With Eberron: Forge of the Artificer, the various basic Dragonmark feats add spells to your classes' spell list. You can see an example with Mark of Storm in the D&D Beyond Article. This isn't a big deal on its own. However, if you take Potent Dragonmark, you now also always have those spells prepared and gain a free spell slot to cast them.
Does the fact that the earlier Dragonmark feat associated the spells with classes also associate the spell preparation with a class? What are your thoughts on RAW and RAI?
What would this matter for? I'm not sure what you're actually asking here.
They're definitely class spells (for all your spellcasting classes). You have them prepared. You can cast them with your spell slots. Consider this text from the sorceror spellcasting feature (similar text is in other spellcasting features): "If another Sorcerer feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Sorcerer spells for you."
So, those spells don't become prepared as sorceror spells (because they're explicitly not - they don't count against your spells prepared as a sorceror), but they count as Sorceror Spells for you (ie, are added to your spell list). Would anyone treat those spells differently than spells prepared as a sorceror for any reason? Afaict, all 'prepared as a sorceror' means is they eat up one of your spell choices from the base class, with no further mechanical effect.
What spell slot is used to cast them doesn't seem relevant at all.
(FWIW, I'm not seeing Potent Dragonmark at your link at all, just Greater Dragonmark, and that doesn't prepare the spells).
They're definitely class spells (for all your spellcasting classes). You have them prepared. You can cast them with your spell slots. Consider this text from the sorceror spellcasting feature (similar text is in other spellcasting features): "If another Sorcerer feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Sorcerer spells for you."
This is not a Sorcerer feature. It's a feat. So, in your example, do they count as Sorcerer spells? Can you use Metamagic with them? Can you use an Arcane Focus? Can they trigger Wild Magic for a Wild Magic Sorcerer?
If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
Do you think the RAI answer is different than RAW?
- The Mark of Storm feat lets you prepare the spells listed in the Mark of Storm Spells table. You still need to prepare them using your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
- The Potent Dragonmark feat says "You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared", but they're prepared through the feat, not through your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
They're definitely class spells (for all your spellcasting classes). You have them prepared. You can cast them with your spell slots. Consider this text from the sorceror spellcasting feature (similar text is in other spellcasting features): "If another Sorcerer feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Sorcerer spells for you."
This is not a Sorcerer feature. It's a feat. So, in your example, do they count as Sorcerer spells? Can you use Metamagic with them? Can you use an Arcane Focus? Can they trigger Wild Magic for a Wild Magic Sorcerer?
If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
Do you think the RAI answer is different than RAW?
You still haven't answered my question - what does 'prepared as a sorceror spell' mean besides it used one of your limited prepared spell slots from sorceror.
And you missed the point of my comparison. I'm drawing an analogy here to spells you get from a subclass feature. Those spells are also not prepared as sorceror spells (explicitly). But they are added to your sorceror spell list (explicitly). RAW, they are identical to Dragonmark/Potent DM - added to your class spell list, automatically prepared, and not prepared as per your class spellcasting feature.
RAI and RAW are the same. They aren't prepared as sorceror spells, but that doesn't matter for anything. They are sorceror spells, so whenever something asks if it was a sorceror spell, the answer is yes.
- The Potent Dragonmark feat says "You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared", but they're prepared through the feat, not through your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
What does this matter for anything? (Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class).
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
[...] If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
The answer is none.
They count as prepared for none of them (because they don't use up your limited preparation slots). But they count as class spells for all of them. That latter thing is what actually matters.
(In this case, a feature does say otherwise - the dragonmark says they're on your spell list).
Compare with spells a class feature grants you, which are not prepared as class spells (explicitly - they don't use your limited preparation slots), but they are added to you class spell list. I quoted the sorceror text above. They function RAW identically to Dragonmark adding the spells to your class list, and potent DM automatically preparing them.
- The Potent Dragonmark feat says "You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared", but they're prepared through the feat, not through your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
What does this matter for anything? (Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class).
Because the feat also gives you a spell slot to "cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat".
And because of what you said: "Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class".
That's part of Smite's question, if I'm understanding it right.
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
[...] If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
The answer is none.
They count as prepared for none of them (because they don't use up your limited preparation slots). But they count as class spells for all of them. That latter thing is what actually matters.
(In this case, a feature does say otherwise - the dragonmark says they're on your spell list).
Compare with spells a class feature grants you, which are not prepared as class spells (explicitly - they don't use your limited preparation slots), but they are added to you class spell list. I quoted the sorceror text above. They function RAW identically to Dragonmark adding the spells to your class list, and potent DM automatically preparing them.
I'm not following you. What's the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying?
- The Potent Dragonmark feat says "You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared", but they're prepared through the feat, not through your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
What does this matter for anything? (Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class).
Because the feat also gives you a spell slot to "cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat".
And because of what you said: "Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class".
That's part of Smite's question, if I'm understanding it right.
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
[...] If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
The answer is none.
They count as prepared for none of them (because they don't use up your limited preparation slots). But they count as class spells for all of them. That latter thing is what actually matters.
(In this case, a feature does say otherwise - the dragonmark says they're on your spell list).
Compare with spells a class feature grants you, which are not prepared as class spells (explicitly - they don't use your limited preparation slots), but they are added to you class spell list. I quoted the sorceror text above. They function RAW identically to Dragonmark adding the spells to your class list, and potent DM automatically preparing them.
I'm not following you. What's the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying?
I don't know, why does it matter if you prepared a spell as, say, a sorceror? Like, mechanically, besides not using a limited sorceror prepared spell choice, does that mean anything?
This whole conversation is surreal, because without some rule implication that actually matters, I can't tell if we agree or disagree on what we're talking about.
(And sorry, i didn't mean Spell Slots when i said prepared spell slots. I meant the number of spells the class can prepare, which has nothing to do with Spell Slots. ie, a 4th level sorceror has 7 prepared spells. Automatically prepared spells from any source can use whatever slots from casting classes you have, obviously).
Under the 2024 rules, while it's true that prepared spells from any source can usually use your spell slots, you still need a way to actually cast them. That means using the feat rules or your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature. This matters because it tells you which spellcasting ability you're using.
For example:
Shadow Magic. [...]. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Or for a Sorcerer:
Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells.
So, yes, it matters how you're preparing each spell and which source it's coming from (e.g., traits/features/feats).
Prepared spells are also important in the Multiclassing rules:
Spells Prepared.You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Under the 2024 rules, while it's true that prepared spells from any source can usually use your spell slots, you still need a way to actually cast them. That means using the feat rules or your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature. This matters because it tells you which spellcasting ability you're using.
For example:
Shadow Magic. [...]. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Or for a Sorcerer:
Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells.
So, yes, it matters how you're preparing each spell and which source it's coming from (e.g., traits/features/feats).
Prepared spells are also important in the Multiclassing rules:
Spells Prepared.You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Now we're getting somewhere. I disagree with your interpretation.
Boilerplate on what attribute you use (here's the sorceror version): "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells." It doesn't care if they were prepared as sorceror spells. It just cares that they are sorceror spells. Since Dragonmark made them part of your class spell list, they are Sorceror spells, and thus use charisma as their casting attribute.
Remember, a Sorceror Spell is a spell on the sorceror class list, not just a spell you prepared as a sorceror.
Note that Shadowmagic overrides this general rule (specific > general). It tells you what the spellcasting attribute is. You use that instead of any other feature that might govern the spell.
Which brings us to multiclassing, where context matters here. None of that text applies to dragonmark spells, because the framing clause for that entire passage is "You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually". So this only applies to spells you prepare for a class. (ie, the last sentence should be read as "Each spell you prepare for a class is associated with that class,...", because its only talking about spells prepared for a class individually). As Dragonmark spells with Potent DM are not prepared for a class, that text doesn't apply. (And technically neither do spells you automatically prepare from class features, because they aren't prepared as a member of that class).
RAI, since Dragonmark adds the spells to all your class lists, and potent DM prepares them all, you choose when you cast it which spellcasting attribute you use for those spells (of your available spellcasting features). RAW is unclear here. (Technically, since its on your sorceror list and your cleric list, if you were a sorceror-cleric, you'd use cha and wis, but it doesn't alter the formulae for making an attack or determining a save dc, and it never tells you to add them together, so it just fails to compute).
Interesting sidenote: Because spells added to your class list by a class feature are not prepared as per that class, but instead automatically prepared (just like DM spells) and added to your class list, they should function similarly to Potent DM spells. ie, a Sorceror-Cleric who automatically prepares and adds Cleric spells to their Sorceror list should be able to cast those spells with either Wis or Cha, their choice. Because they are not prepared as sorceror spells (they didn't take up a spells prepared choice), and they are on both the sorceror and cleric spell lists. (Conversely, a Divine Soul Sorceror-Cleric, when he adds cleric spells to his list and can choose and prepare cleric spells, still must prepare those spells so chosen as a Sorceror, because they are prepared as Sorceror spells).
Further interesting sidenote: If you were a Sorceror 5/Cleric 4 with Potent DM, you could cast your level 5 DM spell with your level 5 slot, because you always prepare it and you have a slot you can cast it with. (Technically, you have it prepared even before you have a level 5 slot, you just have no way to cast it because you lack the slot).
Under the 2024 rules, while it's true that prepared spells from any source can usually use your spell slots, you still need a way to actually cast them. That means using the feat rules or your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature. This matters because it tells you which spellcasting ability you're using.
For example:
Shadow Magic. [...]. You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level. The spells’ spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
Or for a Sorcerer:
Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells.
So, yes, it matters how you're preparing each spell and which source it's coming from (e.g., traits/features/feats).
Prepared spells are also important in the Multiclassing rules:
Spells Prepared.You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
[...] Which brings us to multiclassing, where context matters here. None of that text applies to dragonmark spells, because the framing clause for that entire passage is "You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually". So this only applies to spells you prepare for a class. (ie, the last sentence should be read as "Each spell you prepare for a class is associated with that class,...", because its only talking about spells prepared for a class individually). As Dragonmark spells with Potent DM are not prepared for a class, that text doesn't apply. (And technically neither do spells you automatically prepare from class features, because they aren't prepared as a member of that class).
I quoted the Multiclassing rules because you asked "why does it matter if you prepared a spell as, say, a sorceror?". But I agree in this conversation it doesn't help.
"Dragonmark spells with Potent DM are not prepared for a class" is what I'm saying.
RAI, since Dragonmark adds the spells to all your class lists, and potent DM prepares them all, you choose when you cast it which spellcasting attribute you use for those spells (of your available spellcasting features). RAW is unclear here. (Technically, since its on your sorceror list and your cleric list, if you were a sorceror-cleric, you'd use cha and wis, but it doesn't alter the formulae for making an attack or determining a save dc, and it never tells you to add them together, so it just fails to compute).
Likewise Magic Initiate or Shadow Touched, Potent Dragonmark gives you a specific rule, Dragonmark Spellcasting:
- You have one extra spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat. - You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat.
So:
- If you use the extra spell slot for your Dragonmark feat spells, then you use the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature you used to prepare the spell, and its Spellcasting Ability. - If you use the extra spell slot for your Dragonmark Preparation benefit, then I agree with your RAI explanation.
Well, the Multiclassing rules are often quoted because the Sage Advice entry. Now, technically, you can argue that this only applies to multiclass characters and not single class characters. However, I think that technicality and the Sage Advice ruling are both nonsense.
A Wizard multiclasses into a Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Sorcery subclass. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the Sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from Sorcerer to trigger?
Your spellcasting can unleash surges of untamed magic. Once per turn, you can roll 1d20 immediately after you cast a Sorcerer spell with a spell slot. If you roll a 20, roll on the Wild Magic Surge table to create a magical effect.
So, this ruling says that you have to prepare the spell as a Sorcerer for it to be a "Sorcerer spell".
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
This is all from the 2024 Sage Advice and Errata.
Now back to the thread at hand. Using the Sage Advice example. If you are a single class Sorcerer, can casting Shatter prepared via Mark of the Storm with a spell slot trigger a Wild Magic Surge? Can you use an Arcane focus with it? "Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Sorcerer spells."
There is a nuance that I failed to mention (sorry!) regarding Mark of ______ and Potent Dragonmark that has additional impact on the conversation.
Spells of the Mark are only added to your class spell list(s) if you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
Potent Dragonmark causes those spells to always be prepared. However, you only have Spells of the Mark if you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature. A level 20 Champion Fighter gains minimal benefit from the Potent Dragonmark feat.
Potent Dragonmark's spell slot is an extra spell slot with the restriction that it can only be used to cast spells from your Dragonmark feats.
In my opinion, unlike Magic Initiate, Potent Dragonmark and Spells of the Mark modify your class's spellcasting or pact magic feature. Now, whether these are considered "Prepared as a class spell" or eligible for using the class's spellcasting focus, I am not sure about the RAW and RAI.
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
[...] If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
The answer is none.
However, the spells prepared via Potent Dragonmark will always be on the Sorcerer spell list if you are a Sorcerer (any spells that are not on the Sorcerer list normally are added by the initial Mark feat, see Spells of the Mark for Mark of Storm) and therefore be Sorcerer spells by that particular Sage Advice entry.
The SAC multiclass ruling is simply wrong by inspection.
--Wild Magic only requires you cast a sorceror spell with a spell slot. Nothing about 'preparing the spell' in any way.
--The only thing the "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes..." rule does is tell you that you have to cast spells you chose as prepared spells for a sorceror have to be cast with charisma, and those you chose as prepared spells for a cleric have to be cast with wisdom, even if the spell is on both classes' spell list. It doesn't change what lists those spells are on. (And if you cast a sorceror spell as a cleric with a spell slot, it's still a sorceror spell cast with a slot, and still triggers wild magic.)
SAC also directly contradicts the other SAC about what it means to be a sorceror spell (or etc...). That other SAC is right.
Bottom line, the multiclass SAC "ruling" is plainly in error and should be ignored. The other SAC is 100% right (and is just restating what the rules already say). Both of them cannot be right at the same time, and the choice is obvious.
(And if something adds a spell to your spell list generally, it adds it to all your spell lists. So if you were a Wiz/Bard/Cleric/Sorceror/Druid/Paladin/Ranger, the Dragonmark would add its spells to all those spell lists).
General rule of thumb: how you prepare the spell is irrelevant 99% of the time (the multiclass rule which governs which spellcasting attribute you must use is the only time how you prepare a spell matters). All features I'm aware of ask if you cast a spell on a spell list, possibly using a spell slot. So how it's prepared is mechanically irrelevant 99% of the time. (And since Dragonmark spells are not prepared via a spellcasting feature, you can cast them as any of your spellcasting classes with Potent Dragonmark, because its on all your lists).
Spells of the Mark: If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, the spells of the Mark of the "X" Spells table are added to that feature's spell list.
That means that they are in fact Spells for that class.
[...]General rule of thumb: how you prepare the spell is irrelevant 99% of the time (the multiclass rule which governs which spellcasting attribute you must use is the only time how you prepare a spell matters). All features I'm aware of ask if you cast a spell on a spell list, possibly using a spell slot. So how it's prepared is mechanically irrelevant 99% of the time. (And since Dragonmark spells are not prepared via a spellcasting feature, you can cast them as any of your spellcasting classes with Potent Dragonmark, because its on all your lists).
How would you rule the next case?
- You're a Wizard.
- You have have Ray of Sickness prepared thanks to the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat. You choose Charisma for your spellcasting ability.
You cast Ray of Sickness with or without using a spell slot, which Spellcasting Ability do you use? If it's always CHA, then how you prepare the spell matters. If not, then no :)
[...] If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
The answer is none.
However, the spells prepared via Potent Dragonmark will always be on the Sorcerer spell list if you are a Sorcerer (any spells that are not on the Sorcerer list normally are added by the initial Mark feat, see Spells of the Mark for Mark of Storm) and therefore be Sorcerer spells by that particular Sage Advice entry.
I agree, but IMO that doesn't mean they count as "always prepared for all classes at the same time", just that they are now "spells available to prepare for all those classes".
They are simply prepared... to be cast using some method. Let me combine both feats (thanks Lia for your text):
Spells of the Mark: If you have the Spellcasting or Pact Magic class feature, the spells of the Mark of the "X" Spells table are added to that feature's spell list.
Dragonmark Stuff Combined: You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list prepared --- (NOTE: unlike other feats, here we don't have "You can also cast these spells using spell slots you have of the appropriate level") --- You have one extra spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat. The spell slot’s level is half your level (round up), to a maximum of level 5. You regain the expended slot when you finish a Short or Long Rest. You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat (case A) or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat (case B).
So if you use that extra spell slot, you should follow the Dragonmark Stuff Combined rules. This means to me:
- Case A: the spellcasting ability associated to the spellcasting feature you used to prepare the spell. - Case B: if the caster has more than one spellcasting ability, (RAI?) the user chooses which one to use (text borrowed from Magic Items).
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With Eberron: Forge of the Artificer, the various basic Dragonmark feats add spells to your classes' spell list. You can see an example with Mark of Storm in the D&D Beyond Article. This isn't a big deal on its own. However, if you take Potent Dragonmark, you now also always have those spells prepared and gain a free spell slot to cast them.
Does the fact that the earlier Dragonmark feat associated the spells with classes also associate the spell preparation with a class? What are your thoughts on RAW and RAI?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
What would this matter for? I'm not sure what you're actually asking here.
They're definitely class spells (for all your spellcasting classes). You have them prepared. You can cast them with your spell slots. Consider this text from the sorceror spellcasting feature (similar text is in other spellcasting features): "If another Sorcerer feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Sorcerer spells for you."
So, those spells don't become prepared as sorceror spells (because they're explicitly not - they don't count against your spells prepared as a sorceror), but they count as Sorceror Spells for you (ie, are added to your spell list). Would anyone treat those spells differently than spells prepared as a sorceror for any reason? Afaict, all 'prepared as a sorceror' means is they eat up one of your spell choices from the base class, with no further mechanical effect.
What spell slot is used to cast them doesn't seem relevant at all.
(FWIW, I'm not seeing Potent Dragonmark at your link at all, just Greater Dragonmark, and that doesn't prepare the spells).
The link is to show a sample Dragonmark, Mark of Storm. I described what Potent Dragonmark does.
This is not a Sorcerer feature. It's a feat. So, in your example, do they count as Sorcerer spells? Can you use Metamagic with them? Can you use an Arcane Focus? Can they trigger Wild Magic for a Wild Magic Sorcerer?
If you are a multiclass character, are they counted as prepared as all classes or none?
Do you think the RAI answer is different than RAW?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Just my opinion, based on this discussion we had in the past: Feat granted spells and how they apply
- The Mark of Storm feat lets you prepare the spells listed in the Mark of Storm Spells table. You still need to prepare them using your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
- The Potent Dragonmark feat says "You always have the spells on your Spells of the Mark list (if any) prepared", but they're prepared through the feat, not through your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.
Then you add to the pot the next SAC answer to see how a specific spell from that list interacts with other game features when you cast it:
So I think, using this ruling:
The answer is none.
You still haven't answered my question - what does 'prepared as a sorceror spell' mean besides it used one of your limited prepared spell slots from sorceror.
And you missed the point of my comparison. I'm drawing an analogy here to spells you get from a subclass feature. Those spells are also not prepared as sorceror spells (explicitly). But they are added to your sorceror spell list (explicitly). RAW, they are identical to Dragonmark/Potent DM - added to your class spell list, automatically prepared, and not prepared as per your class spellcasting feature.
RAI and RAW are the same. They aren't prepared as sorceror spells, but that doesn't matter for anything. They are sorceror spells, so whenever something asks if it was a sorceror spell, the answer is yes.
What does this matter for anything? (Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class).
They count as prepared for none of them (because they don't use up your limited preparation slots). But they count as class spells for all of them. That latter thing is what actually matters.
(In this case, a feature does say otherwise - the dragonmark says they're on your spell list).
Compare with spells a class feature grants you, which are not prepared as class spells (explicitly - they don't use your limited preparation slots), but they are added to you class spell list. I quoted the sorceror text above. They function RAW identically to Dragonmark adding the spells to your class list, and potent DM automatically preparing them.
Because the feat also gives you a spell slot to "cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat".
And because of what you said: "Other than not using up your prepared spell slots for your class".
That's part of Smite's question, if I'm understanding it right.
I'm not following you. What's the difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying?
I don't know, why does it matter if you prepared a spell as, say, a sorceror? Like, mechanically, besides not using a limited sorceror prepared spell choice, does that mean anything?
This whole conversation is surreal, because without some rule implication that actually matters, I can't tell if we agree or disagree on what we're talking about.
(And sorry, i didn't mean Spell Slots when i said prepared spell slots. I meant the number of spells the class can prepare, which has nothing to do with Spell Slots. ie, a 4th level sorceror has 7 prepared spells. Automatically prepared spells from any source can use whatever slots from casting classes you have, obviously).
Under the 2024 rules, while it's true that prepared spells from any source can usually use your spell slots, you still need a way to actually cast them. That means using the feat rules or your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature. This matters because it tells you which spellcasting ability you're using.
For example:
Or for a Sorcerer:
So, yes, it matters how you're preparing each spell and which source it's coming from (e.g., traits/features/feats).
Prepared spells are also important in the Multiclassing rules:
Now we're getting somewhere. I disagree with your interpretation.
Boilerplate on what attribute you use (here's the sorceror version): "Charisma is your spellcasting ability for your Sorcerer spells." It doesn't care if they were prepared as sorceror spells. It just cares that they are sorceror spells. Since Dragonmark made them part of your class spell list, they are Sorceror spells, and thus use charisma as their casting attribute.
Remember, a Sorceror Spell is a spell on the sorceror class list, not just a spell you prepared as a sorceror.
Note that Shadowmagic overrides this general rule (specific > general). It tells you what the spellcasting attribute is. You use that instead of any other feature that might govern the spell.
Which brings us to multiclassing, where context matters here. None of that text applies to dragonmark spells, because the framing clause for that entire passage is "You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually". So this only applies to spells you prepare for a class. (ie, the last sentence should be read as "Each spell you prepare for a class is associated with that class,...", because its only talking about spells prepared for a class individually). As Dragonmark spells with Potent DM are not prepared for a class, that text doesn't apply. (And technically neither do spells you automatically prepare from class features, because they aren't prepared as a member of that class).
RAI, since Dragonmark adds the spells to all your class lists, and potent DM prepares them all, you choose when you cast it which spellcasting attribute you use for those spells (of your available spellcasting features). RAW is unclear here. (Technically, since its on your sorceror list and your cleric list, if you were a sorceror-cleric, you'd use cha and wis, but it doesn't alter the formulae for making an attack or determining a save dc, and it never tells you to add them together, so it just fails to compute).
Interesting sidenote: Because spells added to your class list by a class feature are not prepared as per that class, but instead automatically prepared (just like DM spells) and added to your class list, they should function similarly to Potent DM spells. ie, a Sorceror-Cleric who automatically prepares and adds Cleric spells to their Sorceror list should be able to cast those spells with either Wis or Cha, their choice. Because they are not prepared as sorceror spells (they didn't take up a spells prepared choice), and they are on both the sorceror and cleric spell lists. (Conversely, a Divine Soul Sorceror-Cleric, when he adds cleric spells to his list and can choose and prepare cleric spells, still must prepare those spells so chosen as a Sorceror, because they are prepared as Sorceror spells).
Further interesting sidenote: If you were a Sorceror 5/Cleric 4 with Potent DM, you could cast your level 5 DM spell with your level 5 slot, because you always prepare it and you have a slot you can cast it with. (Technically, you have it prepared even before you have a level 5 slot, you just have no way to cast it because you lack the slot).
I quoted the Multiclassing rules because you asked "why does it matter if you prepared a spell as, say, a sorceror?". But I agree in this conversation it doesn't help.
"Dragonmark spells with Potent DM are not prepared for a class" is what I'm saying.
Likewise Magic Initiate or Shadow Touched, Potent Dragonmark gives you a specific rule, Dragonmark Spellcasting:
- You have one extra spell slot to cast the spells granted by your Dragonmark feat.
- You can use this spell slot to cast only a spell you have prepared because of your Dragonmark feat or the Dragonmark Preparation benefit of this feat.
So:
- If you use the extra spell slot for your Dragonmark feat spells, then you use the Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature you used to prepare the spell, and its Spellcasting Ability.
- If you use the extra spell slot for your Dragonmark Preparation benefit, then I agree with your RAI explanation.
Okay, I think we pretty much agree in every relevant respect.
Well, the Multiclassing rules are often quoted because the Sage Advice entry. Now, technically, you can argue that this only applies to multiclass characters and not single class characters. However, I think that technicality and the Sage Advice ruling are both nonsense.
and
So, this ruling says that you have to prepare the spell as a Sorcerer for it to be a "Sorcerer spell".
This is direct conflict with this ruling:
This is all from the 2024 Sage Advice and Errata.
Now back to the thread at hand. Using the Sage Advice example. If you are a single class Sorcerer, can casting Shatter prepared via Mark of the Storm with a spell slot trigger a Wild Magic Surge? Can you use an Arcane focus with it? "Spellcasting Focus. You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Sorcerer spells."
There is a nuance that I failed to mention (sorry!) regarding Mark of ______ and Potent Dragonmark that has additional impact on the conversation.
In my opinion, unlike Magic Initiate, Potent Dragonmark and Spells of the Mark modify your class's spellcasting or pact magic feature. Now, whether these are considered "Prepared as a class spell" or eligible for using the class's spellcasting focus, I am not sure about the RAW and RAI.
Given that the Dragonmark feats are a little different than the other spells and species that grant spells, I felt it was worth revisiting the topic.
However, the spells prepared via Potent Dragonmark will always be on the Sorcerer spell list if you are a Sorcerer (any spells that are not on the Sorcerer list normally are added by the initial Mark feat, see Spells of the Mark for Mark of Storm) and therefore be Sorcerer spells by that particular Sage Advice entry.
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My houserulings.
The SAC multiclass ruling is simply wrong by inspection.
--Wild Magic only requires you cast a sorceror spell with a spell slot. Nothing about 'preparing the spell' in any way.
--The only thing the "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes..." rule does is tell you that you have to cast spells you chose as prepared spells for a sorceror have to be cast with charisma, and those you chose as prepared spells for a cleric have to be cast with wisdom, even if the spell is on both classes' spell list. It doesn't change what lists those spells are on. (And if you cast a sorceror spell as a cleric with a spell slot, it's still a sorceror spell cast with a slot, and still triggers wild magic.)
SAC also directly contradicts the other SAC about what it means to be a sorceror spell (or etc...). That other SAC is right.
Bottom line, the multiclass SAC "ruling" is plainly in error and should be ignored. The other SAC is 100% right (and is just restating what the rules already say). Both of them cannot be right at the same time, and the choice is obvious.
(And if something adds a spell to your spell list generally, it adds it to all your spell lists. So if you were a Wiz/Bard/Cleric/Sorceror/Druid/Paladin/Ranger, the Dragonmark would add its spells to all those spell lists).
General rule of thumb: how you prepare the spell is irrelevant 99% of the time (the multiclass rule which governs which spellcasting attribute you must use is the only time how you prepare a spell matters). All features I'm aware of ask if you cast a spell on a spell list, possibly using a spell slot. So how it's prepared is mechanically irrelevant 99% of the time. (And since Dragonmark spells are not prepared via a spellcasting feature, you can cast them as any of your spellcasting classes with Potent Dragonmark, because its on all your lists).
Each Dragonmark Feat has the following :
That means that they are in fact Spells for that class.
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How would you rule the next case?
- You're a Wizard.
- You have have Ray of Sickness prepared thanks to the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat. You choose Charisma for your spellcasting ability.
You cast Ray of Sickness with or without using a spell slot, which Spellcasting Ability do you use? If it's always CHA, then how you prepare the spell matters. If not, then no :)
EDIT: removed wrong text.
Of course, Paladin!
I agree, but IMO that doesn't mean they count as "always prepared for all classes at the same time", just that they are now "spells available to prepare for all those classes".
They are simply prepared... to be cast using some method. Let me combine both feats (thanks Lia for your text):
So if you use that extra spell slot, you should follow the Dragonmark Stuff Combined rules. This means to me:
- Case A: the spellcasting ability associated to the spellcasting feature you used to prepare the spell.
- Case B: if the caster has more than one spellcasting ability, (RAI?) the user chooses which one to use (text borrowed from Magic Items).