Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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You cannot make another simulacrum out of one since the spell only works on Humanoids and Beasts. Also RAW, the simulacrums are Friendly to those you designate, while they follow the orders of whoever made them. This has the possibility of them needed to be order one by one, through the original to the most recent one.
Also what’s the point of creating a Simulacrum army at level 20? You just do nothing and let your drones do all the work, it’s kinda boring as all hell. Wait, what the hell does this mean for a Lich who could cast that spell, imagine they just cast Imprisonment on a powerful character, create a simulacrum of them. This could get worse if they capture a person who could also cast Simulacrum, I’m surprised stuff like this haven’t happened yet.
Yes that might keep you from using basic simulacrum to do this with a wizard.
But here is the text of wish:
“The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of level 8 or lower. If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.”
So I wonder if that text expands the use of simulacrum to all creatures.
Regardless…..
If you have two level 20 clerics (or even two wizards) the simulacrums could simply clone one of the players to create the army. That bypasses the creature type limitation.
Its a very narrow loophole but I think it works.
Two level 20 clerics can create an infinite clone army by using one of them as the archetype. This is absolutely bonkers.
Most campaigns end by level 12. Most players - myself included - have very little high level experience. Mine is limited to one shots.
One of the issues I see with this is that if a simulacrum dies, any simulacrum it made would also die. So you’d have to really strategize how to use them. One death could trigger half the army turning into snow.
Basically you’d want to use them to nuke the Big Bad as quickly as possible. You could probably take out an Epic Monster in one combat round with the right setup. But it could backfire tremendously and catastrophically too.
As far as the Lich….. yes. The thing is, a DM doesn’t need an exploit like this. They can just create creatures out of thin air anyway. The key is making the encounter possible to win.
If one assumes that this setup is possible, and that the simulacrum’s can take a turn on the same round they are created, then there is a mechanical limit to the number of clones that can be created within a single round.
The simulacrum must be within a certain range of the original archetype in order to make the clone, and the simulacrum itself must be within a certain range. Each simulacrum would have probably 30 feet of movement on its turn, but that only helps to a point.
I imagine something like a 60 foot by 60 foot grid (12 x 12 boxes on a map). There would be (maybe) 144 boxes that could be occupied, 2 by the pair of “parent” clerics. But whether or not you could actually occupy all of the boxes is questionable.
One thing you could do is have the archetype be a Cloud Giant goliath and use their racial ability to teleport to the desired space. You could, I imagine, fill up all 144 boxes by the end of Round 1.
Then round 2 you basically fire off a bunch of 9th level nukes. The goal would be to unleash max damage before the Dominos of Death cause the entire cleric battalion to become snow men.
If it was light domain clerics you could do 9th level scorching ray or fireball or maybe just have each one cast a high level summon and double the army size for even more 🧀.
Trickery clerics could all create a mirror copy of themselves and then run off with spirit guardians stacked like pancakes of destruction.☠️🥞
There’s so many options its really just a matter of geometry and dice math.
Which isn't actually possible :)
Exactly…
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Èist ri Arirang aig BTS!You’d have to assume that when simulacrum spell says that a simulacrum cannot cast this spell, it also places a limitation on the Wish spell. But Wish specifically says it removes all requirements for casting a spell. So if you read “caster is not a simulacrum” as a requirement, then Wish removes this limitation RAW.
Wish overrides the limitation. The caster is not actually casting simulacrum but Wish.
RAI it might be not intended.
RAW it sure seems possible.
I’m probably going to house rule its not possible because I don’t want to deal with that nonsense. 😂
That's not my interpretation. Wish says "... any requirements to cast that spell" in the description.
If what you say were true, then you could not apply Metamagic to your spells (*) or interact with other game features that use the wording "when you cast a spell...". Also, you could create infinite instances of Find Familiar, Find Steed, Leomund’s Secret Chest, Mage Hand, or Minor Illusion, which I don't think is the intent.
(*) in fact, there is a SAC about this:
Wish says "If you use it this way, you don’t need to meet any requirements to cast that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." that is clearly one clause, and clearly refers to conditions like VSM components, casting time, and whether or not it is on your spell list type of requirements. Wish does not change how the spell works.
Any other interpretation means that you could argue that any saving throw does not apply (since Wish states that "the spell simply takes effect"). That same interpretation would also mean that the 33% chance to "never be able to cast Wish again" is meaningless, since Wish "removes all requirements to cast the spell" - the act of casting the spell would remove the ban on casting the spell - an argument which is just nonsense.
Wish is what overrides the spell qualifications. You can only cast it once.
Sure I suppose a simulacrum might have all of those spells and each one have a familiar. But familiars are basically worthless at level 20 and die very quickly.
Metamagic’s twinned spell might have some applications. I am not really thnking of that here. I don’t think it works with simulacrum out of the box, but it might work with wish.
The sentence “Wish is the most powerful spell in the game” makes me want to push the envelope with it. I think a spell with the power to alter reality is simply going to break some rules once in a while.
Ok. I don’t read it that way. Rather I think the 2024 update attempted to address this with base simulacrum but left it possible with Wish.
Wish duplicates the effects of a spell and removes all requirements to cast it. Wish does not evade its own rules (33%). Just the requirements of the 8th or lower spell it dupes.
The saving throw bypass you mention would not be affected and I am not claiming that. The saving throw is not a requirement for casting the spell but a target’s ability to resist it so is just part of the effect. Whether it passes or fails it is cast.
I am merely suggesting that “non-simulacrum” is a requirement to cast of the original spell that the Wish spell overlooks. It simply is not in the standard spell categories section because it is a rarer feature that is not universally applicable to spells.
EDIT: for clarity.
If you’re writing a sentence like this, it seems like you already know you’re not acting in good faith.
I might even go so far as to say if you need to use the word “loophole” to describe what you’re trying to do, you know you’re not acting in good faith.
I get that’s it’s fun for people to go through the rules and look for unintended interactions. But there’s got to be limits. If you’re just theorycrafting this, go nuts, but don’t expect a DM to allow it.
Well I’m the DM so that’s why I’m here consulting folks.
My impression is that most people don’t actually play level 20.
Almost no one wants this to work.
I think its annoying from a DM perspective but then again I could probably shut it down with some Beholders.
I see. Wish is just one of those spells that is so broad its always going to cause problems and challenge assumptions.
I mean it has the ability to bend and reshape reality.
Its just bonkers.
But then again, most players never even get to cast it. So its just a bunch of words.
If you’re the DM, you just shut it down with, “No.”