A lot of emphasis is put on Divine Smite 's trigger, but for me what is as much telling wether its a seperate instance of damage or the same one as the attack is the fact that its an extra damage from the attack.
Dude, that is literally sequential timing. You determine if it's a hit, then you roll damage.
Ok, we're kind of splitting hairs here and perhaps my wording for my explanation on this point could have been better. The point that I was trying to make is that the rules establish what happens when you Make an Attack. It's a three-step process which gets fully completed before we move on to the next aspect of gameplay unless there was some sort of event-trigger happening during this process. Within this, one single step is listed which says that you determine if the attack hits and, on a hit, you roll the corresponding damage. It might be useful here to fully quote the entire rule so that we can see all of the context:
Making an Attack
When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure:
Choose a Target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
Determine Modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has Cover (see the next section) and whether you have Advantage or Disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
Resolve the Attack.Make the attack roll, as detailed earlier in this chapter. On a hit, you roll damage unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
Step #3 above is how an attack is resolved. If the attack is a hit, the damage is determined and applied as part of resolving the attack.
When a feature says that something happens "immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike", we are no longer talking about any moment that occurs within the resolution of the attack. We are talking about after that event has occurred.
"On a hit, you roll damage"
This continues to be a two-step process. You're arguing that the hit is also the damage, or that "immediately after hitting" actually means immediately after the damage, or something, and that's just... an incredibly odd reading.
If the trigger was meant to occur during the attack in question, then the authors would have used a phrase such as "when" or "during", not "after".
Those aren't terms of art, and they're moderately interchangeable in normal English usage.
The writers of D&D 5e have never set down in print anything resembling a complete timing model.
Perhaps someday the writers might go into detail about the differences between "when" and "after" in a future Sage Advice entry.
That is not particularly likely to happen. They have had plenty of opportunities to formalize the timing model, and they appear to be entirely uninterested in doing so. And that's reasonable. It's both unnecessary and probably impossible. It certainly would not improve most people's play experience.
If they were doing strict templating, which they aren't, only one of those two words would be used in the context of triggering. Trying to maintain that level of fine distinction is massively confusing. If they meant to say "post-hit, pre-damage", they'd say "after a hit" or "when you hit", while "post-damage" would be "after you do damage" or "when you do damage".
Which is what they would be doing here if they intended to make the distinction you are arguing for. They wouldn't be trusting the readers to consistently parse out the difference between "when" and "after". If they meant "after damage", they could say "after damage". And if they didn't intend such a difference, the argument that this subtle shade of meaning is RAW gets even shakier.
I'm oft a critic of the rules writing of 5e, but their typical failure mode is over-looseness, not overly fussy shades of meaning that nobody will get right. Even when they do get fussy (mostly the light weapon attack stuff), it's still vastly clearer than the distinction you believe in.
All the smite spells say you take the bonus action immediately after hitting a target with a Melee weapon or an Unarmed Strike. If the attack, pre-smite, killed the enemy, that seems pretty immediate to me as well.
" Do you get to know if an enemy died before deciding to smite or not?"
If my dm didnt tell me, refused to answer when asked if it is dead, and basically pulled shenanigans to get me to burn a spell slot for smite just in case, i would find a new dm.
This is borderline dm-versus-pc behavior.
Not really. It's a matter of style -- how much information one normally gives the player.
It's also a matter of how one does the mechanics. If you're expecting the player to roll all damage dice at once, it's entirely possible not to know if they're dead or not before the player commits to the smite.
Its a matter of style, all right. The kind i would advise any player to run, dont walk, away from.
Its bean counting.
I've thrown 50 combatants at my parties, and once the party takes out the lieutenants and most of the cannon fodder, i usually hand wave the mopping up operations. If the party has demonstrated they have achieved victory, im not going to have them go through a couple more rounds of combat to take out the stragglers to try and burn up some of their resources.
Id rather focus on the adventure not the bean counting
Not really. It's a matter of style -- how much information one normally gives the player.
It's also a matter of how one does the mechanics. If you're expecting the player to roll all damage dice at once, it's entirely possible not to know if they're dead or not before the player commits to the smite.
Its a matter of style, all right. The kind i would advise any player to run, dont walk, away from.
It's a bit of Roleplaying versus Rollplaying. You can give indicators as to the health of NPCs without giving numbers or having everyone act at 100% then drop. Some DMs will tell players the numbers or exact/rough percentages. Some will use descriptive language to increase or maintain the immersion of the encounter. You lose a lot of tension and drama if the DM is just going to tell you there's no point. Instead of wasted PC resource, that's a wasted opportunity for the DM to highlight that final blow and describe the over-the-topness. A missed opportunity to translate that into demoralizing the remaining allies or inspiring the PC's allies. DMs with the right style will use thei imagination to play beyond the numbers and craft an interesting story.
In pickup games, you get what you get. For extended games, discuss the DM's style at session zero and plan around it. I would say that the rules have been laid out thoroughly, but it really comes down to the DM and before you count on any strategy, discuss it with the DM and make sure it works the way you expect at their table. It can be fun when a spur of the moment plan comes together and surprisingly works, but if you have a tactic in mind ahead of time, there's no merit in not letting your DM know. The only reason to do so would be to blindside the DM and pressure them into making a decision they wouldn't otherwise make. I like to think that the days of DMs versus players are generally behind us.
[...] I like to think that the days of DMs versus players are generally behind us.
This should be the way, IMHO.
As a DM, it's not on my mind to take advantage of the rules all the time just to prevent players from enjoying their features or having a good moment during the game.
The replies here have made me wonder the following: If Divine Smite and Shield are interpreted to both happen immediately on a hit, can the target of the attack choose to cast Shield after the attacker chooses to cast Divine Smite?
The replies here have made me wonder the following: If Divine Smite and Shield are interpreted to both happen immediately on a hit, can the target of the attack choose to cast Shield after the attacker chooses to cast Divine Smite?
[...] Secondly, they do have different timing. Shield interrupts hit determination. Smites are post-hit-determination. You can't wait until your opponent activates their smite to say "well, then I'll shield". (Probably. It's certainly how I'd play it, but without a deep dive I can't be bothered to do, I'm not convinced it's actually 100% clear-cut. Anyway, that way lies madness. This is not an invitation to debate that question.) [...]
Even weirder: If a creature hits, chooses to use their bonus action to Smite, and then the target castes Shield, which causes the initial attack to miss, does the attacker get their bonus action and Smite back - since the condition for using the bonus action and Smite are no longer met, and therefore, could not have been used....
As a DM, since I play D&D, not Magic: the Gathering, I would generally always err on the side of the player. If the PC were the target of the attack, I would give them the option to cast shield after the successful hit; but, if they decline, and the attacker triggers the Smite - that opportunity has passed, and the PC takes the extra damage. This is no different than if the attack also caused some other effect triggered by a successful hit (conditions such as prone or poisoned, for example) - I would not allow the PC to retroactively cast Shield once the effects of the successful attack have been announced (nor would I expect to be able to do so as a player).
If the PC were the attacker, I would interject with the target's decision to cast Shield as soon after the attack was successful, and hopefully be able to do so before the bonus action & Smite were announced. I certainly would not require the PC to expend those resources.
Even weirder: If a creature hits, chooses to use their bonus action to Smite, and then the target castes Shield, which causes the initial attack to miss, does the attacker get their bonus action and Smite back - since the condition for using the bonus action and Smite are no longer met, and therefore, could not have been used....
If Shield cause the hit to instead miss, i would rule Divine Smite or any other effect triggerring on a hit to be unusable as the hit never occured.
A lot of emphasis is put on Divine Smite 's trigger, but for me what is as much telling wether its a seperate instance of damage or the same one as the attack is the fact that its an extra damage from the attack.
"On a hit, you roll damage"
This continues to be a two-step process. You're arguing that the hit is also the damage, or that "immediately after hitting" actually means immediately after the damage, or something, and that's just... an incredibly odd reading.
Those aren't terms of art, and they're moderately interchangeable in normal English usage.
That is not particularly likely to happen. They have had plenty of opportunities to formalize the timing model, and they appear to be entirely uninterested in doing so. And that's reasonable. It's both unnecessary and probably impossible. It certainly would not improve most people's play experience.
If they were doing strict templating, which they aren't, only one of those two words would be used in the context of triggering. Trying to maintain that level of fine distinction is massively confusing. If they meant to say "post-hit, pre-damage", they'd say "after a hit" or "when you hit", while "post-damage" would be "after you do damage" or "when you do damage".
Which is what they would be doing here if they intended to make the distinction you are arguing for. They wouldn't be trusting the readers to consistently parse out the difference between "when" and "after". If they meant "after damage", they could say "after damage". And if they didn't intend such a difference, the argument that this subtle shade of meaning is RAW gets even shakier.
I'm oft a critic of the rules writing of 5e, but their typical failure mode is over-looseness, not overly fussy shades of meaning that nobody will get right. Even when they do get fussy (mostly the light weapon attack stuff), it's still vastly clearer than the distinction you believe in.
Its a matter of style, all right. The kind i would advise any player to run, dont walk, away from.
Its bean counting.
I've thrown 50 combatants at my parties, and once the party takes out the lieutenants and most of the cannon fodder, i usually hand wave the mopping up operations. If the party has demonstrated they have achieved victory, im not going to have them go through a couple more rounds of combat to take out the stragglers to try and burn up some of their resources.
Id rather focus on the adventure not the bean counting
It's a bit of Roleplaying versus Rollplaying. You can give indicators as to the health of NPCs without giving numbers or having everyone act at 100% then drop. Some DMs will tell players the numbers or exact/rough percentages. Some will use descriptive language to increase or maintain the immersion of the encounter. You lose a lot of tension and drama if the DM is just going to tell you there's no point. Instead of wasted PC resource, that's a wasted opportunity for the DM to highlight that final blow and describe the over-the-topness. A missed opportunity to translate that into demoralizing the remaining allies or inspiring the PC's allies. DMs with the right style will use thei imagination to play beyond the numbers and craft an interesting story.
In pickup games, you get what you get. For extended games, discuss the DM's style at session zero and plan around it. I would say that the rules have been laid out thoroughly, but it really comes down to the DM and before you count on any strategy, discuss it with the DM and make sure it works the way you expect at their table. It can be fun when a spur of the moment plan comes together and surprisingly works, but if you have a tactic in mind ahead of time, there's no merit in not letting your DM know. The only reason to do so would be to blindside the DM and pressure them into making a decision they wouldn't otherwise make. I like to think that the days of DMs versus players are generally behind us.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
This should be the way, IMHO.
As a DM, it's not on my mind to take advantage of the rules all the time just to prevent players from enjoying their features or having a good moment during the game.
The replies here have made me wonder the following: If Divine Smite and Shield are interpreted to both happen immediately on a hit, can the target of the attack choose to cast Shield after the attacker chooses to cast Divine Smite?
I'd follow this ruling:
Oh yeah, I missed that part among all the long posts.
No, no problem at all! It's a tricky interaction, to be honest.
Even weirder: If a creature hits, chooses to use their bonus action to Smite, and then the target castes Shield, which causes the initial attack to miss, does the attacker get their bonus action and Smite back - since the condition for using the bonus action and Smite are no longer met, and therefore, could not have been used....
As a DM, since I play D&D, not Magic: the Gathering, I would generally always err on the side of the player. If the PC were the target of the attack, I would give them the option to cast shield after the successful hit; but, if they decline, and the attacker triggers the Smite - that opportunity has passed, and the PC takes the extra damage. This is no different than if the attack also caused some other effect triggered by a successful hit (conditions such as prone or poisoned, for example) - I would not allow the PC to retroactively cast Shield once the effects of the successful attack have been announced (nor would I expect to be able to do so as a player).
If the PC were the attacker, I would interject with the target's decision to cast Shield as soon after the attack was successful, and hopefully be able to do so before the bonus action & Smite were announced. I certainly would not require the PC to expend those resources.
If Shield cause the hit to instead miss, i would rule Divine Smite or any other effect triggerring on a hit to be unusable as the hit never occured.
Indeed. I think the interaction outlined there is just another reason to rule that trigger for Shield is immediately before the trigger for Smite.