Where did we land on Invocation spells being Warlock spells?

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 

1) Invocations are a Warlock class feature, and some Invocations let you cast spells. Nothing in Pact Magic says using a spell slot is required for them to qualify as Warlock spells

 

 Pact Magic specifically say so multiple times.

Pact Magic: The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells.

Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5.

 

Nothing you just quoted says "Warlock spells must use a spell slot"

 You use spell slots to cast your Warlock spells. Some spells may count as Warlock spells and not use a spell slot to cast though, which is different. 

A prime example is when Contact Patron makes Contact Other Plane count as a Warlock spell for you being always prepared, which you can cast without expending a spell slot.

So your proof that Warlock spells are defined by the requirement that they use spell slots is a Warlock spell you can cast without a spell slot... ?

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

A Warlock's spellcasting ability modifier is Charisma.

 

That's actually not quite accurate, per strict RAW

A warlock's Primary Ability is Charisma. Their Spellcasting Ability is also Charisma, but only for their Pact Magic and Warlock spells. Because that's the specific feature it's listed under, and what is specified

Level 1: Pact Magic

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.

 

For every other caster class, that distinction doesn't really matter, because their main spellcasting feature is the only way they can cast spells. For warlocks, they have an entire other feature that gives them spellcasting ability in Invocations

That's why there's a grey area

Pact Magic is the spellcasting feature with which you use your spellcasting ability and spellcasting focus to cast Warlock spells.

Other feature Invocation or Contact Patron letting cast spells don't qualify with Pact Magic unless they count as Warlock spells, which do so ''If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared''

Which goes back to the first thing i said in this thread : If an Eldritch Invocations gives you spells that you do not always have prepared, those spells don’t count as Warlock spells for you.

Quote from AntonSirius >> 

So your proof that Warlock spells are defined by the requirement that they use spell slots is a Warlock spell you can cast without a spell slot... ?

 No i was just trying to show an exemple that exceptions exist. Another one is the Invocation One With Shadows with which you can cast Invisibility on yourself without expending a spell slot despite also being a Warlock spell.

For you to cast Invisibility with the Pact Magic feature, you need to prepare it normally and cast it with a spell slot. Because the Invocation One With Shadows doesn't say Invisibility is always prepared to not count against the number of spells you can prepare, it would. 

Insisting all spells from Invocation are prepared would make them count against the number of spells you can prepare which are few enought. To my understanding  spells from Invocation can be cast indenpendently of Pact Magic because Invocations say you can cast them.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Insisting all spells from Invocation are prepared would make them count against the number of spells you can prepare

That's... not even close to true

Level 1: Pact Magic

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature.

My impression is that you don't understand that Pact Magic is a separate class feature

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

A Warlock's spellcasting ability modifier is Charisma.

That's actually not quite accurate, per strict RAW

Yes. It's exactly accurate, per strict RAW. Every single class defines their spellcasting ability in the same way.

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC because the spell doesn't care if it's a Warlock spell or not. An Invocation uses their Warlock Spell Save and Warlock Spell Attack Modifier. If an Invocation effect refers to a spellcasting modifier, a Warlock would use Charisma, because that is the spellcasting ability they have defined.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

A warlock's Primary Ability is Charisma. Their Spellcasting Ability is also Charisma, but only for their Pact Magic and Warlock spells. Because that's the specific feature it's listed under, and what is specified

Level 1: Pact Magic

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.

Their Warlock spells must use Charisma, but that's not the same thing as not having a spellcasting ability defined. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

For every other caster class, that distinction doesn't really matter, because their main spellcasting feature is the only way they can cast spells. For warlocks, they have an entire other feature that gives them spellcasting ability in Invocations

This is false.

When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's.

When a Cartographer Artificer uses Superior Atlas to cast Find the Path, it is the same scenario.

When a Circle of Dreams Druid casts Dream, it is the same scenario.

There are probably more.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC

Quote from AntonSirius>>

A warlock's Primary Ability is Charisma. Their Spellcasting Ability is also Charisma, but only for their Pact Magic and Warlock spells. Because that's the specific feature it's listed under, and what is specified

Level 1: Pact Magic

Spellcasting Ability. Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells.

Their Warlock spells must use Charisma, but that's not the same thing as not having a spellcasting ability defined. 

 The argument that invocation spells aren't warlock spells is really an argument that the RAW is busted.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC

Magic items, as far as I know, universally have a defined save value. [Tooltip Not Found] has it be 15, which seems to be normal for wands.

Your tooltip didn't work.

Your statement is true for most magic items, but not all. Staves for example, use your own modifier. In addition, Spell Attack Bonuses and Save DCs are not the only thing that uses your Spellcasting Ability.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC

Magic items, as far as I know, universally have a defined save value. [Tooltip Not Found] has it be 15, which seems to be normal for wands.

Your tooltip didn't work.

Your statement is true for most magic items, but not all. Staves for example, use your own modifier. In addition, Spell Attack Bonuses and Save DCs are not the only thing that uses your Spellcasting Ability.

 

Certain staves will state they run off your spellcasting DC. Others, like Enspelled Staff run on fixed stats.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC

Magic items, as far as I know, universally have a defined save value. [Tooltip Not Found] has it be 15, which seems to be normal for wands.

Your tooltip didn't work.

Your statement is true for most magic items, but not all. Staves for example, use your own modifier. In addition, Spell Attack Bonuses and Save DCs are not the only thing that uses your Spellcasting Ability.

Certain staves will state they run off your spellcasting DC. Others, like Enspelled Staff run on fixed stats.

So, what you are saying is that you agree that there are magic items that use the wielder's spellcasting attribute. Got it.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

 My impression is that you don't understand that Pact Magic is a separate class feature

 Your impression are wrong then because i fully understand that Pact Magic is a seperate class feature than Eldritch Invocations.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's.

Conjured Cauldron. You can cast Tasha’s Bubbling Cauldron without expending a spell slot, without preparing the spell, and without Material components, provided you use Alchemist’s Supplies as the Spellcasting Focus. Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a Long Rest.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Your impression are wrong then because i fully understand that Pact Magic is a seperate class feature than Eldritch Invocations.

Then why would you think spells granted by a completely different class feature would count against the list of spells you prepare via Pact Magic?

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

Your impression are wrong then because i fully understand that Pact Magic is a seperate class feature than Eldritch Invocations.

 

Then why would you think spells granted by a completely different class feature would count against the list of spells you prepare via Pact Magic?

They are not prepared via Pact Magic nor does Eldritch Invocations say;

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature.

My conclusion is that spells cast via Eldritch Invocations are not prepared unless noted otherwise, having access to the spell from the feature similar to magic items. For example;

Invocation Pact of the Tome grant you spells prepared that function as Warlock spells for you, using Pact Magic to cast them while expending a spell slot as needed.

Invocation Ascendant Step You can cast Levitate on yourself without expending a spell slot or having it prepared, nor does it function as Warlock spells for you.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

[...] When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's. [...]

 By Mystra! I'd rule it's based on your Intelligence, but... who knows?

(EDIT: at least, the Alchemist’s Supplies Spellcasting Focus is mentioned)

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

[...] When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's. [...]

 By Mystra! I'd rule it's based on your Intelligence, but... who knows?

 We all know. It's an artificer feature, casting a spell. You use the artificer's casting stat.

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5>>

This is the same reason why a Warlock casting a spell from a magic item uses Charisma (unless the rules for the specific item overrule the general). Just like Magic Items, Invocations don't care how you have a spellcasting ability defined, only that you have one. A Warlock casting Wand of Polymorph uses their Warlock Spell Save DC

Magic items, as far as I know, universally have a defined save value. [Tooltip Not Found] has it be 15, which seems to be normal for wands.

Your tooltip didn't work.

Your statement is true for most magic items, but not all. Staves for example, use your own modifier. In addition, Spell Attack Bonuses and Save DCs are not the only thing that uses your Spellcasting Ability.

Certain staves will state they run off your spellcasting DC. Others, like Enspelled Staff run on fixed stats.

So, what you are saying is that you agree that there are magic items that use the wielder's spellcasting attribute. Got it.

 
Wow, been a minute since someone crammed words down my throat that aggressively. On review, that does seem to be the trend in the 2024 DMG, but I would appreciate it if you simply expanded on your own points rather than telling me what I’m saying, particularly when that was not the point I raised. The staves do tend to specify that they’ll use your stats to cast spells, but it’s not a written universal property of that category.

The Level 15: Chemical Mastery feature also doesn't determine your spellcasting ability modifier for Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron but many DM will use Inteligence anyways. As the rules say;

Spellcasting. Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

[...] When an Alchemist Artificer uses Chemical Mastery, they can cast Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, how many potions can they produce? It's not a spell on the Artificer spell list and the Artificer's Spellcasting ability is worded exactly like the Warlock's. [...]

 By Mystra! I'd rule it's based on your Intelligence, but... who knows?

 We all know. It's an artificer feature, casting a spell. You use the artificer's casting stat.

As a  hail mary I looked through the 5.5 character creation section of the PHB in case there might be something helpful, but nope, it's the exact opposite

Spellcasting. Note both the saving throw DC for your spells and the attack bonus for attacks you make with them, using these formulas:

Spell save DC = 8 + spellcasting ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus

Spell attack bonus = spellcasting ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus

Your spellcasting ability modifier for a spell is determined by whatever feature gives you the ability to cast the spell.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Quote from SmiteMakesRight_3_5 >>

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Certain staves will state they run off your spellcasting DC. Others, like Enspelled Staff run on fixed stats.

So, what you are saying is that you agree that there are magic items that use the wielder's spellcasting attribute. Got it.

 
Wow, been a minute since someone crammed words down my throat that aggressively. On review, that does seem to be the trend in the 2024 DMG, but I would appreciate it if you simply expanded on your own points rather than telling me what I’m saying, particularly when that was not the point I raised. The staves do tend to specify that they’ll use your stats to cast spells, but it’s not a written universal property of that category.

My goal was humor. My apologies for any offense. I have to say that I don't see what identifying staves that use a set attack bonus and save DC adds to the conversation if it does not disprove that there are magic items that use your own spellcasting modifier. What exactly is the point?