Is Dual Wielder Necessary?

In a discussion, this question came up.

We all know the basic principle of Short Sword/Scimitar with Dual Wielder. During your Attack action, you get a normal attack and a Light/Nick attack. Then you get a Bonus Action attack via Dual Wielder.

However, while Nick can only be used once per turn, Light triggers from every Light weapon attack (it's just that you can only use one trigger because you only have one Bonus Action). So, in theory, you should be able to:  

• Attack with a Light weapon during Attack Action. This triggers the Light property.  
• Use that Light property coupled with the Nick property to attack with a different Light weapon during your Attack Action. This triggers the Light property.
• Use that Light property to attack as a Bonus Action with the first Light weapon during your Bonus Action.

There is a single key word you are missing about the Light mastery.

Light

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn....

You only can get one extra attack from the Light property. Nick moves that attack to be part of your action. In order to get another attack, you have to take Dual Wielder. Note though, that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder need not be with a Light weapon, merely one that is not Two-Handed, so you could make that attack with a Versatile weapon like a Longsword wielded in both hands for extra damage.

Is there specific text associated with Dual Wielder? I can't seem to locate it.

 EDIT: Duh, I was looking under Fighting Style and not General feats.

Dual Wielder

You gain the following benefits.

Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the Two-Handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.

Quick Draw. You can draw or stow two weapons that lack the Two-Handed property when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

A benefit of Dual Wielder is that your second weapon for the Bonus Action weapon attack does NOT have to be a Light weapon.

I'm assuming the talk is about the Dual Wielder feat and not ambiguous phrasing with skill names.

• With a Light property, you get a bonus attack with another light weapon. Dual wielder removes this requirement. So, you can dual wield a short sword and a long sword, which you couldn't do without the feat. 2014 rules allows you to even dual wield two long swords.
• Dual wielder also allows you to draw or stow two weapons instead of one.
• The 2014 rules also gave +1 AC if wielding two weapons.

What Nick allows you to do, is to attack twice with your Attack action meaning that your Bonus Action is still available, which is something rogues usually want to use to Disengage or Hide. Essentially Nick allows rogues to get 2 attacks instead of one.

Now, to answer the question whether Dual Wielder is necessary... Well.... No. And yes. Depends on your character. If you want to use a weapon that isn't Light, then yes, it is necessary. If you're constantly swapping weapons between turns, then yes, it is necessary. But just to wield two weapons and attack twice on a single turn, no.

Since you can only make one extra attack of the Light property, if you make it as make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, then your Bonus Action is available to use with other feature. wether its the extra attack of Dual Wielder feat, Martial Arts: Bonus Unarmed Strike, Scimitar of Speed etc

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, while Nick can only be used once per turn, Light triggers from every Light weapon attack (it's just that you can only use one trigger because you only have one Bonus Action).

 This is prevented by Nick:

Nick

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick doesn't grant you an extra attack of its own, instead changing the timing of the Light attack. So "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is referring to the extra attack of the light property. So, if you're using Nick, you can't take the light extra attack more than once, opening the door for DW to be useful.

(Is this excessively mechanically fiddly? Oh yeah.)

Quote from jl8e >>

(Is this excessively mechanically fiddly? Oh yeah.)

It wouldn't be D&D if there weren't a few things that were extra fiddly for no good reason.

Quote from Sequilonis >>

There is a single key word you are missing about the Light mastery.

Light

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn....

 

You only can get one extra attack from the Light property. Nick moves that attack to be part of your action. In order to get another attack, you have to take Dual Wielder. Note though, that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder need not be with a Light weapon, merely one that is not Two-Handed, so you could make that attack with a Versatile weapon like a Longsword wielded in both hands for extra damage.

You receive one extra attack each time you attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action.

The reason you can't take multiple Light weapon Bonus Action attacks is because you don't have multiple Bonus Actions, not because of an inherent limitation on the Light property itself.

To really understand what I'm seeing, consider this question: "Why is the Nick property restricted to once per turn?".

If, as you suggest, Light has some sort of implicit "once per turn" restriction, there's no reason to put such a restriction on Nick. The only reason for that rule to exist is if you can generate multiple Light triggers and need to select the one-and-only-one you're allowed to move.

I'd also note that your implicit "once per turn" restriction on Light breaks dual wield as it is currently understood. To run a standard Scimitar/Short Sword configuration, you need to trigger the Short Sword off the Scimitar and the Scimitar off the Short Sword. If there's only ever one Light weapon trigger, then you can't do that.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Sequilonis >>

There is a single key word you are missing about the Light mastery.

Light

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn....

 

You only can get one extra attack from the Light property. Nick moves that attack to be part of your action. In order to get another attack, you have to take Dual Wielder. Note though, that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder need not be with a Light weapon, merely one that is not Two-Handed, so you could make that attack with a Versatile weapon like a Longsword wielded in both hands for extra damage.

You receive one extra attack each time you attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action.

 An Attack action is not the same thing as an attack roll. With a single Attack action, you can make multiple attack rolls. The Light property is triggered when using the Attack action, meaning that you receive only one extra attack when you attack with a light weapon.

Quote from Scruvy >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Sequilonis >>

There is a single key word you are missing about the Light mastery.

Light

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn....

 

You only can get one extra attack from the Light property. Nick moves that attack to be part of your action. In order to get another attack, you have to take Dual Wielder. Note though, that the bonus action attack from Dual Wielder need not be with a Light weapon, merely one that is not Two-Handed, so you could make that attack with a Versatile weapon like a Longsword wielded in both hands for extra damage.

You receive one extra attack each time you attack with a Light weapon during your Attack action.

 An Attack action is not the same thing as an attack roll. With a single Attack action, you can make multiple attack rolls. The Light property is triggered when using the Attack action, meaning that you receive only one extra attack when you attack with a light weapon.

The Light property is not triggered when you declare the Attack action. Not only does it explicitly require an actual weapon attack but the choice of weapon for that attack determines what weapons can be used with the Light property.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Since you can only make one extra attack of the Light property, if you make it as make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, then your Bonus Action is available to use with other feature. wether its the extra attack of Dual Wielder feat, Martial Arts: Bonus Unarmed Strike, Scimitar of Speed etc

Go read the Light property again. There is no "you can only make one extra attack" limitation attached to it. You can make an extra attack for each time you use a Light weapon during your Attack action (and, in fact, even Dual Wielder implementations depend on this fact).

The "only one time" restriction is related to only receiving a single Bonus Action and the explicit limitations on Nick, not any limitation on Light itself.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, while Nick can only be used once per turn, Light triggers from every Light weapon attack (it's just that you can only use one trigger because you only have one Bonus Action).

 This is prevented by Nick:

Nick

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick doesn't grant you an extra attack of its own, instead changing the timing of the Light attack. So "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is referring to the extra attack of the light property. So, if you're using Nick, you can't take the light extra attack more than once, opening the door for DW to be useful.

(Is this excessively mechanically fiddly? Oh yeah.)

 

When you use a singular preposition, it's not referencing some vague collective elsewhere. It''s referencing the specific instance immediately prior. In this case, it references the Nick attack.

In terms of Dual Wielder being useful, bear in mind that the traditional use of this sort of feat isn't to enable dual wielding. It's to enable dual wielding with standard weapons - which is precisely what it does.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, while Nick can only be used once per turn, Light triggers from every Light weapon attack (it's just that you can only use one trigger because you only have one Bonus Action).

 This is prevented by Nick:

Nick

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick doesn't grant you an extra attack of its own, instead changing the timing of the Light attack. So "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is referring to the extra attack of the light property. So, if you're using Nick, you can't take the light extra attack more than once, opening the door for DW to be useful.

(Is this excessively mechanically fiddly? Oh yeah.)

When you use a singular preposition, it's not referencing some vague collective elsewhere. It''s referencing the specific instance immediately prior. In this case, it references the Nick attack.

In terms of Dual Wielder being useful, bear in mind that the traditional use of this sort of feat isn't to enable dual wielding. It's to enable dual wielding with standard weapons - which is precisely what it does.

 OK, here are the (mostly independent) counterarguments:

1. There is no Nick attack. Nick says nothing about giving you an attack. There is only the extra attack of the Light property, whose timing is changed by Nick. Therefore "this extra attack" must be "the extra attack of the Light property".
2. If it does not provide an extra attack, DW is an absolutely terrible feat. It lets you use a slightly bigger weapon, for negligibly more damage. It gives you a stat bump, which all feats do, and it gives you the very-occasionally-useful double draw/stow. Nobody would ever want to take this feat.
3. If you want to interpret the restriction of Nick as the singular case, then it means "you cannot make this specific instance of the light extra attack more than once", which is meaningless, as you can never make any specific attack more than once. It cannot be read as a restriction on Nick, because Nick, again, does not grant you an attack. (If Nick were restricted to once per turn, it would have to say "you cannot use this ability more than once per turn", or similar.)
4. In fact, #3 would be worse than meaningless. Each Nick attack would trigger the Light ability again. Since Nick is, again, not limited to once per turn, it would allow you to make another light extra attack, which could be pulled into the attack action by Nick, which triggers Light....

Again, this is fiddlier than it ought to be, and they don't explain the implications at all.

But you're still wrong.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Since you can only make one extra attack of the Light property, if you make it as make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, then your Bonus Action is available to use with other feature. wether its the extra attack of Dual Wielder feat, Martial Arts: Bonus Unarmed Strike, Scimitar of Speed etc

Go read the Light property again. There is no "you can only make one extra attack" limitation attached to it. You can make an extra attack for each time you use a Light weapon during your Attack action (and, in fact, even Dual Wielder implementations depend on this fact).

The "only one time" restriction is related to only receiving a single Bonus Action and the explicit limitations on Nick, not any limitation on Light itself.

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack with a different Light weapon either

As a Bonus Action

OR

As part of the Attack action.

Most importantly: You can make this extra attack only once per turn. 

Once you understand that Nick Mastery saying this extra attack refers to the one and only extra attack of the Light property, then you realize that regardless of how you do it, you can only make another one on subsequent turn thereafter.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Since you can only make one extra attack of the Light property, if you make it as make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action, then your Bonus Action is available to use with other feature. wether its the extra attack of Dual Wielder feat, Martial Arts: Bonus Unarmed Strike, Scimitar of Speed etc

Go read the Light property again. There is no "you can only make one extra attack" limitation attached to it. You can make an extra attack for each time you use a Light weapon during your Attack action (and, in fact, even Dual Wielder implementations depend on this fact).

The "only one time" restriction is related to only receiving a single Bonus Action and the explicit limitations on Nick, not any limitation on Light itself.

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack with a different Light weapon either

As a Bonus Action

OR

As part of the Attack action.

Most importantly: You can make this extra attack only once per turn. 

Once you understand that Nick Mastery saying this extra attack refers to the one and only extra attack of the Light property, then you realize that regardless of how you do it, you can only make another one on subsequent turn thereafter.

 VerilyRaze is not wrong that the Light property's extra attack is theoretically not capped.

It's just practically capped, either by Nick, or by the lack of additional bonus actions.

If you had a second bonus action through whatever means, you'd be able to make two light extra attacks that way, unless you used Nick. (This is unlikely to occur.)

This whole thing would be less confusing if they'd just put the limit in the Light property in the first place.

I agree but i don't think there's any way to get a second Bonus Action.

Otherwise there's many things done as a Bonus Action that you could do again.

This is my way of explaining it, but I think the experts above have already explained it well (EDIT: so I think I'm just repeating the same...)

• The "extra attack only once per turn" in the Nick Mastery Property refers to the extra attack granted by the Light property. Nick doesn't provide a new extra attack; it shifts the extra attack of the Light property from a Bonus Action to an extra attack as part of the Attack action, and adds a restriction to it: "You can make this extra attack only once per turn".
• Because of the previous rule, if you use Nick, you can only make the Light property's extra attack once per turn.
• The Dual Wielder feat provides another source for a bonus action attack, separate from both Light and Nick.

I usually recommend this video on the interaction between the Light Property, the Dual Wielder feat, the Two-Weapon Fighting Style, and the Nick Weapon Mastery: Why You Get 4 Attacks a Round by Level 5 in Dungeons & Dragons 2024 | D&D 2024 Rules Update

We also have this article on D&D Beyond: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook. From it:

To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.

It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.

The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.

Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from VerilyRaze >>

However, while Nick can only be used once per turn, Light triggers from every Light weapon attack (it's just that you can only use one trigger because you only have one Bonus Action).

 This is prevented by Nick:

Nick

When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.

Nick doesn't grant you an extra attack of its own, instead changing the timing of the Light attack. So "you can make this extra attack only once per turn" is referring to the extra attack of the light property. So, if you're using Nick, you can't take the light extra attack more than once, opening the door for DW to be useful.

(Is this excessively mechanically fiddly? Oh yeah.)

 

When you use a singular preposition, it's not referencing some vague collective elsewhere. It''s referencing the specific instance immediately prior. In this case, it references the Nick attack.

In terms of Dual Wielder being useful, bear in mind that the traditional use of this sort of feat isn't to enable dual wielding. It's to enable dual wielding with standard weapons - which is precisely what it does.

Everything else is already covered, but I wanted to comment on this, because DW doesn't let you dual wield "standard weapons". It lets you dual wield ONE standard weapon and ONE light weapon. You cannot use DW to dual wield longswords, for example.

And if you think all the weapon juggling is too much, then you'll probably just use two light weapons with DW anyway (one of them being Nick) to maximize the number of attacks.

Quote from jl8e >>

VerilyRaze is not wrong that the Light property's extra attack is theoretically not capped.

 

They're quite wrong, actually

It's capped at one extra attack per Attack action, in addition to the further limits imposed by the availability of Bonus Actions or Nick mastery

The Light attack has two triggers:

• did you take the Attack action?
• did you attack with a weapon that has the Light property during that action?

If the answer to both those questions is yes, then congratulations, you earned yourself one (1) Bonus Action attack