Also silver, mitheral and adamantine, dragon hide Items mage from these are classified as magic however it does not seem like the material itself is magic.
If I am not mistaken, mithral and dragonhide are not available as separate items so every aspect of that is a DM call.
The adamantine bar is a special case as it only exists as a MacGuffin for an adventure. That's a DM's call but I would lean towards allowing it because it is specifically listed as something to purchase in that adventure. It is worth noting however, that it is a 2014 era adventure and Xanathar's listed Adamantine Weapons and Ammunition as nonmagical and Adamantine Weapons have been updated to magic items in 2024. It is not clear what the intended nature of Adamantine Ammunition and Adamantine Bars are in 2024.
Context is not a house rule. The text that raw materials are used creates items suggests that the two are different. The fact that adventurers do not normally craft is consistent with "items" being end products and raw materials are not "items". The way crafting was buried in the 5e rules was a major complaint when they came out and Xanathar's provided additional details in response. While the situation has improved in some ways with the 2024, I think WotC is still treating crafting as something adventurers don't do. The mechanics make the task still difficult for characters to undertake themselves and instead you have mechanics for NPCs crafting for you via Bastions and purchasing equipment. The money awards will tend to scale such that it is not worth the time to craft anything yourself; just buy it if it's a thing you can buy or sell. >>
When a mundane item is required for crafting a magic item, it is separate from the raw materials for the magic item. The mundane item is not a raw material and it does not reduce the raw materials. If you are crafting Uncommon Magic Plate Armor, you have to provide 200 GP in raw materials and Plate Armor which you can buy for 1,500 GP or craft for 750 GP. If you think mundane items are reducing the raw material cost of magic items, reread the DMG.
No, but only because we need to examine the sentence structure to infer a definition. I have repeatedly stated that the usage suggests a meaning or intent. You are free to disregard it or disagree with it without needing a counter. However, a dictionary definition, isn't particularly helpful in this case. "a list, collection, or set" have no significance if they are not limited. For example, a collection could be whole numbers and 1 would be a member but 1.5 would not even though they would both be a part of a collection of numbers or real numbers. Without a definition of a list, collection, or set, the dictionary definition does nothing for us. The writing pattern and the definition of raw materials does suggest that raw materials and items are not included in the same sets.
Accusing another of "hating crafting" and "needing to be right" are personal attacks and they weren't the only ones.
And no, D&D's rules are not particularly good at either except in that they limit player crafting in general.
The reason is because of the language of the Fabricate spell seems to imply that raw materials can be physically seen and targeted within range of the spell. Whats more is the quality of them matters. So to me this implies there are at least two levels of raw materials: low quality and high quality. I think the case can be made RAI that trade goods are “high quality” but ones in nature can be either and it simply depends on the source. Healthy trees provide high quality wood….. diseased and drought stricken trees probably lower quality. I think its DM discretion, but do DM’s have a logical thought process here?
Raw materials are tangible items in the world that players and DMs are supposed to be able to see and evaluate the quality of. That is RAW.
Fabricate doesn't care about the quality of raw materials. Mechanically, all that matters is the GP value of the raw materials and/or DM's thumbs up. There is no quality level.
Here are a few observations:
1. You did not address the issue that Fabricate treats raw materials as real things that can be seen and must be targeted. They are not a nebulous abstraction.
2. The grammar argument you make falls flat simply because we already know that items in 2024 player inventory have different subcategories, and one of those categories “other” fits all of the things that are not weapons, armor, etc. In that section we find things like a riding horse, which is not a crafted item. Likewise in Trade Goods we find livestock such as chickens, cows, sheep, pigs, etc. RAI, I think the livestock themselves falls under “Other” in the same way a riding horse does. You might try to make the case that they fall under currency rather than items in inventory.
3. I agree that the language of Fabricate is tricky when it comes to raw materials quality. But RAW the quality of the object depends on the quality of the materials. I intentionally did not quote the section of Fabricate text about crafting items with tools because I wanted to focus on the “seen within 50 feet part.”
4. Here is an aside: I think that Hack and Slash players might not see the value in crafting. But …. the part of it I am interested in is the ability to create custom magic items using the rules in the DMG. In particular I enjoy the idea of players combining two common magic items into one uncommon magic item using crafting, if such a thing is possible. Yes, this is Homebrew I suppose. But the “create magic item rules” are RAW, and maybe they are intended just as a DM tool. But I think it is an interesting possibility.
5. You might convince me with a pragmatic argument not to create crafting formulas nor to encourage it. But I enjoy the math of D&D and sometimes play with other math people. So it might be a fun hook with the right players.
6. Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was a long post and I am trying to sort these things out before I start another campaign with built in crafting quests. I think that it was very common in ancient times to be an Artisan in the employee of a local feudal lord, and to have to make things by special request. I think this would be a fun angle for a campaign. I enjoy the loot game.
1. You did not address the issue that Fabricate treats raw materials as real things that can be seen and must be targeted. They are not a nebulous abstraction.
It's irrelevant. Spells can target empty spaces without empty spaces being items. There zero no definition to what constitutes raw materials other than a GP value, so they are, in fact, nebulous abstractions.
2. The grammar argument you make falls flat simply because we already know that items in 2024 player inventory have different subcategories, and one of those categories “other” fits all of the things that are not weapons, armor, etc. In that section we find things like a riding horse, which is not a crafted item. Likewise in Trade Goods we find livestock such as chickens, cows, sheep, pigs, etc. RAI, I think the livestock themselves falls under “Other” in the same way a riding horse does. You might try to make the case that they fall under currency rather than items in inventory.
I did not say "crafted product". I said, "end product", as in, the item is used by an adventurer as is. This can include crafted items, but it can also include naturally occurring items like Horses and Elephants and many Trade Goods, if you can call domesticated animals naturally occurring versus crafted. This does not contradict the writing pattern of the book as it defines an object as a discrete, inanimate item, suggesting that there are discrete, animate items, such as Horses, Elephants, non-Abyssal Chickens, and the like.
3. I agree that the language of Fabricate is tricky when it comes to raw materials quality. But RAW the quality of the object depends on the quality of the materials. I intentionally did not quote the section of Fabricate text about crafting items with tools because I wanted to focus on the “seen within 50 feet part.”
Without any rules on the quality of raw materials or the quality of crafted items, "the quality of any fabricated objects is based on the quality of the raw materials" is meaningless. Do you have a reference where either of those are defined?
But …. the part of it I am interested in is the ability to create custom magic items using the rules in the DMG. In particular I enjoy the idea of players combining two common magic items into one uncommon magic item using crafting, if such a thing is possible. Yes, this is Homebrew I suppose. But the “create magic item rules” are RAW, and maybe they are intended just as a DM tool. But I think it is an interesting possibility.
Yes, that is 100% homebrew and/or DM only area and should be separated from RAW consideration. The 3.x crafting rules might be more interesting to you than the 5e ones. Now those were some interesting custom magic item rules. I believe they are part of the d20 SRD so you can check them out online.
5. You might convince me with a pragmatic argument not to create crafting formulas nor to encourage it. But I enjoy the math of D&D and sometimes play with other math people. So it might be a fun hook with the right players.
I will do no such thing. I don't want to influence what you do at your table, per se. I want to help you start from an understanding of RAW and RAI so that you face the fewest surprises when you adjudicate whichever way you decide. Whether your games are Spartan or Monte Haul, have fun and do what you enjoy. I don't think the areas where we disagree are significant to matter nor certain enough to reach a solid conclusion. My wife and I very much toss out or change rules that we think are stupid or unfun but we (more so I than she) try to keep in mind what is a house rule versus RAW.
6. Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was a long post and I am trying to sort these things out before I start another campaign with built in crafting quests. I think that it was very common in ancient times to be an Artisan in the employee of a local feudal lord, and to have to make things by special request. I think this would be a fun angle for a campaign. I enjoy the loot game.
I don't know that such artisans got out much for multiple reasons. However, in a fantasy, less historically accurate setting, it could be fun, whether the group includes one or more artisans or the entire group is playing fetch for the retained artisans, it could be fun. You might also like trying to see if you can find a breakdown of early EverQuest 2 crafting as the crafting professions had to craft components that were used to craft final items. Sometimes, the components you crafted were not even usable by your crafting class. For example, Alchemists created the oils used by a Tailor to create the leather padding for leather (Tailor) and metal (Armorer) armor. They simplified it later, but you might like using the original as a basis. If you find crafting recipes needing Washes, Oils, Resins, or Tempers (WORTs), you found the old stuff. For reference, when I quit, I was an 85+ Paladin and a 90 Armorer (90 was the cap at the time). Crafting was very rewarding in that game because it wasn't shove things in a box and get a thing out. You can probably puzzle out a similar system, but I think it might be a good fit for your campaign model if you can find a reference.
The Poison, Basic is an item listed in Equipment so i don't see why Crafter Discount wouldn't apply.
Other poisons available in the Dungeon Master Guide could very well too when available for purchase.
If I am not mistaken, mithral and dragonhide are not available as separate items so every aspect of that is a DM call.
The adamantine bar is a special case as it only exists as a MacGuffin for an adventure. That's a DM's call but I would lean towards allowing it because it is specifically listed as something to purchase in that adventure. It is worth noting however, that it is a 2014 era adventure and Xanathar's listed Adamantine Weapons and Ammunition as nonmagical and Adamantine Weapons have been updated to magic items in 2024. It is not clear what the intended nature of Adamantine Ammunition and Adamantine Bars are in 2024.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Here are a few observations:
1. You did not address the issue that Fabricate treats raw materials as real things that can be seen and must be targeted. They are not a nebulous abstraction.
2. The grammar argument you make falls flat simply because we already know that items in 2024 player inventory have different subcategories, and one of those categories “other” fits all of the things that are not weapons, armor, etc. In that section we find things like a riding horse, which is not a crafted item. Likewise in Trade Goods we find livestock such as chickens, cows, sheep, pigs, etc. RAI, I think the livestock themselves falls under “Other” in the same way a riding horse does. You might try to make the case that they fall under currency rather than items in inventory.
3. I agree that the language of Fabricate is tricky when it comes to raw materials quality. But RAW the quality of the object depends on the quality of the materials. I intentionally did not quote the section of Fabricate text about crafting items with tools because I wanted to focus on the “seen within 50 feet part.”
4. Here is an aside: I think that Hack and Slash players might not see the value in crafting. But …. the part of it I am interested in is the ability to create custom magic items using the rules in the DMG. In particular I enjoy the idea of players combining two common magic items into one uncommon magic item using crafting, if such a thing is possible. Yes, this is Homebrew I suppose. But the “create magic item rules” are RAW, and maybe they are intended just as a DM tool. But I think it is an interesting possibility.
5. You might convince me with a pragmatic argument not to create crafting formulas nor to encourage it. But I enjoy the math of D&D and sometimes play with other math people. So it might be a fun hook with the right players.
6. Thank you for taking the time to reply. It was a long post and I am trying to sort these things out before I start another campaign with built in crafting quests. I think that it was very common in ancient times to be an Artisan in the employee of a local feudal lord, and to have to make things by special request. I think this would be a fun angle for a campaign. I enjoy the loot game.
7. Read #1 again. I put it first on purpose. ;)
It's irrelevant. Spells can target empty spaces without empty spaces being items. There zero no definition to what constitutes raw materials other than a GP value, so they are, in fact, nebulous abstractions.
I did not say "crafted product". I said, "end product", as in, the item is used by an adventurer as is. This can include crafted items, but it can also include naturally occurring items like Horses and Elephants and many Trade Goods, if you can call domesticated animals naturally occurring versus crafted. This does not contradict the writing pattern of the book as it defines an object as a discrete, inanimate item, suggesting that there are discrete, animate items, such as Horses, Elephants, non-Abyssal Chickens, and the like.
Without any rules on the quality of raw materials or the quality of crafted items, "the quality of any fabricated objects is based on the quality of the raw materials" is meaningless. Do you have a reference where either of those are defined?
Typical downtimes make crafting prohibitive and you will often find that you will outpace your planned crafting project.
Yes, that is 100% homebrew and/or DM only area and should be separated from RAW consideration. The 3.x crafting rules might be more interesting to you than the 5e ones. Now those were some interesting custom magic item rules. I believe they are part of the d20 SRD so you can check them out online.
I will do no such thing. I don't want to influence what you do at your table, per se. I want to help you start from an understanding of RAW and RAI so that you face the fewest surprises when you adjudicate whichever way you decide. Whether your games are Spartan or Monte Haul, have fun and do what you enjoy. I don't think the areas where we disagree are significant to matter nor certain enough to reach a solid conclusion. My wife and I very much toss out or change rules that we think are stupid or unfun but we (more so I than she) try to keep in mind what is a house rule versus RAW.
I don't know that such artisans got out much for multiple reasons. However, in a fantasy, less historically accurate setting, it could be fun, whether the group includes one or more artisans or the entire group is playing fetch for the retained artisans, it could be fun. You might also like trying to see if you can find a breakdown of early EverQuest 2 crafting as the crafting professions had to craft components that were used to craft final items. Sometimes, the components you crafted were not even usable by your crafting class. For example, Alchemists created the oils used by a Tailor to create the leather padding for leather (Tailor) and metal (Armorer) armor. They simplified it later, but you might like using the original as a basis. If you find crafting recipes needing Washes, Oils, Resins, or Tempers (WORTs), you found the old stuff. For reference, when I quit, I was an 85+ Paladin and a 90 Armorer (90 was the cap at the time). Crafting was very rewarding in that game because it wasn't shove things in a box and get a thing out. You can probably puzzle out a similar system, but I think it might be a good fit for your campaign model if you can find a reference.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.