You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
There is no dispute at all. All PHB's from Basic through 2024 roll initiative at the start of combat and take their actions. In fact, one party could attempt to parley especially if both sides are surprised. In the case of an Invisible and Hidden enemy (although I am sure why they would need to be also hidden?), in 2024 they roll with advantage. And sure the creature can take the ready action that only the DM decides is the trigger.
Most of the time a DM have combat starts following intention to attack.
The rules say what being Invisible or surprised cause when rolling Initiative.
Not true in my experience. 2024 game. I'm playing a stealthy character doing the scouting. Find a lair of Troglodytes. Go back, communicate to the party. We set up a plan. I sneak back to the entrance to the lair. They have zero idea I'm there. I declare a hostile action (firing a crossbow). The DM thinks about it. The surprise rules don't make any sense at the moment I declare the attack. He ends up giving me a 3.5 surprise round (1 action only, firing the crossbow), it's literally the only thing that makes any sense. I fire my crossbow, hit, and roll damage. Then we rolled initiative. (I proceed to roll the highest initiative even without advantage, since I'm no longer hidden, and take off back to the prepared ground my party has set up down the cave passage, the Troglodytes in belated pursuit). That was a con game, btw, theoretically using the RAW.
I could give more examples. I have never seen the 2024 surprise rules used for ambushes as you interpret them, because they never make sense that way. So to say 'most DMs' do it that way is patently untrue.
I also wonder when the intention attaches. Is it when I aimed the crossbow? When I put my finger on the trigger? When I squeezed the trigger? At what point does that intention become apparent to my target? An unlisted spidey-sense feature for every creature in the world is nowhere in the rulebook - you're making that up.
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
There is no dispute at all. All PHB's from Basic through 2024 roll initiative at the start of combat and take their actions. In fact, one party could attempt to parley especially if both sides are surprised. In the case of an Invisible and Hidden enemy (although I am sure why they would need to be also hidden?), in 2024 they roll with advantage. And sure the creature can take the ready action that only the DM decides is the trigger.
So Friends always fails and the target of Charm Person always has advantage on their save?
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
There is no dispute at all. All PHB's from Basic through 2024 roll initiative at the start of combat and take their actions. In fact, one party could attempt to parley especially if both sides are surprised. In the case of an Invisible and Hidden enemy (although I am sure why they would need to be also hidden?), in 2024 they roll with advantage. And sure the creature can take the ready action that only the DM decides is the trigger.
So Friends always fails and the target of Charm Person always has advantage on their save?
I don't understand what this has to do with the topic on Invisibility or Initiative. Did the topic morph from it's original intent at some point?
You're not in combat, not even at the beginning of combat, until something has perceptibly initiated hostilities. Combat does not start before a perceptible hostile action or intent (which could be as simple as the appearance of the enemy if both sides intend to fight, or a sword being drawn, or a spell being cast if the other side perceives it as hostile. But an invisible attacker or a subtle spell cannot cause combat to start until they have completed the attack or spell, and the results were perceptible.)
And you absolutely can act before combat starts. You're acting all the time. There's no physics difference 'outside combat' and 'during combat'. Anything you can do in combat, you can do outside combat. (Doing some of those things may start combat). Combat starting merely causes us to 'zoom in' and structure things.
For combat to be starting implies that something has already happened which is starting combat. You can't act before the initiating event, because there is no combat until the initiating event. Combat is not yet starting. No Schroedinger's combat.
The steps of combat don't have people acting before initiative because that is only after combat has started. Anything you do before combat that will cause combat to start is, by definition, not yet during combat, because it is the consequence of the action which will cause combat to start.
You're in combat at the beginning of combat. The Order of Combat lists the Combat Step by Step. If the rules allowed to attack and cast spells before Initiative at the beginning of combat, they would say so. Instead, the DMG even say the opposite.
Being Invisible or surprised doesn't result in having more or less ability to act, no free attack or turn skipped. All it does is affect Initiative;
Being surprised at the start of a combat causes a creature to have Disadvantage on the Initiative roll.
Being Invisible when you roll Initiative causes a creature to have Advantage on the the Initiative roll.
Anything else is beyond the guidelines found the rules of PHB/DMG.
This is a dispute about when combat starts. Neither the PHB nor DMG resolve that issue at all.
I argue that combat can only start after some sort of initiating event. It doesn't make sense to say 'combat is starting' before anybody on one side is aware anything is happening, because combat is patently not starting yet. (Perception and Insight cover whether you're aware anything is happening, not initiative).
But, question for you: A wizard starts visibly and/or audibly casting a spell. When does combat start? Assume no one immediately declares a hostile response (before initiative is rolled). Choose one:
A--Combat always starts immediately, roll initiative.
B--Combat always starts after the spell resolves, roll initiative then.
C--Combat might start after the spell resolves. Roll initiative then if and only if the spell should cause combat to start.
Same choices, but with a sorceror using subtle spell?
There is no dispute at all. All PHB's from Basic through 2024 roll initiative at the start of combat and take their actions. In fact, one party could attempt to parley especially if both sides are surprised. In the case of an Invisible and Hidden enemy (although I am sure why they would need to be also hidden?), in 2024 they roll with advantage. And sure the creature can take the ready action that only the DM decides is the trigger.
So Friends always fails and the target of Charm Person always has advantage on their save?
I don't understand what this has to do with the topic on Invisibility or Initiative. Did the topic morph from it's original intent at some point?
The same method has to govern all cases. If the result is what actually starts combat, combat can't start before the result happens.
If you have no idea the invisible guy with the knife is there, only the knife entering your back can start combat.
You responded to a post specifically about casting a spell and whether combat started, and your answer seems to imply that even a sorceror casting a subtle spell would start combat the moment he began casting. You said there was no dispute on when combat started, and yet your answer assumes a particular idea of when combat starts that I submit does not make sense considering the entirety of the rules.
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
It's always been part of the core rules. I cast firebolt at the door. I've made an attack before initiative - in fact, initiative will never be rolled. The door is not a combatant and does not take actions.
I fire an arrow at an archery target. I've made an attack and combat never even starts.
100% RAW, attacks don't have to be after combat starts.
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
It's always been part of the core rules. I cast firebolt at the door. I've made an attack before initiative - in fact, initiative will never be rolled. The door is not a combatant and does not take actions.
I fire an arrow at an archery target. I've made an attack and combat never even starts.
100% RAW, attacks don't have to be after combat starts.
Those aren't circumstances where the DM would likely decides it start combat.
When it comes to creature vs creature though, the Devs have spoke on Twitter, SAC and in Sage Advice: Dragontalk podcast such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS9efeyCHTc
Does surprise happen outside the initiative order as a special surprise round?
The first step of any combat is this: the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (reread “Combat Step by Step” in the Player’s Handbook). This determination happens only once during a fight and only at the beginning. In other words, once a fight starts, you can’t be surprised again, although a hidden foe can still gain the normal benefits from being unseen (see “Unseen Attackers and Targets” in the Player’s Handbook).
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren’t surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
If anyone is surprised, no actions are taken yet. First, initiative is rolled as normal. Then, the first round of combat starts, and the unsurprised combatants act in initiative order. A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight. Once that turn ends, the creature is no longer surprised.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first round of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
It's always been part of the core rules. I cast firebolt at the door. I've made an attack before initiative - in fact, initiative will never be rolled. The door is not a combatant and does not take actions.
I fire an arrow at an archery target. I've made an attack and combat never even starts.
100% RAW, attacks don't have to be after combat starts.
Those aren't circumstances where the DM would likely decides it start combat.
When it comes to creature vs creature though, the Devs have spoke on Twitter and in Sage Advice: Dragontalk podcast such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS9efeyCHTc
Back in 2019 way before the surprise rules changed (and thus the intention changed). Useless. That was back when surprise made you do nothing on your turn (and what they're saying makes more sense in that context). It doesn't make any sense in the context of 2024. And indeed, a significant portion of the discussion is completely inapplicable to 2024 rules. (ie, when you can and can't take a reaction is totally different).
Besides that, Jeremy Crawford is wrong. It's not "intent" that triggers initiative in the 'draw a dagger on the devil impersonating the duke' scenario, it's drawing the dagger. That's a visible indication violence is about to commence. (I would still personally allow a stealth check to secretly draw the dagger, at which point the attack itself would be the initiating act, and the cause for initiative, and thus would still allow an attack before initiative is rolled. Failing the stealth check against perception of those around him would be what triggers the narrative reason why their attempt to stab the Duke by surprise failed, not the initiative roll). It totally makes sense that a person visibly drawing a dagger could be slower to follow through on his intention than other characters in the battle, because those other characters witnessed his action (drawing the dagger). It wouldn't make sense if they were undetected and invisible.
I also don't agree with Crawford on what the excitement of D+D is. I started back in 1st/2nd. The excitement is out-thinking the dungeon/etc... and staying alive. It's not uncertainty. Indeed, successful adventurers are hedging against uncertainty at every opportunity.
But I agree with him when he talks about paying attention to what his players' fantasies are (my words, but it's what he's talking about when he says he wants to be aware of their characters). And the stealthy fantasy is attacking unobserved from the shadows. They shouldn't necessarily get to do it every encounter, but the foil is they got detected, not that they lost initiative. (And the DM should include the occasional monster that can access that foil, and some monsters that are unlikely to access that foil, so they can play their fantasy some of the time, and maybe access it more often if they're clever about it). Leaving the fantasy up to whether they can win initiative even in the most favorable circumstance is... beyond lame. I would feel robbed as a player. And I would be a bad DM if I inflicted that on my player.
Substitute 'a sorceror subtly casting a spell' into their discussion instead of the rogue drawing a dagger, and their entire discussion suddenly makes no sense.
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
Surprise [Revised Rule] Being surprised no longer deprives you of the ability to act on your first turn of combat. Instead, being surprised causes you to have Disadvantage on your Initiative roll.
It's always been part of the core rules. I cast firebolt at the door. I've made an attack before initiative - in fact, initiative will never be rolled. The door is not a combatant and does not take actions.
I fire an arrow at an archery target. I've made an attack and combat never even starts.
100% RAW, attacks don't have to be after combat starts.
Those aren't circumstances where the DM would likely decides it start combat.
What does that have to do with the price of milk? If you can make attacks outside of combat, you can make attacks before combat starts, because its outside of combat.
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There is no dispute at all. All PHB's from Basic through 2024 roll initiative at the start of combat and take their actions. In fact, one party could attempt to parley especially if both sides are surprised. In the case of an Invisible and Hidden enemy (although I am sure why they would need to be also hidden?), in 2024 they roll with advantage. And sure the creature can take the ready action that only the DM decides is the trigger.
Not true in my experience. 2024 game. I'm playing a stealthy character doing the scouting. Find a lair of Troglodytes. Go back, communicate to the party. We set up a plan. I sneak back to the entrance to the lair. They have zero idea I'm there. I declare a hostile action (firing a crossbow). The DM thinks about it. The surprise rules don't make any sense at the moment I declare the attack. He ends up giving me a 3.5 surprise round (1 action only, firing the crossbow), it's literally the only thing that makes any sense. I fire my crossbow, hit, and roll damage. Then we rolled initiative. (I proceed to roll the highest initiative even without advantage, since I'm no longer hidden, and take off back to the prepared ground my party has set up down the cave passage, the Troglodytes in belated pursuit). That was a con game, btw, theoretically using the RAW.
I could give more examples. I have never seen the 2024 surprise rules used for ambushes as you interpret them, because they never make sense that way. So to say 'most DMs' do it that way is patently untrue.
I also wonder when the intention attaches. Is it when I aimed the crossbow? When I put my finger on the trigger? When I squeezed the trigger? At what point does that intention become apparent to my target? An unlisted spidey-sense feature for every creature in the world is nowhere in the rulebook - you're making that up.
So Friends always fails and the target of Charm Person always has advantage on their save?
The ability to attack before Initiative has never been part of 5E core rules so the 5E24 revision didn't add or modify it.
Only the surprised rules were revised as explained in the SRD.
I don't understand what this has to do with the topic on Invisibility or Initiative. Did the topic morph from it's original intent at some point?
The same method has to govern all cases. If the result is what actually starts combat, combat can't start before the result happens.
If you have no idea the invisible guy with the knife is there, only the knife entering your back can start combat.
You responded to a post specifically about casting a spell and whether combat started, and your answer seems to imply that even a sorceror casting a subtle spell would start combat the moment he began casting. You said there was no dispute on when combat started, and yet your answer assumes a particular idea of when combat starts that I submit does not make sense considering the entirety of the rules.
It's always been part of the core rules. I cast firebolt at the door. I've made an attack before initiative - in fact, initiative will never be rolled. The door is not a combatant and does not take actions.
I fire an arrow at an archery target. I've made an attack and combat never even starts.
100% RAW, attacks don't have to be after combat starts.
Those aren't circumstances where the DM would likely decides it start combat.
When it comes to creature vs creature though, the Devs have spoke on Twitter, SAC and in Sage Advice: Dragontalk podcast such as this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS9efeyCHTc
Back in 2019 way before the surprise rules changed (and thus the intention changed). Useless. That was back when surprise made you do nothing on your turn (and what they're saying makes more sense in that context). It doesn't make any sense in the context of 2024. And indeed, a significant portion of the discussion is completely inapplicable to 2024 rules. (ie, when you can and can't take a reaction is totally different).
Besides that, Jeremy Crawford is wrong. It's not "intent" that triggers initiative in the 'draw a dagger on the devil impersonating the duke' scenario, it's drawing the dagger. That's a visible indication violence is about to commence. (I would still personally allow a stealth check to secretly draw the dagger, at which point the attack itself would be the initiating act, and the cause for initiative, and thus would still allow an attack before initiative is rolled. Failing the stealth check against perception of those around him would be what triggers the narrative reason why their attempt to stab the Duke by surprise failed, not the initiative roll). It totally makes sense that a person visibly drawing a dagger could be slower to follow through on his intention than other characters in the battle, because those other characters witnessed his action (drawing the dagger). It wouldn't make sense if they were undetected and invisible.
I also don't agree with Crawford on what the excitement of D+D is. I started back in 1st/2nd. The excitement is out-thinking the dungeon/etc... and staying alive. It's not uncertainty. Indeed, successful adventurers are hedging against uncertainty at every opportunity.
But I agree with him when he talks about paying attention to what his players' fantasies are (my words, but it's what he's talking about when he says he wants to be aware of their characters). And the stealthy fantasy is attacking unobserved from the shadows. They shouldn't necessarily get to do it every encounter, but the foil is they got detected, not that they lost initiative. (And the DM should include the occasional monster that can access that foil, and some monsters that are unlikely to access that foil, so they can play their fantasy some of the time, and maybe access it more often if they're clever about it). Leaving the fantasy up to whether they can win initiative even in the most favorable circumstance is... beyond lame. I would feel robbed as a player. And I would be a bad DM if I inflicted that on my player.
Substitute 'a sorceror subtly casting a spell' into their discussion instead of the rogue drawing a dagger, and their entire discussion suddenly makes no sense.
The 5E Surprise rules never change since 2014, they never received any errata or anything.
Really? So surprised creatures must still take no actions on their first turn, and can't use a reaction before their first turn?
What does that have to do with the price of milk? If you can make attacks outside of combat, you can make attacks before combat starts, because its outside of combat.