Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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As the target is chanting esoteric words, making forceful gesticulation and/or accessing material components or Spellcasting focus with its hand, it takes life-draining necrotic damage is how i'd describe it.
I clarified this already. My stance is, That concentration does start after the spell is cast. And, The damage you take can only occur after the spell is cast as well. Not when attempting to cast, not while casting, after the spell is cast and fully active AND in the past participle form of "cast": casted. The spell fully takes effect and as soon as this happens, the necrotic damage triggers. The damage trigger a concentration save. A failed save triggers the almost immediate loss of the casted spell. Could that be any more clear? I do see that you disagree and I think that makes less sense than what I believe. Agree to disagree I guess.
Following this very simple train of logical, procedural order of events, many normal people would come to the conclusion that the damage you take after the spell was completed may cause you to roll concentration at that point.
If this is really hard to understand take this example. The conditions are: If I ask you "do you want to go with me to a movie?", This will allow you to reply, "no". If I ask you "do you want to go...?"and then you cut me off and answer, "no", You just interrupted me for no reason with no triggering condition. The second sentence of yours that I put in bold print is exactly the example I listed.
Go read the wording of Counterspell, it describes exactly the timing that you're talking about where I put your text in bold. You are basically giving the Cantrip this same timing and if they wanted that, I'm sure they could use the same wording that Counterspell has. But they did not.
The tense in Vengeful Blade is present, not past, and it doesn't say the target take damage after the spell is cast;
The trigger for Counterspell is when you see a creature within 60 feet of yourself casting a spell with Verbal, Somatic, or Material components. This is present tense as well, just like Vengeful Blade. Spell component occur when you cast the spell, not after you casted it. So when Vengeful Blade's target cast a spell is when it takes necrotic damage from my understanding. You're all free to interpret differently.
If the damage is enough to kill the target, does their spell still take effect?
The necrotic damage happens after the spell is cast, not while it's being cast.
pronouns: he/she/they
Killing a creature before it complete casting a spell fails.
Yea I have to agree with @Plaguescarred here. The damage triggers upon casting the spell meaning that it comes before the current spells effects have come into effect and thus before any concentration have started (could still need a concentration save for any previously cast spell though). And any death from the damage would also happen before the spell effects come into play.
I think you mean that the spell fails, not killing fails, but the sentence is missing a word or two. :)
And, in rare cases, concentration for the spells you are casting. I already mentioned spells with a casting time longer than a minute, but it also applies to Circle Magic, which may be more likely to come up in combat.
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My houserulings.
I disagree with this interpretation quite strongly. The necrotic damage from the Vengeful Blade feature occurs after the attack is made or after the spell is cast. It happens as a result of one of those things happening. Or, in other words, one of those things happening triggers that damage. Narratively, the dark aura of energy senses that one of these activities has happened and then punishes the target for doing it.
Vengeful Blade:
"If the target makes an attack or casts a spell before then, the target takes 1d8 necrotic damage"
and: "At 5th level . . . the damage the target takes for making an attack or casting a spell increases to 2d8."
VS
Counterspell:
"You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell."
and: "a Reaction which you take when you see a creature . . . casting a spell"
The meanings in these two features are different. The wording looks similar, but this is just one of those cases where the English language is just more confusing than many other languages.
Example:
Dinner time is at 6:00. At 5:00, Johnny's mother could see Johnny eating dinner. At 7:00 Johnny was sent to bed early as punishment for eating dinner too early.
Despite the similar wording, in one case the activity is currently happening and in the other case it has already happened.
The timing is not clear.
The rules refer to an interrupted spell as a cast spell. That may mean that process of casting a spell triggers the effect and the damage is taken during that action.
There is certainly room for a reading where it is cast (completed) because the spellcasting attempt ended in failure. However, there is also room for the reading that the action, bonus action, or reaction to cast the spell or continue casting the spell meets the trigger requirement for Vengeful Blade.
I don't use the Illrigger so I haven't assessed the balance of either interpretation. Saying that damage occurs after the spellcasting has completed is the more potent interpretation due to the potential impact on single action Concentration spells. Ongoing spells, like Hex that were in effect before another spell was cast will be impacted regardless of the interpretation used.
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My houserulings.
It doesn't say that though. Look at what you've just quoted. It says "more time to cast" and "while you cast a spell". It's describing the casting of the spell as a time-consuming process. The spell isn't actually cast until that process is complete. Spells such as Counterspell are specifically written to be able to interrupt this process before the spell is cast.
From the above quote: "If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot." This doesn't say that the spell has been cast. It says that the spell fails, meaning, the spellcasting process has failed which means that the spell effect fails to be released into existence. We also know that the spell wasn't cast because of the explicit mention that the spell slot was not used. This aligns with the mechanic described in the 2024 Counterspell which fixed something that didn't make sense about how the 2014 spell was written -- that it could interrupt the spellcasting but somehow the spell slot was used. Now, with the 2024 Counterspell, the spell slot is not used because the spell wasn't actually cast.
It's the same idea with this ability. Whenever something in the game declares that something happens "when a spell is cast", it means when it was actually cast, not when the spellcaster first lifts up his finger to begin reaching for his spellcasting focus to begin the process.
As mentioned earlier, really the only mechanic where the resulting spell effect could be prevented with this trigger is for a Readied spell because in that case there is a delay between the casting of the spell and the release of the spell effect. Otherwise, once the spell has been cast, it's too late to prevent the effect.
Yeah that's what i meant i should have word it better 😀
To me, "To cast the spell again, you must start over" is basically saying that if you want to cast it another time, you don't pick up where you left off or reuse any progress, you go back to the beginning of the casting process.
The reason Counterspell say you attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell is because normally In terms of timing, a Reaction takes place immediately after its trigger unless the Reaction’s description says otherwise.
Vengeful Blade has nothing to do with Counterspell and doesn't use a Reaction, if you make an attack roll or cast a spell, you take necrotic damage and the spell's dark aura of energy you radiate ends.
That's also how i understand it.
By the way, this nice conversation reminded me of this thread I created about Longer Casting Time using the 2024 rules: 2024 Bonus Action or Reaction spells while casting spells with Longer Casting Times
The tense is actually not present tense. " If the target makes an attack or casts a spell before then, the target takes 1d8 necrotic damage and the spell ends." This sentence requires you to understand what future tense with "if statements" are.
Without abusing the English language and making bad faith interpretations, normal people would understand that "casts" as you underlined above, is something that must be completed before another thing occurs.
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This means if you want to try to attempt to cast the spell again. Not that you casted anything, you failed and must start over, Pretty simple.