Two-Weapon Fighting with a Shield

Quote from Sunnyssundries >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.

 a) it is outright nonsense, not even physics

 

Physics is the scientific study of matter, its fundamental constituents, its motion and behavior through space and time. I thought you were arguing that sheathing a weapon should be an action because it take some time to do in real life with scabbard not having funnel. 

Rules Aren't Physics to me explain they're not designed to perfectly emulate such reality that's all. 

 See above...

My take on Quick Draw is that it increase the number of weapons you can draw or stow from 1 to 2, not the number of item interactions in itself, meaning;

• You can draw two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw only one.
• OR
• You can stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to stow only one.

Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

It effectively turn these game features into the following red strikethrough:

Utilize. You normally interact with an object while doing something else, such as when you draw a 2 sword as part of the Attack action. 

Time-Limited Object Interactions. When time is short, such as in combat, interactions with objects are limited: one free interaction per turn. That interaction must occur during a creature’s movement or action. (ex. draw or stow 1 2 wepaons)

Thrown. If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that 2 weapon as part of the attack

Attack Action. You can either equip or unequip one 2 weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.

You can see a good video from JNJ Tabletop on the topic here Can you ACTUALLY use a Shield WHILE Two Weapon Fighting? | D&D 2024 Rules Update - YouTube   

Quote from Sunnyssundries >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Rules Aren’t Physics. The rules of the game are meant to provide a fun game experience, not to describe the laws of physics in the worlds of D&D, let alone the real world.

The 5E 2024 rules make Dual Wielding in like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFo3_6dpLX0

That looks like a Fighter with 4 attacks and Action Surge to me.

Smitemakesright I think your calculations miss a crucial component. 

The first is that if you are dual wielding you are almost certainly going to have Hex/Hunters Mark/other ways to increase your damage per attack. With the two additional attacks from dual wielding that is significantly more damage than is being accounted for. 

In the game I played in my Ranger was doing nearly double the damage that the sword and shield fighter was doing. While obviously that is an unfair comparison, my point is that focusing on straight weapon damage is misleading. 

The difference in damage output becomes significantly greater with vex/hunters mark/magical weapons. 

You really don’t need fancy calculations. Someone with a sword and shield is going to do X + Y damage (where Y = number of attacks, I.e the difference between a d8 and a d6. A dual wielding character will do 2X damage (assuming you have access to fighting styles). Dual wielders will pretty much always do twice the damage. 

Also it’s important to note that 3 of the 4 attacks get Vex. Only the attack with nick lacks vex. So you should always use nick. 

Id argue that even if you determine the damage output is only slightly better you should always dual wield and use a shield over a single weapon if your dm allows for it. Because even 1 additional damage is better. 

Also while this thread is focusing on a shield you should actually dual wield with a greatsword or great axe and not a shield. 

Quote from bhthephoenix >>

The first is that if you are dual wielding you are almost certainly going to have Hex/Hunters Mark/other ways to increase your damage per attack. With the two additional attacks from dual wielding that is significantly more damage than is being accounted for. 

That is absolutely not a given, particularly for a Fighter. I considered it and since a Fighter was being used, I did not include it.

Quote from bhthephoenix >>

You really don’t need fancy calculations. Someone with a sword and shield is going to do X + Y damage (where Y = number of attacks, I.e the difference between a d8 and a d6. A dual wielding character will do 2X damage (assuming you have access to fighting styles).

This is not correct. Even if a Dual Wielder uses a Vex weapon in their rotation (advisable), they are going to depend on Nick which will break the Vex chain. A character with a single weapon can more consistently maintain the Vex chain, increasing their accuracy (significantly) and critical chance (slightly).

In addition, you will have to spend a Bonus Action the first round to change your target or cast the spell, reducing your edge. 

Quote from bhthephoenix >>

Also it’s important to note that 3 of the 4 attacks get Vex. Only the attack with nick lacks vex. So you should always use nick. 

The formula I have is for estimating the long run average for Vex. It's going to be less for the dual wielder because the chain will always be interrupted. Additionally, since the Dual Wielder is taking a feat, the attribute bonus falls behind for a bit, reducing accuracy and per hit damage (slightly). I simply don't have the formula that models that scenario and it has been decades since Cal 3 and Linear Algebra (if they even covered the topic) so that's what I have. If you have the "fancy calculations" for it, show us your numbers.

As for always using Nick, I am not sure what you mean. Nick boosts the DPS for the Dual Wielder and more often than not (about 60% to 65% of the time), it will be benefitting from Advantage as a follow up to the Vex attack. To be an apples-to-apples comparison, I will use a mastery and Fighting Style that helps the sword and board user's DPS as much as possible, so I am going to use a Vex weapon instead of a Nick one.

Quote from bhthephoenix >>

Dual wielders will pretty much always do twice the damage. 

Dual Wielders with Nick will might do twice the damage as someone with one or two attacks per action and no Bonus Action attack. As soon as we are talking 3+ attacks or the other character has a Bonus Action, the gap closes pretty quickly. 

Quote from bhthephoenix >>

Also while this thread is focusing on a shield you should actually dual wield with a greatsword or great axe and not a shield. 

I believe you are referring to weapon juggling to attack once with a light weapon, any additional attacks with a two-handed weapon, a Nick weapon as part of the Attack action, and a Bonus Action for the Dual Wielder attack. Is that right? Don't give SunIsGettingRealLow86589 an aneurism...

Also, Halberd is probably better. Smaller damage die, but the reach helps with Cleave. You can also take Polearm Master instead of Dual Wielder if you want.

Quote from bhthephoenix>>

Smitemakesright I think your calculations miss a crucial component. 

The first is that if you are dual wielding you are almost certainly going to have Hex/Hunters Mark/other ways to increase your damage per attack.

With the two additional attacks from dual wielding that is significantly more damage than is being accounted for. 

In the game I played in my Ranger was doing nearly double the damage that the sword and shield fighter was doing. While obviously that is an unfair comparison, my point is that focusing on straight weapon damage is misleading. 

You really don’t need fancy calculations. Someone with a sword and shield is going to do X + Y damage (where Y = number of attacks, I.e the difference between a d8 and a d6. A dual wielding character will do 2X damage (assuming you have access to fighting styles). Dual wielders will pretty much always do twice the damage. 

Id argue that even if you determine the damage output is only slightly better you should always dual wield and use a shield over a single weapon if your dm allows for it. Because even 1 additional damage is better.