It's consistent with the model that ability score increases from feats are one-off, instantaneous changes, but that model produces weird results when one pokes at the edge cases.
I don't think you've actually explained what you find to be "weird" about the scenario you proposed. It doesn't seem weird to me, or problematic
I think disappearing stat points is problematic, even if you need some very contrived circumstances to do it.
And if there's ever a mechanism where you can lose feats, swap them out, or gain them temporarily, it becomes obviously unworkable.
If you're viewing a point as having "disappeared" in your first scenario, then a point "disappears" every time you match a feat to a maxed-out stat. So it doesn't require any contrivance at all
It's consistent with the model that ability score increases from feats are one-off, instantaneous changes, but that model produces weird results when one pokes at the edge cases.
I don't think you've actually explained what you find to be "weird" about the scenario you proposed. It doesn't seem weird to me, or problematic
I think disappearing stat points is problematic, even if you need some very contrived circumstances to do it.
And if there's ever a mechanism where you can lose feats, swap them out, or gain them temporarily, it becomes obviously unworkable.
If you're viewing a point as having "disappeared" in your first scenario, then a point "disappears" every time you match a feat to a maxed-out stat. So it doesn't require any contrivance at all
I was referring to the second scenario.
Then you completely lost me. I don't see any stat points that disappeared there
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're right. I forgot how strongly the general rule is worded for this -- for some reason I was thinking that each feature was responsible for capping itself since wording for such caps appears all over the place within the various Feats and other features. I guess all of those phrases such as "This feat can’t increase an ability score above 20" or "Increase . . . to a maximum of 20" is actually just unnecessary and redundant after all. Kind of strange, really.
I find these two rulings to be inconsistent. Also, there is nothing within the wording for the greater restoration spell that interacts with any sort of cap.
So you're just going to ignore that the artifact property tells you how it interacts with greater restoration, huh
It sounds like you believe that there is a mechanical difference for some reason? The wording that you are referring to just says "A Greater Restoration spell restores the ability". The two possible interpretations for how that gets resolved are exactly the same ones that I've already listed above.
In my opinion, you really cannot restore something to a quality beyond what it had originally. If a house was built in the 1800s, it had a certain quality when it was first built. Over time it may have decayed and deteriorated to a lesser quality. If a historical restoration project is commissioned to restore that house, the result is that it is put back into the same condition that it had originally. Not better than it was originally. So, if the original quality / condition of this house was "18" and then it deteriorated down to a condition of "16" and then at some point someone put a little bit of work into it to make a few of the necessary repairs such that the condition of the house was raised back up to "17" . . . at that point if a restoration project is started from there and then subsequently completed, the result is not a house with a quality of "19" but instead it is simply restored back to "18".
The same is true when considering the benefits of a Long Rest:
"When you finish the rest, you gain the following benefits: . . . Ability Scores Restored. If any of your ability scores were reduced, they return to normal."
The above wording also results in a progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 18. I don't think that the progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 19 ever makes any sense based on any of the wording that we have seen for any of these Features. In many cases, the "gain" which occurred from 16 --> 17 is simply lost. It's one of the negative side-effect consequences of having an ability score reduced.
Then you completely lost me. I don't see any stat points that disappeared there
20, reduced to 18 by the artifact's curse. Raised to 19. Stat is restored, becomes 20 because of the cap. Curse is reapplied, and the stat is now 18. A point's gone missing.
The question is whether one treats the stat as just being 20 or 21, which is clipped to 20.
In my opinion, you really cannot restore something to a quality beyond what it had originally. If a house was built in the 1800s, it had a certain quality when it was first built. Over time it may have decayed and deteriorated to a lesser quality. If a historical restoration project is commissioned to restore that house, the result is that it is put back into the same condition that it had originally. Not better than it was originally. So, if the original quality / condition of this house was "18" and then it deteriorated down to a condition of "16" and then at some point someone put a little bit of work into it to make a few of the necessary repairs such that the condition of the house was raised back up to "17" . . . at that point if a restoration project is started from there and then subsequently completed, the result is not a house with a quality of "19" but instead it is simply restored back to "18".
The same is true when considering the benefits of a Long Rest:
"When you finish the rest, you gain the following benefits: . . . Ability Scores Restored. If any of your ability scores were reduced, they return to normal."
The above wording also results in a progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 18. I don't think that the progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 19 ever makes any sense based on any of the wording that we have seen for any of these Features. In many cases, the "gain" which occurred from 16 --> 17 is simply lost. It's one of the negative side-effect consequences of having an ability score reduced.
This is a very odd way to treat it. The curse is not "your stat is reduced from X to Y". It's "your stat is reduced by 2". I see no reason not to treat "your current stats" any different to "your current armor class" -- a baae value, increased by bonuses and decreased by penalties. The only difference is that a PC's stats are clamped to 20. There are questions, unanswered in RAW, about the location of the ceiling in the pile of bonuses and penalties. There are also questions, equally unanswered, as to whether a permanent bonus applied to a 20 stat exists or not. If the cap didn't exist, these questions wouldn't ever be asked.
This is a very odd way to treat it. The curse is not "your stat is reduced from X to Y". It's "your stat is reduced by 2". I see no reason not to treat "your current stats" any different to "your current armor class" -- a baae value, increased by bonuses and decreased by penalties. The only difference is that a PC's stats are clamped to 20. There are questions, unanswered in RAW, about the location of the ceiling in the pile of bonuses and penalties. There are also questions, equally unanswered, as to whether a permanent bonus applied to a 20 stat exists or not. If the cap didn't exist, these questions wouldn't ever be asked.
I think it's just up to the DM to do the best that they can based on how things are worded on a case-by-case basis.
For example, since you brought up the Armor Class stat . . . the game goes out of its way to refer to something called a "calculation" for that stat which sort of exists on an ongoing basis for the creature. "If a rule gives you another base AC calculation, you choose which calculation to use; you can’t use more than one." So, your current base AC at any given moment is a result of applying the various bonuses and penalties that are called for in this calculation. In this way, those additions and reductions work more like you've been saying in this thread -- more like an ongoing condition that is "attached" to the creature until something changes, instead of a one-time thing that happens which causes a "permanent" result. So, certain things are worded in a way that supports that model and other things are worded in a way that supports the other model.
To stay with the AC example, if a monster possessed some sort of special attack such that your AC is reduced on a hit, then this would be treated differently than how the base AC is determined. Your current AC used to be equal to your base AC, but then something has "permanently" modified it. Of course, such an ability would have to be carefully worded because what's to stop you from choosing a different base AC calculation and then switching back -- does this cancel out the AC reduction from the monster attack? It shouldn't, but it would depend on how things are worded.
For the stats that we are discussing, the Features that we've looked at so far are not worded in such a way that there is some sort of persistent effect that causes an adjustment to the stat "while" or "during" the time that such an effect remains. Instead, the stat is simply reduced which results in a new value. You basically use your pencil eraser and erase whatever the value was before and write in a new value. This is similar to what happens to HP when you take damage. Your current HP is just changed. It's uncommon for your HP to be modified "while" something is affecting you and then that change is reversed when you are no longer affected. Uncommon, but such examples do exist, such as the Aid spell. Compare the wording for the Aid spell vs the wording for the Cure Wounds spell, for example. All of the Features that we are looking at so far that modify an ability score are worded more like Cure Wounds rather than like Aid.
In the case of the Artifact feature, it basically says that when you attune, your stat is reduced by 2 AND that Greater Restoration restores the ability. Compare this to a hypothetical alternate wording that says that while you are attuned, your stat is reduced by 2 and that Greater Restoration does nothing. Now, in that case the +2 would be tracked on an ongoing basis and when you un-attune that Artifact you would reverse that adjustment by exactly +2. But as written, I don't think that's what happens. I think that a method is provided to simply restore the ability score which had been modified.
Then you completely lost me. I don't see any stat points that disappeared there
20, reduced to 18 by the artifact's curse. Raised to 19. Stat is restored, becomes 20 because of the cap. Curse is reapplied, and the stat is now 18. A point's gone missing.
The question is whether one treats the stat as just being 20 or 21, which is clipped to 20.
That was the first scenario... ? At least in my post it was. We got our wires crossed
Anyway, take the artifact out of the equation, and you could say the same thing -- that "a point's gone missing" because you took the feat when you had a 20. Which is in fact exactly what you did in this scenario, only the 20 was hidden behind the artifact's curse
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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I was referring to the second scenario.
Then you completely lost me. I don't see any stat points that disappeared there
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're right. I forgot how strongly the general rule is worded for this -- for some reason I was thinking that each feature was responsible for capping itself since wording for such caps appears all over the place within the various Feats and other features. I guess all of those phrases such as "This feat can’t increase an ability score above 20" or "Increase . . . to a maximum of 20" is actually just unnecessary and redundant after all. Kind of strange, really.
It sounds like you believe that there is a mechanical difference for some reason? The wording that you are referring to just says "A Greater Restoration spell restores the ability". The two possible interpretations for how that gets resolved are exactly the same ones that I've already listed above.
In my opinion, you really cannot restore something to a quality beyond what it had originally. If a house was built in the 1800s, it had a certain quality when it was first built. Over time it may have decayed and deteriorated to a lesser quality. If a historical restoration project is commissioned to restore that house, the result is that it is put back into the same condition that it had originally. Not better than it was originally. So, if the original quality / condition of this house was "18" and then it deteriorated down to a condition of "16" and then at some point someone put a little bit of work into it to make a few of the necessary repairs such that the condition of the house was raised back up to "17" . . . at that point if a restoration project is started from there and then subsequently completed, the result is not a house with a quality of "19" but instead it is simply restored back to "18".
The same is true when considering the benefits of a Long Rest:
"When you finish the rest, you gain the following benefits: . . . Ability Scores Restored. If any of your ability scores were reduced, they return to normal."
The above wording also results in a progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 18. I don't think that the progression of 18 --> 16 --> 17 --> 19 ever makes any sense based on any of the wording that we have seen for any of these Features. In many cases, the "gain" which occurred from 16 --> 17 is simply lost. It's one of the negative side-effect consequences of having an ability score reduced.
20, reduced to 18 by the artifact's curse. Raised to 19. Stat is restored, becomes 20 because of the cap. Curse is reapplied, and the stat is now 18. A point's gone missing.
The question is whether one treats the stat as just being 20 or 21, which is clipped to 20.
This is a very odd way to treat it. The curse is not "your stat is reduced from X to Y". It's "your stat is reduced by 2". I see no reason not to treat "your current stats" any different to "your current armor class" -- a baae value, increased by bonuses and decreased by penalties. The only difference is that a PC's stats are clamped to 20. There are questions, unanswered in RAW, about the location of the ceiling in the pile of bonuses and penalties. There are also questions, equally unanswered, as to whether a permanent bonus applied to a 20 stat exists or not. If the cap didn't exist, these questions wouldn't ever be asked.
I think it's just up to the DM to do the best that they can based on how things are worded on a case-by-case basis.
For example, since you brought up the Armor Class stat . . . the game goes out of its way to refer to something called a "calculation" for that stat which sort of exists on an ongoing basis for the creature. "If a rule gives you another base AC calculation, you choose which calculation to use; you can’t use more than one." So, your current base AC at any given moment is a result of applying the various bonuses and penalties that are called for in this calculation. In this way, those additions and reductions work more like you've been saying in this thread -- more like an ongoing condition that is "attached" to the creature until something changes, instead of a one-time thing that happens which causes a "permanent" result. So, certain things are worded in a way that supports that model and other things are worded in a way that supports the other model.
To stay with the AC example, if a monster possessed some sort of special attack such that your AC is reduced on a hit, then this would be treated differently than how the base AC is determined. Your current AC used to be equal to your base AC, but then something has "permanently" modified it. Of course, such an ability would have to be carefully worded because what's to stop you from choosing a different base AC calculation and then switching back -- does this cancel out the AC reduction from the monster attack? It shouldn't, but it would depend on how things are worded.
For the stats that we are discussing, the Features that we've looked at so far are not worded in such a way that there is some sort of persistent effect that causes an adjustment to the stat "while" or "during" the time that such an effect remains. Instead, the stat is simply reduced which results in a new value. You basically use your pencil eraser and erase whatever the value was before and write in a new value. This is similar to what happens to HP when you take damage. Your current HP is just changed. It's uncommon for your HP to be modified "while" something is affecting you and then that change is reversed when you are no longer affected. Uncommon, but such examples do exist, such as the Aid spell. Compare the wording for the Aid spell vs the wording for the Cure Wounds spell, for example. All of the Features that we are looking at so far that modify an ability score are worded more like Cure Wounds rather than like Aid.
In the case of the Artifact feature, it basically says that when you attune, your stat is reduced by 2 AND that Greater Restoration restores the ability. Compare this to a hypothetical alternate wording that says that while you are attuned, your stat is reduced by 2 and that Greater Restoration does nothing. Now, in that case the +2 would be tracked on an ongoing basis and when you un-attune that Artifact you would reverse that adjustment by exactly +2. But as written, I don't think that's what happens. I think that a method is provided to simply restore the ability score which had been modified.
That was the first scenario... ? At least in my post it was. We got our wires crossed
Anyway, take the artifact out of the equation, and you could say the same thing -- that "a point's gone missing" because you took the feat when you had a 20. Which is in fact exactly what you did in this scenario, only the 20 was hidden behind the artifact's curse
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)