With the new grappling and shoving rules in 5.5e, am I incorrect in understanding that Rage does not affect a Barbarian's grapples and shoves at all?
In the old rules, a raging Barbarian attempting a grapple or shove would roll their Athletics check against a creature with Advantage (which was, iirc the only official contested check in the game so I somewhat understand the decision to revamp it). However, because a creature targeted with a grapple now instead rolls a saving throw against the attacker's Grapple/Shove DC, and since the description for Rage says nothing about affecting a Barbarian's Grapple or Shove DCs, it is therefore no harder for creatures to escape or avoid a Raging Barbarian's grapple or shove with the new rules.
Is this intentional on part of the developers, or an oversight?
If one were to home-rule a change to allow for Rage to affect a Barbarian's grappling or shoving, which of the following would make more sense: (A) The Barbarian's DCs increase by 5 while Raging (aligned with the +5 to Passive Perception when having Advantage on Perception Checks as noted in the basic rules), or (B) Creatures roll at Disadvantage when escaping or avoiding Grapples and Shoves by a Raging Barbarian.
There's been no errata on that so far, and they fixed the Powerful Build trait, for example, so I'd say it's intended. Maybe one reason is there are no Contests as they were known in 5e/2014, as you said.
As a barbarian you get advantage on Strength checks and strength saving throws. Where does a pure Strength check come into play where it can't be covered by the Athletic skill? My reasoning is that all skills that require it to be based on strength count as a strength check. That would mean as a barbarian you have advantage while raging and using your weapons and unarmed strikes that are based on strength. That would help you hit your grapple using an unarmed strike but, It wouldn't affect the DC to break the grapple. Kind of unfortunate.
I didn't necessarily explain that well. My intent was to say that if you get advantage on a base ability, it stands to reason that anything that stems from that base ability would also be with advantage.
I didn't necessarily explain that well. My intent was to say that if you get advantage on a base ability, it stands to reason that anything that stems from that base ability would also be with advantage.
That's not the way it works. Ability checks, saves, and attack rolls are different things, and effects that add to one do not apply to the other unless stated as doing so (however, skill checks are ability checks).
As a barbarian you get advantage on Strength checks and strength saving throws. Where does a pure Strength check come into play where it can't be covered by the Athletic skill? My reasoning is that all skills that require it to be based on strength count as a strength check. That would mean as a barbarian you have advantage while raging and using your weapons and unarmed strikes that are based on strength. That would help you hit your grapple using an unarmed strike but, It wouldn't affect the DC to break the grapple. Kind of unfortunate.
I didn't necessarily explain that well. My intent was to say that if you get advantage on a base ability, it stands to reason that anything that stems from that base ability would also be with advantage.
I'm not sure you understood my question; Grapples and shoves don't use an ability check anymore. The creature targeted by the grapple or shove rolls a saving throw (Dex or Str) instead. As such, grapples and shoves are unaffected by Rage because it doesn't explicitly state it affects those DCs.
There's been no errata on that so far, and they fixed the Powerful Build trait, for example, so I'd say it's intended. Maybe one reason is there are no Contests as they were known in 5e/2014, as you said.
If I had to choose between A and B, I'd choose B.
Yeah I have to assume it was intended as well since there's been no sage advice or errata (yet), but ever since the new rules first came out it hasn't quite set right with me. A raging barbarian gets all kinds of benefits to their strength except grapples and shoves now, which feels like an oversight. I feel like it ruins the immersion of being a hulked out badass that can dominate the highland games and kick the crap out of everyone with no issue, but when you try to push a wizard into a locker that extra oomph disappears. 🤷♀️
As a barbarian you get advantage on Strength checks and strength saving throws. Where does a pure Strength check come into play where it can't be covered by the Athletic skill? My reasoning is that all skills that require it to be based on strength count as a strength check. That would mean as a barbarian you have advantage while raging and using your weapons and unarmed strikes that are based on strength. That would help you hit your grapple using an unarmed strike but, It wouldn't affect the DC to break the grapple. Kind of unfortunate.
I didn't necessarily explain that well. My intent was to say that if you get advantage on a base ability, it stands to reason that anything that stems from that base ability would also be with advantage.
Attacks with weapons or unarmed strikes are not strength checks, they are D20 tests now so they wouldn't have advantage from that feature. I do agree that a strength skill check would benefit though. Reckless Attack would give advantage on attacks and unarmed strikes iirc.
I just wasn't thinking and completely forgot about reckless attack too until I re read. Do you still have to make an unarmed strike that successfully hits in order to choose the option to grapple or shove?
I just wasn't thinking and completely forgot about reckless attack too until I re read. Do you still have to make an unarmed strike that successfully hits in order to choose the option to grapple or shove?
You never did in 5.5e. Unarmed Strike has three options: Damage, Grapple, or Shove. Only Damage requires an attack roll. The others jump straight to the save.
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With the new grappling and shoving rules in 5.5e, am I incorrect in understanding that Rage does not affect a Barbarian's grapples and shoves at all?
In the old rules, a raging Barbarian attempting a grapple or shove would roll their Athletics check against a creature with Advantage (which was, iirc the only official contested check in the game so I somewhat understand the decision to revamp it). However, because a creature targeted with a grapple now instead rolls a saving throw against the attacker's Grapple/Shove DC, and since the description for Rage says nothing about affecting a Barbarian's Grapple or Shove DCs, it is therefore no harder for creatures to escape or avoid a Raging Barbarian's grapple or shove with the new rules.
Is this intentional on part of the developers, or an oversight?
If one were to home-rule a change to allow for Rage to affect a Barbarian's grappling or shoving, which of the following would make more sense: (A) The Barbarian's DCs increase by 5 while Raging (aligned with the +5 to Passive Perception when having Advantage on Perception Checks as noted in the basic rules), or (B) Creatures roll at Disadvantage when escaping or avoiding Grapples and Shoves by a Raging Barbarian.
Thoughts?
There's been no errata on that so far, and they fixed the Powerful Build trait, for example, so I'd say it's intended. Maybe one reason is there are no Contests as they were known in 5e/2014, as you said.
If I had to choose between A and B, I'd choose B.
As a barbarian you get advantage on Strength checks and strength saving throws. Where does a pure Strength check come into play where it can't be covered by the Athletic skill? My reasoning is that all skills that require it to be based on strength count as a strength check. That would mean as a barbarian you have advantage while raging and using your weapons and unarmed strikes that are based on strength. That would help you hit your grapple using an unarmed strike but, It wouldn't affect the DC to break the grapple. Kind of unfortunate.
I didn't necessarily explain that well. My intent was to say that if you get advantage on a base ability, it stands to reason that anything that stems from that base ability would also be with advantage.
It appears to be a deliberate change, since they removed the advantage on saves from Powerful Build.
That's not the way it works. Ability checks, saves, and attack rolls are different things, and effects that add to one do not apply to the other unless stated as doing so (however, skill checks are ability checks).
I'm not sure you understood my question; Grapples and shoves don't use an ability check anymore. The creature targeted by the grapple or shove rolls a saving throw (Dex or Str) instead. As such, grapples and shoves are unaffected by Rage because it doesn't explicitly state it affects those DCs.
Yeah I have to assume it was intended as well since there's been no sage advice or errata (yet), but ever since the new rules first came out it hasn't quite set right with me. A raging barbarian gets all kinds of benefits to their strength except grapples and shoves now, which feels like an oversight. I feel like it ruins the immersion of being a hulked out badass that can dominate the highland games and kick the crap out of everyone with no issue, but when you try to push a wizard into a locker that extra oomph disappears. 🤷♀️
Attacks with weapons or unarmed strikes are not strength checks, they are D20 tests now so they wouldn't have advantage from that feature. I do agree that a strength skill check would benefit though. Reckless Attack would give advantage on attacks and unarmed strikes iirc.
I just wasn't thinking and completely forgot about reckless attack too until I re read. Do you still have to make an unarmed strike that successfully hits in order to choose the option to grapple or shove?
You never did in 5.5e. Unarmed Strike has three options: Damage, Grapple, or Shove. Only Damage requires an attack roll. The others jump straight to the save.