Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Monster_in_the_Darkness
Magical Darkness, cast on an umbrella. Cant see in or through.
Ah, ok. So I have been ruling wrong after all! Sigh.
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Èist ri Arirang aig BTS!Aside Blindsight, very few things let you see in non-Darkness areas Heavily Obscured such as Stinking Cloud or Fog Cloud.
I feel like Blindsight isn’t actually seeing…
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Èist ri Arirang aig BTS!Yeah, I remember when you were commenting about this in Darkness spell and true sight :)
Not sure what you mean by that, but Blindsight repeat thrice that you can see without relying on physical sight.
So there are effectively 5 levels of "lighting" effects?
Bright light: normal vision can see with normal rules.
Dim light, normal vision does targeting as normal. normal vision make visual perception checks at disadvantage. Darkvision and Devil Sight converts dim light to bright light. Example, in an enclosed cave and in dim range of a torch
Dark: darkvision converts dark to dim. .devils sight converts Dark to Bright Light. Normal vision target things in dark at disadvantage. Visual perception checks ar disadvantage. Examples: Unlit cave, hunger of hadar. Normal and darkvision see bright and dim areas on other side of darkness visible as normal(can see though dark).
Darkness Spell: Dark and unaffected by darkvision, normal and darkvision see aoe as dark, and normal and darkvision cannot see dim or bright areas on other side of aoe. Dark and Opaque to normal and darkvision. Devils sight and blindsight can see in and through Darkness spell aoe.
Fog cloud: effectively dark and opaque, like darkness spell, but devils sight canno see in or through. Visual perception checks and targeting at didadvantage. Blindsight converts to bright light?
Blindsight is unaffected by visual opaqueness? Like its a bat's echolocation and other things like that? But could be affected by Silence spell. Aaagggh. That means there are different layers of blindsight, cause blind fighting cant be using echolocation.
Blindsight rule says : "you can see anything that isn’t behind Total Cover" which confuses Cover with Concealment, and is driving me mad. Cause that means blind fighting style cant see through glass? But it can see in Silence aoe?
Trying to enumerate all the permutations results in many dozens of outcomes
I think what you have here is mostly how I would interpret it, except these:
"Darkness Spell: Dark and unaffected by darkvision, normal and darkvision see aoe as dark, and normal and darkvision cannot see dim or bright areas on other side of aoe. Dark and Opaque to normal and darkvision. Devils sight and blindsight can see in and through Darkness spell aoe."
I'm curious why you feel normal and darkvision cannot see dim or bright areas on the the other side. There is nothing in the spell that would suggest this, unless you are reading "Darkvision cannot see through it" to literally mean "through the entire area to the other side", which I don't feel is the most likely interpretation. If that were to be the interpretation, then it still doesn't say anything about normal vision, and if normal vision can see through an area of darkness to an area that is illuminated on the other side of the area of darkness, then it should be able to do that with the Darkness spell as well. Therefore the most likely meaning of "Darkvision cannot see through it" in regards to the Darkness spell is that when something is within the area of Darkness and you are outside of the area of Darkness, you cannot see that something with your sight, whether you have darkvision or not (disregarding truesight).
"Fog cloud: effectively dark and opaque, like darkness spell, but devils sight canno see in or through. Visual perception checks and targeting at didadvantage. Blindsight converts to bright light?"
A little nitpicky, but fog cloud doesn't make a "dark" space. It is only heavily obscured and blocks line of sight. I don't think it makes much difference, but when you say "dark" it sounds like you could eliminate some of the negative effects of a fog cloud with illumination, which is not the case. Secondly, Blindsight doesn't convert to "bright light", it simply means you can "see" things in the area regardless of the level of illumination. Functionally the same, probably, but it does mean you can see through things like Mirror Image.
"Blindsight rule says : "you can see anything that isn’t behind Total Cover" which confuses Cover with Concealment, and is driving me mad. Cause that means blind fighting style cant see through glass? But it can see in Silence aoe?"
Correct, Blind Fighting Style cannot "see" through glass, because, as I believe JC has stated before, glass still provides total cover. It is the same as a wall for the purposes of cover, according to the devs I believe. Personally I think that would be something the DM could rule on in the moment, but for things like Blind Fighting I would agree that it would block whatever method of "seeing" exists for Blind Fighting Style. And yes, it should work in an area of Silence, because nothing that I can see (going of of Tasha's rules for Blind Fighting Style) states that it does not work within an area of silence, or relies on hearing.
Fog Cloud create fog that isn't dark like Darkness. It's an Heavily Obscured like it but doesn't necessarily include a category of illumination that some special senses can see through.
Blind Fighting grant Blindsight which let you see without physical sight. While you can see anything in areas of Silence or Fog Cloud that isn’t behind Total Cover, it isn't echolocation per se as it doesn't require you to make any sound and interpreting returning echoes.
"I'm curious why you feel normal and darkvision cannot see dim or bright areas on the the other side"
The "cant see through it" part for one. For another, i cant visualize how an area of magical darkness could be dark, but still allow light to travel through it from the other side.
This picture of the monster in darkness is basically what i imagine the darkness spell looks like.
https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Monster_in_the_Darkness
The area under the umbrella is the aoe, and everything in that aoe is in darkness. If i can see thr other side of that aoe, (if i can see behind the umbrella) then i could, at the very least, see the silhouette of the monster in the darkness? If i cant see thr silhouette at all, then light from the other side somehow passes through the monster to get to me? I dont know how that would work. The monster would have to be invisible for all light to pass through it.
But then if it is invisible and all light passed through it, or if an area of magical darkness had no monsters in it, then all light would pass through it, and there would be a black patch of ground and everything else would look like normal. I would see the wall behind the darkness aoe, so i wouldnt even know there is a darkness aoe there. Thats just too weird for me.
The only way it makes sense to me visually is if it looks like the picture of the monster in the dark in the link. The aoe is black and no light emits from it or passes through it. From the outside, it looks like a black opaque balloon encloses the aoe. From the inside, you see nothing.
To me if something is too opaque to see into you shouldn't be able to see through to the other side as your line of Sight is blocked.
That's what I meant. You're seeing, but you're not using your eyes. It's seeing, but it's not seeing, IYKWIM.
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Èist ri Arirang aig BTS!That makes logical sense.
Hiya! You can call me Link. Here’s a bit about me:
Roomba Knight, Architect of the Cataclysm, Foxy Lunar Archpriest. Dubbed The Fluffy Bowman by Golden. He/They
Theatre Kid, Ravenclaw, bookworm, DM, Lego fanatic, flautist, mythology nerd, pedantic about spelling. I also love foxes, cats, otters, and red pandas!
I love Korean Mythology. If you want to ask me about something, send me a PM!
Èist ri Arirang aig BTS!That's fair. In general to me imagining an area of magical darkness that can exist outside on a bright and sunny day is just kind of hard to picture. Hunger of Hadar doesn't have the darkvision restriction, so going by the assumptions being made they should still be able to see into and through that area of magical darkness, which is just kind of odd to picture in a lot of circumstances.
That's directly intuitive when talking about opacity. (Fog Cloud)
But counter-intuitive when talking about luminosity. (Darkness)
The rules, however conflate both into Heavily Obscured, and here we are.
I don't find it counter-intuitive for Darkness spell since nonmagical light can't illuminate it.
But it is for nonmagical Darkness being opaque like any other source of Heavily Obscured areas. So i prefer to treat category of illumination from such absence of light differently than other source or phenomenon, being an exception which can be illuminated by light thus possibly seen into.
But non-magical darkness doesn't have that problem RAW.
It simply counts as Heavily Obscured. And although the description of HO in earlier chapters of the PHB uses the word "opaque", the rules glossary simply says that a creature is considered blinded when trying to see something "in a Heavily Obscured space." The word opaque is not there. This leads me to believe that the opacity (and, as such, the ability to see "through" it) is a DM call based on what thing is actually causing the heavy obscurement.
I guess we use different media as a sphere of inky black in broad daylight is something I have seen in movies, cartoons, manga etc so many times its not even slightly unusual to me conceptually.
Darkness isn't the only way to create an area of Darkness. A common way is just being dark. If you are in a large, dark room or space (such as a dungeon or cave), the area between two light sources (such as torches) would constitute Darkness but would not block sight between each other as long as those spaces are empty.
As such, your statement, "if something is too opaque to see into you shouldn't be able to see through to the other side as your line of Sight is blocked", is incorrect except for certain, specialized cases.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
"although the description of HO in earlier chapters of the PHB uses the word "opaque", the rules glossary simply says that a creature is considered blinded when trying to see something "in a Heavily Obscured space." The word opaque is not there. This leads me to believe that the opacity (and, as such, the ability to see "through" it) is a DM call based on what thing is actually causing the heavy obscurement."
I dunno. I think the designers oversimplified two very different ideas: cover and concealment.
Half cover gives +2 ac and dex save bonus.
Three quarter cover gives +5 ac and dex save
Full cover means you cant target them at all.
So far so good.
But then things get weird when the rules start talking about corner cases that say any physical object that blocks line of sight between attacker and target is COVER. A 10x10 glass window provides full cover to a medium sized object. A thin sheet of gauze, if big enough, provides total cover. A canvas tarp, of big enough, can provide total cover.
Maybe it is an effort to simplify things so dms dont have to argue with players about how much a tarp will slow an arrow. But its just stupid.
A camo colored tarp provides concealment. Dnd calls concealment light or heavily obscured. But it means its insubstantial. Like fog or a bedsheet or a thin pane of glass. Arrows, catapult shots, fireballs, and such can go though thin, weak objects like that. Those objects provide concealment (obscurement) but not cover.
You can hide behind concealment, but the enemy can still try to shoot and kill you. Concealment doesnt provide cover.
Spells that descibe a beam going from attacker to target might might be stopped by some amount of cover strong enough to stop it. But tissue paper or a pane of glass is not going to cut it.
They made that rule out of laziness.
And spells that dont describe beams that go from attacker to target shouldnt be affected at all by any "cover" if the attacker can see the target through glass. Suggestion should be able to target someone in a glass sphere. Nothing innthe spell describes anything needing to go through the space between attacker and target
Half and three quarter cover provides a bonus to ac for targeting and for DEX saving throws only. But full cover provides complete protection to all saving throws. Dex saves tend to be attached to physical phenomenom. But an int save spell is unaffected by half cover, so it should be unaffected by full cover.
Again, it was laziness. Make all spells act the same no matter how they work, how they are described, what damage type they usez what saving throw they use.
If you take all these rules and use them underwater, water will provide far more cover than a window pane. A fifty caliber bullet can only penetrate like 8 feet of water. So extending these rules to auatic settings, everything underwater more than 10 feet away should be treated as behind full cover, a watery pane of glass. Meaning nothing underwater should be targetable by any ranged weapon or spell of any type. But thats now how underwater combat works.
Laziness said a pane of glass is full cover and extending that just breaks underwater combat, so underwater combat needs its own set of rules.
A tarp is concealment, but should not be cover.
A window pane is not concealment and should not be cover.
But the game designers basically didnt want to deal with damage thresholds for everything to figure out if things can be penatrated by various attacks. So a tissue paper sheet is "full cover" cause they didnt want to deal with it.