so play into that. As the attack suddenly becomes visible, the PC who chose dodge was able to duck out of the way (or not, if the ambusher targeted another character). As the attack suddenly becomes visible, he gets stuck in the gut by the godly reflexes of the rogue (or not, because the attacker wasn't within range). As the attack becomes suddenly visible, the room explodes as the double 20 rolled by the wizard for initiative resulted in a fireball (or they ended up killing the tied up price they didn't spot and the attacker was actually 80 ft away with a xbow and shoots the wizard anyway).
Some of the quasi 5.24e rules proposed in this thread are even more awkward because it incentivizes the ambusher to roll low (i.e. they don't want advantage) so the party wastes their turn "doing nothing while waiting for combat to 'actually' start", effectively giving the "surprise round" that was supposed to be done away with.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
For the Wizard, if the character has reason to distrust the caster and think they might be acting in a hostile manner, I would say A - roll initiative immediately. That is, given only those three actions to choose from. If possible, I might go with option D - tell the Wizard to cease casting immediately or they will be considered hostile.
For the Sorcerer, the correct choice is option C. No one is aware that a spell is being cast until it happens, so it can't trigger Initiative.
Sorry, I tried to cover that with 'no one immediately declares a hostile response'. ie, the mere act of spellcasting wasn't enough to get them to draw swords or whatever.
I'm unconvinced by D. A round takes 6 seconds. You can cast at least one spell (potentially 3 with a bonus action and a reaction) and move your speed during that time. A 1 action spell takes 1-2 seconds. By the time you demand they stop casting, the spell is already cast. I don't think people appreciate just how fast spellcasting is in DnD post 2e. (In 2e and earlier, rounds lasted a full minute). Regardless, if it actually works, D probably also counts as a (conditionally) hostile response.
Allowing D also makes Friends unusable (and pretty much makes Charm Person unusable).
And at that point, the mere presence of an undetected invisible creature cannot start combat. The intention to attack by that undetected invisible creature cannot start combat, because the potential targets have no idea of its intentions. It is only the attack itself which can start combat. Otherwise the undetected invisible creature can literally just walk away, and now you've rolled initiative for what, exactly? Where was the combat? It never started. Ergo, you rolled initiative too soon.
That's a problem the DM can easily solve by not metagaming the ambusher's turn. They were going to attack, so they will attack. This is true for my pervious post as well. If I had decided that the ambusher was going to attack the fighter to start combat, and the fighter rolled really well for initiative and chose the dodge action, I'm not going to then change targets with that knowledge.
Being surprised by combat and initiating an ambush are not the same thing.
Generically speaking, an ambush is always premediated and planned. The location and the readiness of the ambusher occurs before those that are "victims" are anywhere near the area.
The example of a sorcerer /NPC drawing a sword/etc. are good examples of surprise.
The Orc that prepares himself, receives buff spells to make him more stealthy and goes to a location that maximizes his ability to hit and minimizes the return fire would be an ambush. Passive Perception is a great way to simulate rolled initiative. If the victims have a high enough Passive Perception, they can get out of the ambush. The ambush will trigger the initiative. That is why you can roll after the ambushers fire.
Are both victims surprised, probably. But why they are surprised is the difference. The two should not be considered under the same scenario and rules or examples.
For the above reasons, combat should be declared after an ambush is initiated. That allows the faster reflex characters to go before the ambushers, it allows the ambushers who have pre-turn knowledge of this combat to act accordingly.
I can't think for the life of me how an ambush with 2014 rules turns a well planned and executed ambush into a cluster.
And at that point, the mere presence of an undetected invisible creature cannot start combat. The intention to attack by that undetected invisible creature cannot start combat, because the potential targets have no idea of its intentions. It is only the attack itself which can start combat. Otherwise the undetected invisible creature can literally just walk away, and now you've rolled initiative for what, exactly? Where was the combat? It never started. Ergo, you rolled initiative too soon.
That's a problem the DM can easily solve by not metagaming the ambusher's turn. They were going to attack, so they will attack. This is true for my pervious post as well. If I had decided that the ambusher was going to attack the fighter to start combat, and the fighter rolled really well for initiative and chose the dodge action, I'm not going to then change targets with that knowledge.
Except he's not locked into his attack. If he sees all the PCs start suddenly reacting as if they were in combat, he probably figures he's been spotted, and withdrawing rather than fighting makes a lot of sense. He can tell he lost the element of surprise. It's not metagaming. The party is metagaming.
If I was a player in a scouting role (so my party wasn't committed), and I had the opportunity to take out a sentry by surprise, but the sentry starts calling for his buddies because he beat me on initiative, I'd just sneak away too. Sneaking away and letting him be the boy who cried wolf is absolutely the right call.
Maybe. But I think there's also a benefit for helping the players naturally get into character by surprising them as well. I think the narration for the cause can wait until after the first attack by the ambusher is resolved. I've seen enough actual play videos where combat starts unexpectedly, and it's very effective.
Even if you stick to RAW and roll initiative before the first attack, if the PC's don't know they're being ambushed, I think it would be valid to skip any PC turns before the ambusher and start on the attackers turn, which is what actually starts combat and makes the PC's aware combat has started.
Not ever having played 2014, I don't have any bias of what is too good.
An ambush is meant to be stealthy and hidden and be able to strike 1st.
It appears that D&D has a different definition of an ambush and that different definition penalizes new players with no knowledge of how the game was played using 2014 rules.
No, the combatant is surprised by combat starting. That implies combat has already started. Ergo, you roll initiative after combat starts, not before.
If you're unaware combat is about to start, you can't be surprised by it starting yet, because it hasn't started for you to be surprised by it. No Schroedinger's combats.
Now, combat starting can be someone visibly drawing a sword or noticeably beginning to cast a spell which you believe is hostile, in which case no attack has happened yet, but everyone is aware hostilities are commencing. But if no perceptible act takes place, combat has not started yet. The first hostile perceptible act is what causes combat to start, and the point at which initiative is rolled.
Edit: Let's examine the example in the rules where the sorceror starts casting a spell because he thinks the NPC is a changeling, or however that goes. It's horribly incomplete. Arguably, casting the spell doesn't start combat on its own. I mean, he could just be casting Detect Magic or Charm Person. If casting Friends automatically starts hostilities, the spell is literally useless.
-Sorceror starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell.
-Someone thinks the sorceror means to start a fight, draws their weapon - this is where combat starts. (The person who draws their sword is not surprised. The sorceror is not surprised if he meant to start a fight. If he's just casting prestidigitation to do a card trick, for example, he's surprised and should probably have to waste his first action on prestidigitation. Everyone else is surprised.)
-What if instead someone else also starts visibly or audibly casting a spell in response to the sorceror? Well, still no combat start yet until or unless someone decides that's a hostile action. (I mean, it gets increasingly likely someone determines one of several spellcasters who just start casting a spell is initiating hostile action...).
If we slavishly followed the DMG example, when my Wizard 1, meeting her party in a tavern for the first time, started casting minor illusion to demonstrate what she does, we should have rolled initiative and I should have started combat with surprise, because I was 'casting a spell'. That's just absolute nonsense. (Real 2024 game. No one actually called for an initiative roll).
-The sorceror can of course say something to forestall someone deciding his spell is initiating combat. "I have a clever magic trick to show you. Watch carefully." Of course, if he actually casts magic missile instead of prestidigitation, anyone who expected a magic trick is going to be surprised by the spell resolving. (If this is a pre-planned signal, none of the sorceror's allies would be surprised, because the magic trick bit is the signal that combat will commence momentarily. Probably requires a deception roll by the sorceror, quite possibly with advantage if a magic trick is something which would make sense in the context of the conversation/encounter).
-What if the Sorceror uses subtle spell for an offensive spell? No one knows the sorceror is casting a spell. Combat does not start until the spell goes off and does something perceptible, because no one has any method to be aware the sorceror is casting a spell. (Literally the only way you know a spell is being cast is by seeing one or more components of a spell - that's RAW). And if the spell effect isn't visible, no combat starts at all. Subtle dominate person does not start combat, because no one knows anything happened.
This result in those rolling better Initiative being punished and those rolling lower initiative being rewarded by being able to act during Round 1.
2024 specifically made away with surprised creature effectively skipping turns in Round 1. Instead, the rules clearly state that initiative set order in which they act during each round, where each participant takes a turn.
It doesn't say the combatant is surprised by combat started but By combat starting. You roll initiative at the beginning of combat.
Then steps of combat don't have people acting before Initiative is rolled, but after it when they take turn.
The game no longer have people taking more actions than others during combat. The new SRD 5.2.1 has a conversion guide from SRD 5.1 to SRD 5.2.1 for creators looking to update their materials SRD v5.2.1 - System Reference Document - D&D Beyond where they clearly mention the effect;
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
I disagree that it's penalizing them for rolling well on initiative. It's penalizing them for not rolling well enough on perception (and possibly stealth as well).
In this situation, the defending side has failed to roll well enough to perceive the attacker. If I was a DM running this situation in-game, sure I could give them turns because they rolled high on initiative. However, unless I'm okay with blatant metagaming, I couldn't actually allow them to do anything but continue with whatever they were already doing before the call for initiative. That is because as far as the characters know, no hostile action has happened yet.
Let me ask... what problem with the current rules do you actually have that skipping turns is the solution to? Is it that you think being ambushed* should always be able to get the jump on a party or vise versa? Is it that you think being able to act before the thing ambushing you can is awkward and unworkable?
*specifically by an invisible/hidden ambusher and not someone just charging out from the woods? I think people should more clearly define what they think would cause someone to actually be "surprised" by combat starting...)
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
What's penalizing you for not rolling well enough on perception is failing to spot hidden foe causing them to still be Invisible and have Advantage to Initiative while you have Disadvantage to Initiative.
If on top during Round 1 you are deprived from the ability to act because you rolled higher Initiative, it is more punishing than those rolling lower and able to act.
Awkward and unworkable. I laid out my reasoning in my last post. What am I supposed to do if a character gets a turn in initiative but nothing has happened to make them aware of either combat starting or even the presence of a hostile creature? What can that character do on their turn which isn't using out-of-character knowledge?
For the Wizard, if the character has reason to distrust the caster and think they might be acting in a hostile manner, I would say A - roll initiative immediately. That is, given only those three actions to choose from. If possible, I might go with option D - tell the Wizard to cease casting immediately or they will be considered hostile.
For the Sorcerer, the correct choice is option C. No one is aware that a spell is being cast until it happens, so it can't trigger Initiative.
There's no dispute when combat starts. Combat starts when the DM say so as written in PHB/DMG.
Someone casting a spell may start combat or not depending on the situation and the DM decision.
That answer is useless for this question, because it just means there is no rule and the DM can decide whatever they want.
My interpretation makes the spells as written actually work. Your interpretation makes Friends literally unuseable (casting friends starts combat, so the save is automatically successful), and makes the text of spells like Charm Person redundant when they say "It does so with Advantage if you or your allies are fighting it," because you're always fighting it if you're casting a spell, so they'd always have advantage. After all, the other creatures don't know what spell you're casting. From their perspective, Friends and Fireball are indistinguishable until the spell resolves.
As such, while the rules say the DM decides, elsewhere the rules pretty strongly imply that the consequences of actions, not the initiation of actions, is what the DM should rely on for making that decision. ie, Casting a spell must only start combat if the result of the spell is obviously hostile.
And at that point, the mere presence of an undetected invisible creature cannot start combat. The intention to attack by that undetected invisible creature cannot start combat, because the potential targets have no idea of its intentions. It is only the attack itself which can start combat. Otherwise the undetected invisible creature can literally just walk away, and now you've rolled initiative for what, exactly? Where was the combat? It never started. Ergo, you rolled initiative too soon.
I like up2ng's take on it: Narrate.
The top of the order (before ambushers) is able to react to whatever is about to happen because they are just that much faster with their reflexes. If that means they take the dodge action, or ready a sword swing, or blow up the room, then so be it. Again, the ambusher is—supposedly—attacking in those same 6 seconds, so play into that.
As the attack suddenly becomes visible, the PC who chose dodge was able to duck out of the way (or not, if the ambusher targeted another character).
As the attack suddenly becomes visible, he gets stuck in the gut by the godly reflexes of the rogue (or not, because the attacker wasn't within range).
As the attack becomes suddenly visible, the room explodes as the double 20 rolled by the wizard for initiative resulted in a fireball (or they ended up killing the tied up price they didn't spot and the attacker was actually 80 ft away with a xbow and shoots the wizard anyway).
Some of the quasi 5.24e rules proposed in this thread are even more awkward because it incentivizes the ambusher to roll low (i.e. they don't want advantage) so the party wastes their turn "doing nothing while waiting for combat to 'actually' start", effectively giving the "surprise round" that was supposed to be done away with.
Sorry, I tried to cover that with 'no one immediately declares a hostile response'. ie, the mere act of spellcasting wasn't enough to get them to draw swords or whatever.
I'm unconvinced by D. A round takes 6 seconds. You can cast at least one spell (potentially 3 with a bonus action and a reaction) and move your speed during that time. A 1 action spell takes 1-2 seconds. By the time you demand they stop casting, the spell is already cast. I don't think people appreciate just how fast spellcasting is in DnD post 2e. (In 2e and earlier, rounds lasted a full minute). Regardless, if it actually works, D probably also counts as a (conditionally) hostile response.
Allowing D also makes Friends unusable (and pretty much makes Charm Person unusable).
That's a problem the DM can easily solve by not metagaming the ambusher's turn. They were going to attack, so they will attack. This is true for my pervious post as well. If I had decided that the ambusher was going to attack the fighter to start combat, and the fighter rolled really well for initiative and chose the dodge action, I'm not going to then change targets with that knowledge.
Being surprised by combat and initiating an ambush are not the same thing.
Generically speaking, an ambush is always premediated and planned. The location and the readiness of the ambusher occurs before those that are "victims" are anywhere near the area.
The example of a sorcerer /NPC drawing a sword/etc. are good examples of surprise.
The Orc that prepares himself, receives buff spells to make him more stealthy and goes to a location that maximizes his ability to hit and minimizes the return fire would be an ambush. Passive Perception is a great way to simulate rolled initiative. If the victims have a high enough Passive Perception, they can get out of the ambush. The ambush will trigger the initiative. That is why you can roll after the ambushers fire.
Are both victims surprised, probably. But why they are surprised is the difference. The two should not be considered under the same scenario and rules or examples.
For the above reasons, combat should be declared after an ambush is initiated. That allows the faster reflex characters to go before the ambushers, it allows the ambushers who have pre-turn knowledge of this combat to act accordingly.
I can't think for the life of me how an ambush with 2014 rules turns a well planned and executed ambush into a cluster.
Most of the time a DM have combat starts following intention to attack.
The rules say what being Invisible or surprised cause when rolling Initiative.
Except he's not locked into his attack. If he sees all the PCs start suddenly reacting as if they were in combat, he probably figures he's been spotted, and withdrawing rather than fighting makes a lot of sense. He can tell he lost the element of surprise. It's not metagaming. The party is metagaming.
If I was a player in a scouting role (so my party wasn't committed), and I had the opportunity to take out a sentry by surprise, but the sentry starts calling for his buddies because he beat me on initiative, I'd just sneak away too. Sneaking away and letting him be the boy who cried wolf is absolutely the right call.