Where did we land on Invocation spells being Warlock spells?

I think this is a rare gap in the 5.5 rules that probably requires a DM adjudication, and I agree with *checks notes* everybody here that any sane DM would allow it to count as a Warlock spell for the purposes of class features that affect Warlock spells. Frankly, I was just curious if Tarod could dredge up a tweet/SAC on it or not.

Quote from RWinnie >>

I think this is a rare gap in the 5.5 rules that probably requires a DM adjudication, and I agree with *checks notes* everybody here that any sane DM would allow it to count as a Warlock spell for the purposes of class features that affect Warlock spells. Frankly, I was just curious if Tarod could dredge up a tweet/SAC on it or not.

 AFAIK, there's no clarification yet. Tweets are no longer an official source, only SAC since it was created. And it doesn't say anything about this, other than Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells? or A Wizard multiclasses into a Sorcerer with the Wild Magic Sorcery subclass. Do spells cast from their spellbook trigger Wild Magic Surge if they are on the Sorcerer spell list, or do they have to gain them from Sorcerer to trigger?, both related to your question.

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

I fundamentally disagree that plague's answer is RAW -- again, if you get to a place where your "RAW" leaves you with no way to determine the DC on a saving throw, the assumption should not be that it's WOTC that have screwed up

Show me the rules text that explicitly says spells gained via Invocations do not count as Warlock spells

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

It's not really an interpretation, this isn't actually a rule that's unclearly written, it's a rule that's dumb and you should houserule. 

Agreed. And when you house rule it I suggest going the route of saying "it is a warlock spell" to give you clear answers on spellcasting ability and the use of a focus but not say that "it count as always prepared" as that adds more benefits that probably aren't meant to be.

 It also add the benefit of being able to prepare it and cast it with your spell slot, which isn't intended. Feature that let you cast a spell without expending a spell slot and by using any spell slots you have usually say so, unless they directly are always prepared.

Such as for example the Warlock Feature Level 9: Contact Patron you always have the Contact Other Plane spell prepared. With this feature, you can cast the spell without expending a spell slot. Once you cast the spell with this feature, you can’t do so in this way again until you finish a Long Rest. But you can cast it in other way using your spell slot since

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

 

I fundamentally disagree that plague's answer is RAW -- again, if you get to a place where your "RAW" leaves you with no way to determine the DC on a saving throw, the assumption should not be that it's WOTC that have screwed up

Show me the rules text that explicitly says spells gained via Invocations do not count as Warlock spells

 You don't gain spell that are always prepare with most of them, you are given the capacity to cast them without expending a spell slot. 

Pact Magic doesn't say

If another Warlock feature let you cast spells, those spells count as Warlock spells for you.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

 

I fundamentally disagree that plague's answer is RAW -- again, if you get to a place where your "RAW" leaves you with no way to determine the DC on a saving throw, the assumption should not be that it's WOTC that have screwed up

Show me the rules text that explicitly says spells gained via Invocations do not count as Warlock spells

 WotC didn't write clear rules in this case. It's also what I think, so the rules should be updated. 

I might be wrong in thinking that's the RAW answer, but it's what I've taken from previous discussions. However, it's not how I'm ruling it. You know mine from the previous page, but basically it's that Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells, but you can't cast them using Pact Magic slots. It also makes sense because it's your Warlock patron or your Warlock experience that's giving you those powers.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

 

I fundamentally disagree that plague's answer is RAW -- again, if you get to a place where your "RAW" leaves you with no way to determine the DC on a saving throw, the assumption should not be that it's WOTC that have screwed up

Show me the rules text that explicitly says spells gained via Invocations do not count as Warlock spells

 You don't gain spell that are always prepare with most of them, you are given the capacity to cast them without expending a spell slot. 

Pact Magic doesn't say

If another Warlock feature let you cast spells, those spells count as Warlock spells for you.

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

2) There's no set definition in the 5.5 rules for "prepared" spells, and the closest thing there is basically says "anything you can cast than isn't from an external source like a magic item counts"

Before you can cast a spell, you must have the spell prepared in your mind or have access to the spell from a magic item, such as a Spell Scroll. Your features specify which spells you have access to, if any; whether you always have certain spells prepared; and whether you can change the list of spells you have prepared.

It's fine to try and cover gray areas in the rules with your own interpretation, and this is certainly a gray area, but you don't then get to claim the authority of RAW when you do so. It's just your interpretation

Quote from AntonSirius >>

It's fine to try and cover gray areas in the rules with your own interpretation, and this is certainly a gray area, but you don't then get to claim the authority of RAW when you do so. It's just your interpretation

Eh, RAW is interpretive. Because language is interpretive, and merely an approximation of intent. (RAI is the closest thing to an appeal to authority, because it's the closest you can get to an "objective" answer, but people don't like appeals to authority when they have to interpret things.)

Anyway, I agree with you that anything like "spells gained from invocations have no casting stat" is a dumb and disfunctional interpretation. I suspect the intention was for them to be warlock spells but still not be usable with spell slots (by default).

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

 

 Pact Magic specifically say so multiple times.

Pact Magic: The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells.

Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

It's fine to try and cover gray areas in the rules with your own interpretation, and this is certainly a gray area, but you don't then get to claim the authority of RAW when you do so. It's just your interpretation

 Where did i claimed the authority fo RAW? No need to pull stawman argument here to address i didn't claim any such thing. 

Everyone here post their interpretation of RAW, we give our opinions and none is more authoritative. No need for fallacy.

Quote from AntonSirius>>

2) There's no set definition in the 5.5 rules for "prepared" spells, and the closest thing there is basically says "anything you can cast than isn't from an external source like a magic item counts"

 The Spell Section address

• Preparing Spells 
• Always-Prepared Spells 

The passage refers to spells you gain, such as when you learn them. An Invocation saying you can cast Mage Armor on yourself without expending a spell slot is not always prepared that  don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with Pact Magic, and if it was counting as prepared, it would thus count against the number of Prepared Spellsm and could be Changing Your Prepared Spells. I don't think these ramifications are intended. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Plaguescarred is right in #12 or in #14 if you want a RAW answer.

I fundamentally disagree that plague's answer is RAW -- again, if you get to a place where your "RAW" leaves you with no way to determine the DC on a saving throw, the assumption should not be that it's WOTC that have screwed up

Plaguescarred's answer can be RAW and WotC can also have screwed up. But let's look at this more simply.

What's the problem? What's the Attack Modifier and Save DC for invocations?

Saving Throws

Many spells specify that a target makes a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure. Here’s how to calculate the DC for your spells:

Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus

Attack Rolls

Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell hits a target. Here’s how to calculate the attack modifier for your spells:

Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus

A Warlock's spellcasting ability modifier is Charisma. Spellcasting from feats and species has to specify the spellcasting ability modifier because they may be providing spellcasting to classes that otherwise do not have a defined spellcasting ability modifier. It is not a requirement of all sources of spells you can cast to tell you what your spellcasting modifier is because some do. The Warlock class ensures that you have a defined spellcasting ability modifier so Invocations do not need to define one.

It works the same way the magic items use your predefined spellcasting ability modifier or +0 except that Warlocks are guaranteed to have a spellcasting ability modifier defined.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Show me the rules text that explicitly says spells gained via Invocations do not count as Warlock spells

Show me the rules text that explicitly say I can't one-shot a Tarrasque by sneezing. That's not how that this works. You show us the rules that says explicitly that spells from Invocations are Warlock spells or considered always prepared. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

Exactly. It says:

If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.

Warlock Invocations, per RAW are never prepared.

Quote from RWinnie >>

I think this is a rare gap in the 5.5 rules that probably requires a DM adjudication, and I agree with *checks notes* everybody here that any sane DM would allow it to count as a Warlock spell for the purposes of class features that affect Warlock spells. Frankly, I was just curious if Tarod could dredge up a tweet/SAC on it or not.

Did I just add a hot take that they work just fine according to RAW without making them Warlock spells?

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

It's fine to try and cover gray areas in the rules with your own interpretation, and this is certainly a gray area, but you don't then get to claim the authority of RAW when you do so. It's just your interpretation

 Where did i claimed the authority fo RAW?

RAW means Rules As Written. It carries implicit authority as the actual text of the rules. RAI carries lesser authority as the intent of the rules writers, as opposed to what they actually wrote

I have never claimed my interpretation of something is RAW unless I can actually point to where it's actually written. I don't even claim my position on this issue is RAW, because there's nothing one way or the other that says "Spells granted via Invocations are Warlock spells"

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

 

 Pact Magic specifically say so multiple times.

Pact Magic: The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells.

Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5.

Nothing you just quoted says "Warlock spells must use a spell slot"

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Nothing you just quoted says "Warlock spells must use a spell slot"

Nothing will. To be a Warlock spell, they have to be on the Warlock spell list, a feature must explicitly add it to your Warlock spell list, or it must always be prepared.

Warlock Invocations are never prepared and therefore meet none of the requirements. Only One with Shadows is an exception for the base Warlock because Invisibility is already on the Warlock spell list.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

It's fine to try and cover gray areas in the rules with your own interpretation, and this is certainly a gray area, but you don't then get to claim the authority of RAW when you do so. It's just your interpretation

 Where did i claimed the authority fo RAW?

 

RAW means Rules As Written. It carries implicit authority as the actual text of the rules. RAI carries lesser authority as the intent of the rules writers, as opposed to what they actually wrote

I have never claimed my interpretation of something is RAW unless I can actually point to where it's actually written. I don't even claim my position on this issue is RAW, because there's nothing one way or the other that says "Spells granted via Invocations are Warlock spells"

 I don't really get what you say any authority i claimed exactly. Regardless, everyone is allowed to share their RAW interpretation of the rules as explained in the definition of RAW and RAI from Sage Advice Compendium. 

RAW

“Rules as written”—that’s what RAW stands for. When we dwell on the RAW interpretation of a rule, we’re studying what the text says in context, without regard to the designers’ intent. The text is forced to stand on its own.

When we consider a rule, we start with this perspective; it’s important for us to see what you see, not what we wished we’d published or thought we’d published.

---

RAI

Some of you are especially interested in knowing the intent behind a rule. That’s where RAI comes in: “rules as intended.” This approach is all about what the designers meant when they wrote something. In a perfect world, RAW and RAI align perfectly, but sometimes the words on the page don’t succeed at communicating the designers’ intent. Or perhaps the words succeed with one group of players but not with another.

When we write about the RAI interpretation of a rule, we pull back the curtain and let you know what the D&D team meant when writing that rule.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

A Warlock's spellcasting ability modifier is Charisma.

That's actually not quite accurate, per strict RAW

A warlock's Primary Ability is Charisma. Their Spellcasting Ability is also Charisma, but only for their Pact Magic and Warlock spells. Because that's the specific feature it's listed under, and what is specified

Level 1: Pact Magic

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.

For every other caster class, that distinction doesn't really matter, because their main spellcasting feature is the only way they can cast spells. For warlocks, they have an entire other feature that gives them spellcasting ability in Invocations

That's why there's a grey area

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

Quote from AntonSirius>>

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

Exactly. It says:

If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.

Warlock Invocations, per RAW are never prepared.

There is no definition in the rules of what a "prepared spell" is. No Glossary entry, no little box somewhere spelling (cough) is out

So for you to be so sure "per RAW" that they are never prepared, you must have a Rule As Written that says so. Where is it?

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

 

 Pact Magic specifically say so multiple times.

Pact Magic: The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells.

Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5.

 

Nothing you just quoted says "Warlock spells must use a spell slot"

 You use spell slots to cast your Warlock spells. Some spells may count as Warlock spells and not use a spell slot to cast though, which is different. 

A prime example is when Contact Patron makes Contact Other Plane count as a Warlock spell for you being always prepared, which you can cast without expending a spell slot.